Once a Catholic, Always a Catholic?

[Koko81]

NOTE the following friend,

No neither I nor God nor any informed, Practicing Catholic is happy about what you freely decided; freelly chose! Please don’t blame God for your VERY OWN decissions.

I’m leaving in environment. My decision is NEVER my own. I was educated by people, parents, priest, bishops, etc. etc. I’m only accumulation of all of this what I learned from them.

I didn’t choose to be born in particular country, time etc. I didn’t choose to have particular medical conditions, sickness etc.

You tell me it’s my own decision? What is my own decision?

TWO THINGS you NEED TO KNOW:

1. Mark.3: 29 " but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" – THIS IS THE ONLY UNFOGIVABLE SIN
   therefore where YOU CHOOSE to spend Eternity remains in your control

1. ** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ** There is sin which is mortal**; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. ** Jesus said to them ** again, “Peace be with you. ** As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

My friend in Christ you would be much beter of seng fogiveness rather than pity.

May God bless you, and grant you Mercy and Understanding.

Pat

You know, I don’t know what is a sin any more. I don’t have any desire (never had in my whole life) to object God (hard to object someone who never say “Hi” and hiding all the time). I never sinned with full consent, knowledge etc. to do it “against” God (How I can sin against someone without knowing Him?).

Tell me do you know God? Did He speak to you? I was thinking that only Jesus KNOWS God…

Let’s read:

1. Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
2. It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context).
3. It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

Especially number 3 (but 2 is interesting to… FULL knowledge part, do I posses FULL KNOWLEDGE), I’ve never made a personal decision to go against God any of commandments. I DON’T want to sin, and everything what can happen is just a weakens, lack of knowledge about particular problems etc. etc.

It’s like blaming a child to brake a 345 years old painting in museum. If we had FULL knowledge about value of this painting nobody would destroy it. NOBODY, since we ALL would value this painting.

So, who commits mortal sin?

 

[davidv]

I’m leaving in environment. My decision is NEVER my own. I was educated by people, parents, priest, bishops, etc. etc. I’m only accumulation of all of this what I learned from them.

You can say this and even believe it, but you are still wrong.

I didn’t choose to be born in particular country, time etc. I didn’t choose to have particular medical conditions, sickness etc.

You tell me it’s my own decision? What is my own decision?

You always can choose whether to love God and neighbor, or not. It matters not in what country, or century or condition, God is present and so are neighbors.

You know, I don’t know what is a sin any more.

Sin is a failure to love.

I don’t have any desire (never had in my whole life) to object God (hard to object someone who never say “Hi” and hiding all the time). I never sinned with full consent, knowledge etc. to do it “against” God (How I can sin against someone without knowing Him?).

How do you know this? It sounds like you are making excuses for not repenting.

Tell me do you know God? Did He speak to you?

Yes and yes, through His Church.

Let’s read:

1. Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
2. It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context).
3. It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

Especially number 3 (but 2 is interesting to… FULL knowledge part, do I posses FULL KNOWLEDGE), I never made a person decision to God against any of commandment. I DON’T want to sin, and everything what can happen is just a weakens, lack of knowledge about particular problems etc. etc.

Except when you choose to do them anyway, you commit a sin.

It’s like blaming a child to brake a 345 years old painting in museum. If we had FULL knowledge about value of this painting nobody would destroy it. NOBODY, since we ALL would value this painting.

So, who commits mortal sin?

Anyone one commits a grave sin without being forced to do so. Temptation do not force you to do anything.

 

[Koko81]

You can say this and even believe it, but you are still wrong.

If 2+2 not equal 5, you can explain on example that 2+2=4.

You always can choose whether to love God and neighbor, or not. It matters not in what country, or century or condition, God is present and so are neighbors.

But condition create who we are. Why some people on this world attach dynamite to their vest? They KNOW (were educated…so called brain washing) that is GOOD.

Sin is a failure to love.

If someone will not teach how to love you don’t know how to love. What is Jesus teaching… love.

How do you know this? It sounds like you are making excuses for not repenting.

From what?

Yes and yes, through His Church.

