On Works in salvation

[Milliardo]

**QUOTE=bene7]JOHN 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”]quote]

Other version has it as condemnation, and I think the point of this verse is pretty clear, in that those who believe in Him will not be condemned, but indeed will have eternal life.

It would be unjust, indeed, to judge someone twice for the same crime, right? If God judged and condemned His Son (on the cross) for my sins in my stead, and He died, then based on His justice (His Day of Judgment on my sins 2000 years ago), Jesus is right

This would then negate any responsibility on our part, if we follow your way of thinking. Yet Jesus is also very clear in showing us God’s Judgment: all will be judged, as Paul attests as well in Romans 2:6. Paul isn’t making any exception there, but emphasized a point, that everyone, without excpetion, will be judged. Now, has God judged us when Jesus died on the Cross? No, or else Jesus is making a frivolous teaching in Matthew 25:31ff. And yet, indeed, isn’t Jesus’ words truth?

No man goes to Hell because of sins.

Based on the Bible, sin=unbelief, for when one sins, one is then saying, in his act of sin, that he does not believe in Jesus’ command, and indeed, is rebelling against it.

 

[bhlincoln]

Montie Claunch:

Hello everyone. I am discussing the relations of good works with faith in salvation with a gentleman on another forum. I was hoping, if it isn’t to much of a bother, if ya’ll could look at the thread and give me some suggestions on what to say? Thanks and God bless.

cbworldview.cesbooks.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39

These two sections on my site cover this topic quite well:

protestanterrors.com/#10
protestanterrors.com/#29

BH

 

[bene7]

[Other version has it as condemnation, and I think the point of this verse is pretty clear, in that those who believe in Him will not be condemned, but indeed will have eternal life.

“Condemnation,” “judgment,” same thing, one being condemned via judgment.

This would then negate any responsibility on our part, if we follow your way of thinking.

How do you figure it’s my way of thinking? You didn’t respond to the other verses I gave you concerning God’s Judgment Day on sin, and He cancelling out the certificate of debt against us (i.e., believers), having nailed it to the cross, taking it out of the way. Which all has to do with Christ taking upon Himself the believer’s judgment in his stead.

Yet Jesus is also very clear in showing us God’s Judgment: all will be judged, as Paul attests as well in Romans 2:6.

In Romans chapters one and two Paul is building his argument that both Jews (who had the commandments of God) and Gentiles (who followed after paganism) are both “under sin”:

ROM. 3:9 "*What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged * that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

Once that truth that ALL MEN are under sin is established, he presents the Gospel of God’s GRACE toward all sinners, both Jew and Gentile, through faith in Jesus Christ:

Paul isn’t making any exception there, but emphasized a point, that everyone, without excpetion, will be judged.

That’s right, in the first two chapters of Romans Paul makes no exceptions, he demonstrates that ALL are “under sin.” But in chapters three through eight he reveals HOW all men are* justified* freely before God - and that’s through faith in Christ Jesus and what He accomplished FOR THEM through His substitutionary sacrifice on the cross.

ROM. 3:23-24 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus"

You can’t just read,or quote from, chapter two by itself. Paul’s building an argument and making a ponit. So you must go on to chapters three and four to see his conclusion.

Now, has God judged us when Jesus died on the Cross? No, or else Jesus is making a frivolous teaching in Matthew 25:31ff. And yet, indeed, isn’t Jesus’ words truth?

You’re missing the whole point, Milliardo, in fact, you’re missing the whole Gospel message concerning Christ. Christ went to the cross so that men might not have to be judged for their sins, that they might not have stand judgment. Christ Himself took upon Himself our sins AND was judged guilty, in our stead, because of our sins. That’s why He died. It’s called a substitutionary sin-sacrifice. God had His judgment Day on our sins 2000 years ago at the cross of Christ. And because of that work of Christ, God us just when He freely justifies all who believe in His Son, i.e., what He’s done for them.

ROM. 4:25 "He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification."

Based on the Bible, sin=unbelief, for when one sins, one is then saying, in his act of sin, that he does not believe in Jesus’ command, and indeed, is rebelling against it.

Not true. Unbelief is refusing to believe (refusing to personally accept) what Christ accomplished on the cross FOR YOU. All men intuitively know they’ve sinned.

**Matt 25:31ff ** in context is when Jesus returns to this earth as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (see Rev. 19) to set up His earthly, Millennial Kingdom. At that time those who are living on the earth are judged and separated as either “sheep” or “goats.” Sheep are believers, goats unbelievers. The “sheep” are ushered into the Christ’s earthly,. Messianic Kingdom. The final judgment of all unbelievers won’t take place until 1000 years later (see Rev. 20:7-15). This is called the “second death,” which is the “Lake of Fire.”

Blessings,
Bene
[/quote]

 

[reen12]

quote: Milliardo

Based on the Bible, sin=unbelief, for when one sins, one is then saying, in his act of sin, that he does not believe in Jesus’ command, and indeed, is rebelling against it.

quote:bene7

Not true. Unbelief is refusing to believe (refusing to personally accept) what Christ accomplished on the cross FOR YOU. All men intuitively know they’ve sinned.

faith = to personally accept Jesus as Savior and Lord,
and to live out this faith, by obedience to His commands.

Paul wrote: Why is it that I do the things that I do not
want to do…? [sin?] - and yet he, surely, accepted Christ
as his personal Savior. He had faith.

Christ said, over and over, in the gospels:

Go thy way, thy faith has saved thee…
Do you believe that I can do this for you…?
[Do I believe that He can save me? That my
justification and righteousness are in Him…
that my following His commands neither saves
nor justifies me…Jesus saves…yet, not following
His commands can forfeit the salvation offered?

• not living out this faith.]

[It is in this context, that judgement has cogency,
vis a vis faith.
“Depart from Me, I never knew you…”
“Not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will enter
the Kingdom of Heaven, rather those who do the
will of My Father in Heaven.”
[obedience to His commands; living out this faith]

If by “works” is meant: I can increase my justification
[Trent], that is one position, theologically.

If by “works” is meant: I follow the commands of
Christ -out of obedience - yet seeing my complete
justifcation in Him solus Christus] - that’s the position
of the solas: sola fides, sola gratia, sola scriptura,
*solus Christus. *My obedience "works’] adds not
one wit, to my justification, which is from Christ, alone.
solus Christus.]

That Christ will reward each of us, based on how we
lived out our faith in Him, is attested in the gospels:
“Whoever gives a cup of water, in My name…”

Yet reward is not “increasing” justification.
Justification is through Christ, alone. Solus Christus.
Trent confused “reward” and “justification.”
[Trent Session VI Canon 24]


However, if one wishes to contend that my personal
sins…past, present and future…were nailed to the cross
in such a way that I do not need to repent of sins past,
present, and sins to come…that I’d have a major
problem with.

“Love means never having to say you’re sorry.”

I…don’t…*think…*so…

Best regards, :tiphat:

reen12

 

[Milliardo]

“Condemnation,” “judgment,” same thing, one being condemned via judgment

Then do you agree that we will be judged, but that those who believed and obeyed the Lord will not be condemned?

How do you figure it’s my way of thinking?

You posted your thoughts based on how you understand things, as simplte as that…

How do you figure it’s my way of thinking?

You posted your thoughts based on how you understand things, as simplte as that…

You didn’t respond to the other verses I gave you concerning God’s Judgment Day on sin

For this discussion, let us then look briefly on the verses you cited.

Col. 2:13-14–Paul only notes here that Jesus’ death on the Cross forgives our sins if we put our faith in Him; it doesn’t address Judgment Day in any way. In the first place, both Catholics and Protestants agree that we will be judged once Christ’s Second Coming is at hand. It’s an agreement that we both share. So the verses you cited in no way negate that view. But let us get something clear here: to believe doesn’t merely mean to know Christ, but to follow and obey Him, and that would mean not being lukewarm, but being alive, and being alive would mean living out our faith, right?

Rom. 3:9–again, Paul only notes here that we are all sinners; does that again negate Judgment Day?

That’s right, in the first two chapters of Romans Paul makes no exceptions, he demonstrates that ALL are “under sin.”

You are dodging the whole point: Paul here notes that we will all be judged according to our works or deeds; this is perfectly in line with what Jesus said regarding Judgment Day in Matthew 25:31ff. Please show us where does Paul imply that we will not be judged.

But in chapters three through eight he reveals HOW all men are* justified* freely before God

Does that then negate Paul’s view regarding Judgment Day? Please see my point above.