But in person, you never meet God . Yesterday my friend told me that she heard voice from God. I was thinking that I heard that to… it was “just my head” creating some random sounds. When I finally get rid of this “sounds”… and found a PEACE (btw. spiritual director show me the way…).

Except when you choose to do them anyway, you commit a sin.

Why someone would choose to murder someone?

Anyone one commits a grave sin without being forced to do so. Temptation do not force you to do anything.

You never was tempted than. As a humans we are not able to stop eating, as a humans are actions are predetermined by this what we learned about life from others.

Take a family of Martins (Louis Martin and st. Terese). Perfect family, perfect daughters. In simplest words.

Tell some person that God is loving Father when someone had sick father, drunk father, abusing father, etc. etc. etc. you got SICK impression about God. So, is God someone at the end who you imagine “as loving Father” or is he real and same for all.

Or is he real because we all want nice and loving father so we created God based on our own desires (which are common for all of us… like a drinking a clean water… who like dirty water?)?

 

[ORD_NASILA]

This is how I’ve always understood it. I’m particularly interested in this as it applies to converts, though it may apply somehow to cradle Catholics as well. I mean, when they are received into the Catholic Church, they receive the sacraments – possibly Baptism, certainly Confirmation and Eucharist. The Sacraments leave “indelible marks,” or so I was taught.

What I’m asking – provide references if you know of any, that’d be great – is, there’s no equivalent to an annulment for conversion and joining the Church, is there? I could think of only one possible scenarios, and again, these are my musings so don’t take them as anything authoritative.

One possibility - say the person was insane or under the influence (although it would be hard to think how they could get through an entire RCIA program without that being detected). Would their conversion be valid when they sobered up or got mental health treatment?

But say the person had an illness, and on his/her supposed deathbed he/she converted, then somehow recovered, and later didn’t even remember it and didn’t want to be Catholic.

I present these extreme scenarios in an attempt to figure out what to do, how to help, people who apparently converted for emotional reasons, or to please someone else, and then changed their mind – but who at the time thought it was what they wanted also. They couldn’t become “un-Catholic” then, the most they could do would be to be a non-practicing Catholic.

In evangelizing a person in that situation, we would want to try to get the person to see the decision as irreversible, and encourage them to re-commit to it, right? With love, of course.

Hello 3Doctors, on the face of it, the idea in regard to cradle Catholics, and “once a Catholic, always a Catholic” would seem to go against the God-given right of free-will. To look upon it in another way, the Mark of the Beast cannot be irreversible until the moment of death, ie ‘while there’s life, there’s hope’. Furthermore, cradle Catholics obviously are not subjected to the RCIA program unless one were to propose the idea that in some way its’ precepts were somehow transfered at birth, rather similar to the dogma of “original sin”, I haste to point out here that I am not comparing Catholicism with either “the Mark of the Beast”, or “original sin” quite to the contrary, for it is my belief that the Catholic Church offers the most organised remedy for both the infamous “mark”, and that inherited disease, “original sin”.

God Bless you! Regards, ORD.
*"Fear not therefore, because ye are of more value than many sparrows"*

 

[3DOCTORS]

Hi 3DOCTORS,

As far as the law of the Church is concerned, a person could pursue such a question by using the judicial procedures as they are given in the Code of Canon Law. Yes, these procedures would be the same as those used for so-called “annulments.”

The fundamental basis for a person to even introduce such a claim is cc. 124-126. vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PE.HTM If, then, a person is truly insane or acts out of force or fear or ignorance or error, he might be able to claim that his baptism or profession of faith was not valid and therefore his reception into the Church was also not valid.

For someone who has gotten to the point of not caring what the Church says, such a process would never be initiated. I have never heard of it actually being done, frankly. But, it’s there and could be used.

Dan

Thanks Dan, this answers my question rather well. I hope this thread can return to its original purpose which was to answer this question of Church teaching, for purposes of evangelization.

Not to squash discussion, but I wish that if folks are wanting to argue about and/or vent anger against the Church or its members, regarding specific matters that have touched their lives, and that they feel passionately about but that aren’t really central to this thread, that they at least consider the idea of starting separate threads to address those? :twocents:

 

[PJM]

=Koko81;7276524]I’m leaving in environment. My decision is NEVER my own. I was educated by people, parents, priest, bishops, etc. etc. I’m only accumulation of all of this what I learned from them.