You can’t just read,or quote from, chapter two by itself. Paul’s building an argument and making a ponit. So you must go on to chapters three and four to see his conclusion

Again, does that negate what Paul said in chapter 2:5-8? See, Paul is only echoing Christ’s words in Matthew 25:31ff. Can Paul, who is a servant of Christ, contradict his Master’s words then?

Christ went to the cross so that men might not have to be judged for their sins, that they might not have stand judgment.

I am sorry, but what you say does not in any way address the verses concerning Judgment; in fact, you try to wiggle yourself out of it by ignoring these verses. It seems you are in denial on this one. Again, let me repeat: both Catholics and Protestants agree that in Christ’s Second Coming we will all face Judgment. It’s an article of faith both Catholics and Protestants share, by and large. Now, you are dodging this one by making claims not even supported by the Bible, in the hopes of dodging past these verses. Please, show us, where is it said what you post here?

Not true. Unbelief is refusing to believe (refusing to personally accept) what Christ accomplished on the cross FOR YOU.

Sorry, wrong again. In the Bible, it is very clear that sin is a rejection of God. Thus, sin is equated then to unbelief, because the sinner is saying that he does not accept what Christ told him to do, and so he is rejecting Him. It is not merely not accepting what Christ did, but rejecting Christ Himself by living in sin.

At that time those who are living on the earth are judged and separated as either “sheep” or “goats.”

You said above that God has laready judged us with Jesus’ death; now you come around and say that Jesus as King will perform His duty as Judge here; which is which?

Sheep are believers, goats unbelievers.

Please show us in the text where Jesus even alludes to such a thing.

Eph. 2:8-9–I have saved this for last. Here Paul is noting that we should not boast of our works, because God has prepared them in advance for us to live in (verse 10). Paul here is not denying that good works will not save us, but that we should not boast in it. Now, how could God prepare the good works in advance for us to live in if He does not see the inherent use for it? Please refer again above to relate it to Judgment.

 

[bene7]

Milliardo:

Eph. 2:8-9–I have saved this for last. Here Paul is noting that we should not boast of our works, because God has prepared them in advance for us to live in (verse 10). Paul here is not denying that good works will not save us, but that we should not boast in it. Now, how could God prepare the good works in advance for us to live in if He does not see the inherent use for it? Please refer again above to relate it to Judgment.

Based on all you’ve said in this reply, I’m seriously wondering if you know what salvation is. So let me ask you, what is the purpose of this judgment you believe you’re going to have to stand at Christ’s return?

Bene

 

[reen12]

As to works, faith, judgement “On works in salvation”]:

“good works” consist of obedience to Christ’s commands

There is no contradiction inherent in:
-works do not save us - nor do they “increase” our justification solus Christus].
-not obeying Christ “works”] may forfeit the salvation offered

-Christ will reward us, at the judgement, consonant with how
we lived out our faith *., in what manner we lived this out…the bare minimum of obedience -
or the continual reaching out, in Christ’s love, to those around us.]

“I have run the race…”*

“Work out your salvation in fear and trembling…”

To say: “There is no judgement, for those in Christ Jesus…”

means ----> those who are in Christ are already justified and

redeemed…they will not be condemed in the Judgement.

Yet ----> “…for those who are in Christ Jesus” means…those

who follow His commands.

---

“God will not be mocked.” Gal. 6:7

Wrapping oneself in the mercy of Jesus, while not showing

mercy to others - failing to have mercy one on who is

thirsty, by giving a cup of water “works” = obedience]

isn’t going to over big before the God of Mercy, Who said:

“Many will say unto Me…”

-Didn’t I accept you as my personal Savior?

-Weren’t my sins nailed to the cross?

-Didn’t I follow what the CC said - sacraments, Church law

And, will He say?

“I was hurting, and you did not reach out to me, to ease my pain.”

“I was ill, and you didn’t come to visit me.”

"I needed to hear the good news, and you hid same under

a barrage of words…"

"I was hungry and you told me to “go in peace” and

yet you gave Me nothing to eat." James: 2: 15-16

usccb.org/nab/bible/james/james2.htm

God* is* Reality [Truth]. And the good thing about that is, He is

“reality” based…i.e. “God will not be mocked.” Gal. 6:7-9

usccb.org/nab/bible/galatians/galatians6.htm

…let us not grow weary, in doing good… Gal. 6:7-9]

---

He searches hearts, and to those who loved Him and

followed His Son…those who were Christ-like…He will

say:

“Come, enter into the joy of My Kingdom.”

And, the funny thing is, if He ends up saying:

“Depart from Me…”

the soul will recognize - in a nano-second - that:

“He is just, in all His judgements…” [Psalm 119: 137]

So, there will come judgement, and those who are in Christ…
who followed His commands…will say, not only, I am washed
in the Blood of the Lamb, but, Praise be to you, Christ Jesus,
for having given me the strength [grace] to follow Your commands -Who judges me - by not judging me worthy of eternal separation.
Who holds not my repented sins against me - for those sins are washed in Your blood, shed for me.

---

"For there remain faith, hope and charity, but the greatest
of these is charity."

“works” [obedience to the commands of Christ] will matter,
and matter a great deal - for without same, we will not see
God in the Face…for our faith will not have been a
“lively” faith, which saves: sola fides, sola gratia,
sola scriptura…solus Christus.

reen12 :tiphat:

 

[Milliardo]

bene7:

Based on all you’ve said in this reply, I’m seriously wondering if you know what salvation is. So let me ask you, what is the purpose of this judgment you believe you’re going to have to stand at Christ’s return?

First of all, do you even question what was written in the Bible itself? If you are, then you are in denial of what is plainly seen there. I think the question then should be addressed to you, since clearly you seem to reject the Last Judgment on Christ’s Second Coming.

 

[reen12]

quote: Milliardo, addressed to bene7

…do you even question what was written in the Bible itself? If you are, then you are in denial of what is plainly seen there.

Of course, that is the Protestant position toward
Catholic theology.

They “protest”:

-Has the Church not read St. Paul?
-The theology of the CC is in “denial” of that
which is “plainly” stated, by St. Paul.

“Plainly” is the operative word, here.

They might say: the Church was re-formed
to con-form with the “plain” teaching of St. Paul.

reen12

 

[bene7]

reen12:

As to works, faith, judgement “On works in salvation”]

I certainly agree there are works “in” salvation, since Scripture reveals the true believer is “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10). Yet he is saved strictly BY GRACE through FAITH, it is a GIFT of God (not simply “offered,” but actually given to the true believer), and “not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9).

There is no contradiction inherent in: -works do not save us - nor do they “increase” our justification [solus Christus]. -not obeying Christ “works”] may forfeit the salvation offered

The inherent contradiction in your statement is blatant. If “no works” can save us, then “no works” cannot forfeit salvation that was based on “no works” in the first place. Salvation is a gift, bestowed on the one who believes in another Man’s work. That of course being Christ’s, His work on the cross on behalf of all men. Here’s the “faith formula” for salvation Christ Himself presents which is based on believing/accepting His “work” on the cross on behalf of all:

JO. 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must
the Son of Man be lifted up (this of course being in reference to the cross);

JO. 3:15 that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.

JO. 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

JO. 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but
that the world should be saved through Him.

JO. 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has
been judged already (i.e., remains in his unsaved state), because he has not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

-Christ will reward us, at the judgement, consonant with how
we lived out our faith **I agree that all true believers must stand before the judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), but not for the purpose of evaluating the quality of the believer’s salvation status, but the value of our works for which we were “created in Christ Jesus” to do. This evaluation is described in detail in 1 Cor. 3:10-15. Catholics erroneously apply these verses to “Purgatory” (an unbiblical doctrine) but there are no sins being “purged” here, but the “testing” (figuratively) by fire the value (quality) of a believer’s “labor” in this life. If proved to be “precious” a “reward” is due, if not it (the work) is burned up and nothing rewarded. Yet he himself is saved since salvation has nothing to do with his works (1 Cor. 3:15).

“I have run the race…”

This is in reference to Paul’s ministry, he didn’t run a race to “win” salvation. It means he finished the work he was commissioned to do by Christ, i.e., take the salvation message of the cross to the Gentiles.

“Work out your salvation in fear and trembling…”

Yes, work “out” your salvation with fear and trembling, not work “for” your salvation with fear and trembling. It could be translated, “work outward your salvation.”

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Milliardo:

First of all, do you even question what was written in the Bible itself? If you are, then you are in denial of what is plainly seen there. I think the question then should be addressed to you, since clearly you seem to reject the Last Judgment on Christ’s Second Coming.