***That dear friend may be YOUR understanding, but it lacks a proper foundation in both logic and truth. It could be sen as a excuse to not be acountable for ones actions; which whie posible ihigly unusual an imporbable. ***

I didn’t choose to be born in particular country, time etc. I didn’t choose to have particular medical conditions, sickness etc.

You tell me it’s my own decision? What is my own decision?

Did you get up this morning? Did you dress? Did you eat’? Did you go anywhere" Did you do aything? Watch TV? Did you acknowledg God ar but a few xamples of frewill choices.

I don’t know what is a sin any more. …(How I can sin against someone without knowing Him?).

Sin is saying " NO" to God. BASIC Morality is KNOWN by all. Murder is a sin, stealing is a sin, Adultry is a sin. These wrongs are known as WRONG by everyone; even if fooling themselves they deny such.[This is just the short list].

Tell me do you know God? Did He speak to you? I was thinking that only Jesus KNOWS God…

***YES, actually I do God is a TRINITY of three Persons with ONE Common Nature. Father, Son, [JESUS] and Holy Spirit.we can know God through CREATION, Through His Sacraments and Through His Church. AND yes He speaks to my heart and my MIND [God is Spirit and so is our MINDS].

TRUTH can be denied, altered, ignored, BUT it can NEVER be changed.***

Let’s read:

1. Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.

***So friend are you taking the position that Murder, Rape, stealing, Adulty as well as othr things ar "not serious matter, or do yu get to decide for yourself. It’s been that only a fool has himself fo a teacher ***

1. It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context).

Pretending NOT to know is not going to save you. GOD IS AND MUST B A JUST JUDGE AND WLL FACTOR IN WHAT GOD PERMITS US TO KNOW [SHOULD KNOW] AS WELL AS WHAT WE FREELY ACCEPT AS OUR PERSONAL TRUTHS.

1. It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

***Should KNOW,is as good as actually knowng. Awillingness to participate in evil acts fulfills the conditin of self-imposed guilt.

One can fool themselves, me, and others, BUT NEVERGOD!***

Especially number 3 (but 2 is interesting to… FULL knowledge part, do I posses FULL KNOWLEDGE), I’ve never made a personal decision to go against God any of commandments. I DON’T want to sin, and everything what can happen is just a weakens, lack of knowledge about particular problems etc. etc.

***Actually you may have:shrug: Denying God by choice, which is what you seem to have be doing, is ONLY kiddng yourself; not God.?

You “don’t want to sin” BUT you freely choose to deny God, and God’s rights as your CREATOR over you and all of us. How is that going to “play” in the court of Divine Justice?***

So, who commits mortal sin?

Every human person who unprevoked commits murder, has or supports Abotion, commits Adultry, willfully ruins anothers good-name, Ect, Ect… will be found guilty by God dispite claims of “not knowing,” because everyone OUGHT to KNOW these truths And that will be sufficient to b found GUILTY in God’ Just Court

Some acts ar ALWAYS and VERY TIME GREVIOUS SINS! Sme exmples further examples:

2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:

God bless you,
Pat

 

[Vince1022]

For instant, back when the Catholic Church had a greater role in secular functions, remaining Catholic “on paper” could prevent you from marrying at all. When you formally renounced the faith, the Church would unbind you from the marriage laws so that you could marry validly outside the Church, even though your soul would be in grave danger.

Today, one could pursue “secular” marriage, although without the proper dispensation, it would not be truly valid. Although, without faith that the Church is true, indeed why would the renounced/lapsed Catholic care?

Marrying outside the Church is a far cry from formally leaving the Church. As Canon Law indicates.

 

[Vince1022]

But so what? From the perspective of the person leaving, there is no difference. If the Church is false, leaving is no different from quitting a club. To the person leaving, there is no canon.

Formally leaving, i.e., telling the Church, “I quit,” acknowledges the authority of the Church. But if someone is leaving, doesn’t he reject the same authority? Thus, formally leaving is contradictory.

Formally leaving may be no different to the person, but it is different to the Church. Thankfully.

 

[Vince1022]

I’m leaving in environment.

I don’t know what that means