Yours is an erroneous interpretation of Matt. 25:31ff. That is not a description of the “Last Judgment.” Matthew 25:31 is speaking of Christ coming to sit on His father David’s throne to rule over Israel and the Gentile nations during His Millennial rule on earth. The fulfillment of what Gabriel said to Mary at the Annunciation (see Lk. 1:32-33). The “Last Judgment” is the “White Throne Judgment” found in Rev. 20:11-15. There are no believers at that judgment. All are unbelievers!! For ALL who stand before that judgment seat are cast off into the “Lake of Fire,” called the “second death.”

All true believers are part of what is called “the first resurrection.” It is the resurrection unot LIFE. The “second death” has no power over them:

**REV 20:6 ** “Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Milliardo]

bene7:

Yours is an erroneous interpretation of Matt. 25:31ff. That is not a description of the “Last Judgment.” Matthew 25:31 is speaking of Christ coming to sit on His father David’s throne to rule over Israel and the Gentile nations during His Millennial rule on earth.

Nowhere is this implied. What is your basis for this?

The “Last Judgment” is the “White Throne Judgment” found in Rev. 20:11-15. There are no believers at that judgment. All are unbelievers!! For ALL who stand before that judgment seat are cast off into the “Lake of Fire,” called the “second death.”

verse 15 already would debunk this notion. Again, what’s your basis Matthew 25:31ff is different from Rev. 20:11-15?

 

[reen12]

quote: bene7

The inherent contradiction in your statement is blatant. If “no works” can save us, then “no works” cannot forfeit salvation that was based on “no works” in the first place. Salvation is a gift, bestowed on the one who believes in another Man’s work. That of course being Christ’s, His work on the cross on behalf of all men. Here’s the “faith formula” for salvation Christ Himself presents which is based on believing/accepting His “work” on the cross on behalf of all:

That’s very interesting, bene7.
If salvation is through faith, by grace…solus Christus…
then how do my “works” ‘save’ me? They don’t.
Yet, no works, no salvation.

[How do you view “obedience to Christ’s commands”?]

That obedience is “works”…these works do not
save me, but without this obedience, my declared
“faith” in Jesus will be held up to Paul’s
…let us not grow weary, in doing good… Gal. 6:7-9]

If one says:
Jesus saves! yet does not obey the Master,
“God will not be mocked.” [St. Paul]

quote: bene7

I agree that all true believers must stand before the judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), but not for the purpose of evaluating the quality of the believer’s salvation status, but the value of our works for which we were “created in Christ Jesus” to do

Please consider comparing what you wrote, quoted directly above,
with:
quote: reen12

-Christ will reward us, at the judgement, consonant with how we lived out our faith

Uh, bene7, are you assuming that I espouse the
doctrines of Catholic theology - with regard to “increasing” our
justification? or on purgatory? that we can “assist” in
our own salvation?

quote: bene7

Yes, work “out” your salvation with fear and trembling, not work “for” your salvation…

You do realize that I am agreeing with you, on this?

---

I quoted Paul:

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

You observed:
quote: bene7

This is in reference to Paul’s ministry, he didn’t run a race to “win” salvation.

I am not suggesting that he did!

But Paul realized that Jesus commanded us to
*do *various things, and if we do not do them,
how can we say that we ‘believe’ Him
for our salvation…if part of what we are to “believe” is
how serious He is, about obedience to His commands?

Paul is not the sole writer, in the New Testament.
Jesus Himself said:
Not everyone who says to Me: Lord, Lord…will enter
the Kingdom of heaven…but rather those who do the
will of My Father in heaven.
i.e., no “works” [obedience], salvation is forfeit.

It is this very issue that caused Luther to set aside the
letter of James. [James - “Faith, without works, is dead.”]

My problem is this:
I think the CC leans too heavily - on the synoptics and St. John
I think some Protestants lean too heavily -on St. Paul

As to:
quote: bene7

If “no works” can save us, then “no works” cannot forfeit salvation that was based on “no works” in the first place.

If works are defined as “obedience to Christ’s commands”,
then the blatancy- of my ‘contradiction’- may not be so
readily apparent.

[Do you disagree with this understanding of works?
In other words: what is the ‘purpose’ of obedience-
to Christ’s commands- in the life of a Christian?]
And, futher, what is the ‘effect’ on salvation, for one
who does not follow His commands?

In any case, thanks much for your observations. :tiphat:

Best,

reen12

 

[bene7]

Milliardo:

Nowhere is this implied. What is your basis for this?

If you read the Luke 1:32-33 passage I referenced you’d see that her Son was to inherit the throne of His father David. This was to fulfill the Covenant God made with David in 2 Sam. 7:12-16; that God would establish his kingdom forever, and one of his descendant would sit on his throne to rule. Gabriel told Mary that the child to which she would give birth is that promised descendant. And Jesus, during His earthly ministry preached to the nation of Israel that “the kingdom is at hand” (Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 17:7). But the nation rejected their King and Jesus told them that the kingdom will be taken away from them and given to a nation producing the fruit of it (Matt. 21:43). So rather than ascend the Davidic throne after His resurrection, He instead ascended into Heaven and now shares His heavenly Father’s throne. But Jesus does not consider His Father’s throne in heaven His throne, i.e., “the throne of His father David,” as was revealed to Mary. In Rev. 3:21 it is seen that He still anticipates the day when He will return to this earth to occupy it:

REV 3:21 “He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”

Matthew 25 is in the context of Christ’s physical return to this earth at the “end of the age” (Matt. 24:3, 29-31). And verse thirty-one is in conjunction with this return:

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, THEN He will sit on His glorious throne" (cf. Rev. 19:11-16).

In Matt. 25:32 it is the nations that are then gathered before Him and like a shepherd He separates the “sheep” from the “goats.” The sheep are all the believers on earth at that time, the goats are unbelievers (see Jn. 10:11, 14, 15, 27). There is nothing in the context that speaks about the “dead” coming before Him at this time, as described at the great White Throne judgment in Rev. 20. His “sheep” are ushered into the kingdom (vs. 34) and the “goats” to eternal punishment (vs. 46). As King He then rules over His earthly Kingdom for 1000 years from Jerusalem on His father David’s throne, just as it was told to Mary in Luke 1:32-33 (see Zech. 14).

The White Throne judgment, however, does not take place until AFTER that 1000 year reign of Christ has ended (see Rev. 20:4, 7, 11)

verse 15 already would debunk this notion.

Keep it in context, Milliardo. No true believer’s eternal estate is ever dependent on his “deeds,” but according to his faith in Christ. All those before the White Throne are judged “according to their deeds.” And it gives no indication that any of their names were found in the book.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Milliardo]

bene7:

If you read the Luke 1:32-33 passage I referenced you’d see that her Son was to inherit the throne of His father David.

That’s well and good, bene, but remember as well that Jesus isn’t just to be king of Israel per se; indeed, He is King of kings and Lord of lords.

But Jesus does not consider His Father’s throne in heaven His throne

I think you’re going back to a fundamental problem that you have, and that you’re trying to separate Jesus from God, or deny Jesus to be the Emmanuel. Am i correct in this assessment?

In Matt. 25:32 it is the nations that are then gathered before Him and like a shepherd He separates the “sheep” from the “goats.” The sheep are all the believers on earth at that time, the goats are unbelievers

Again, nowhere in the passage is this context given. Nor are the side references you made in John helping your cause out; Jesus is portrayed as the Shepherd, yes, but it is interesting to note in Matthew 25:31ff that He is also there as Judge.

There is nothing in the context that speaks about the “dead” coming before Him at this time

Sorry, the context in Matthew 25:31ff speaks otherwise; you will have to contend that on the Last Day Jesus will not judge the livng and the dead. This point of yours doesn’t make any sense in light of the passage.

The White Throne judgment, however, does not take place until AFTER that 1000 year reign of Christ has ended (see Rev. 20:4, 7, 11)Keep it in context, Milliardo. No true believer’s eternal estate is ever dependent on his “deeds,” but according to his faith in Christ.

Again, you are in great denial here. Please look at verse 15: anyone whose name was not written in the book of life was thrown into the fire. Now, what is the context of that verse? Judgment. What happened in verses 11-14? Judgment. So those whose deeds did not substantiate their faith, who were not in the book of life, were thrown into the fire. Pretty clear. Sadly, though, your extreme denial in seeing that our deeds will be the basis for God’s judgment has made you go into a loop here.

 

[bene7]

reen12:

quote: bene7

That’s very interesting, bene7.
If salvation is through faith, by grace…solus Christus…
then how do my “works” ‘save’ me? They don’t.
Yet, no works, no salvation.

But still, the GIFT of salvation is never based on my own works. “For BY GRACE you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it (salvation) is a GIFT of God…”

Before any works are accomplished (can be performed) a man is first saved by God’s grace (unrecompensed favor, stemming from Christ’s work on the cross, for him) through faith. Being saved gift-wise. “Good works” FOR which he is “created in Christ Jesus” (i…e, born again) cannot occur until AFTER he is first given,* freely*, salvation. Read again Eph. 2:8-10.

[How do you view “obedience to Christ’s commands”?]

What do you consider to be “Christ’s commandments?” Can you list them for me? Still, one is never saved by obeying commandments - that’s law. The true believer is not “under law” but “under grace” (Rom. 6:14).

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Milliardo:

That’s well and good, bene, but remember as well that Jesus isn’t just to be king of Israel per se; indeed, He is King of kings and Lord of lords.

And that’s exactly how He returns, bodily, to reign over His Meillennial Kingdom on His father David’s throne.

*You know you’re not. Because I have never stated such a thing. That’s how you interpret my words (for your own reasons).

Blessings,
Bene*

 

[Church_Militant]

bene7:

Yours is an erroneous interpretation of Matt. 25:31ff. That is not a description of the “Last Judgment.” Matthew 25:31 is speaking of Christ coming to sit on His father David’s throne to rule over Israel and the Gentile nations during His Millennial rule on earth. The fulfillment of what Gabriel said to Mary at the Annunciation (see Lk. 1:32-33). The "Last

Judgment" is the “White Throne Judgment” found in Rev. 20:11-15. There are no believers at that judgment. All are unbelievers!! For ALL who stand before that judgment seat are cast off into the “Lake of Fire,” called the “second death.”

All true believers are part of what is called “the first resurrection.” It is the resurrection unot LIFE. The “second death” has no power over them:

REV 20:6 But isn’t this based on the Rapture/Pre-trib/Millenial belief system? If so, it fails heavily on the fact that the Rapture is a twisted interp that only came into existence less than 200 years ago.

The idea that Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about some Per-millenial judgement is based on a loosely strung together group of proof texts that make less and less sense the closer one looks at them.

John 6 casts very strong doubt on this whole concept in the following verses:

John 6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

This ties directly in with St. Paul’s discussion of the last day and the events thereof in 1st Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed.

When you look into the New Tesament objectively, you have to honestly say that it just doesn’t add up right.

Works do indeed play a part in our judgement before Christ, and in looking at the entire passage of Matthew 25:31-46 brings that out all the more.

"31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting. "

The idea that there are no believers at the judgement in the above passage is ludicrous since the passage plainly says that there are.There is no possible question that the judgement described above is based on works & the idea that it occurs at some other judgement is not supported by the plain sense of the Word of God but just by the twisted interpretations of non-Catholic theologians.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[reen12]

quote: bene7

What do you consider to be “Christ’s commandments?” Can you list them for me?

These are found throughout the synoptic gospels:

-if a man wishes you to give him your coat,
give him your cloak, as well
-turn the other cheek
-the “great commandment”…love God and your neighbor as yourself
-the “new” commandment…love others, as I have loved you
[or, is this in the gospel of John ]
-forgive 70 times 7
-"…but I say to you: forgive your enemies…"
-leave your gift at the altar, and go and be reconciled
-parable of the Good Samaritan

to name but a few.

My original question was:
quote: reen12
If works are defined as “obedience to Christ’s commands”…

[Do you disagree with this understanding of works?
In other words: what is the ‘purpose’ of obedience-
to Christ’s commands- in the life of a Christian?]
And, futher, what is the ‘effect’ on salvation, for one
who does not follow His commands?

For, if faith were all -and does not *include *the aspect of
obedience to His commands - why did Jesus spend 3 years
teaching His commands?

And, why would Luther remove the letter of St. James,
which states: "Faith, without works, is dead.?

[BTW, I think the *apparent contradiction was addressed
by refering to a “lively faith” -which indicates obedience to
Christ’s commands, as an aspect of faith.]

I guess I’m just trying to understand how you view “works.”
In other words, what is your thought on Gal. 6:7-9 ?

usccb.org/nab/bible/galatians/galatians6.htm

You have quoted St. Paul as saying:

The true believer is not “under law” but “under grace” (Rom. 6:14).

Still, it was also St. Paul who wrote:
God will not be mocked…do not grow weary of doing good.

Best wishes,

reen12 :tiphat: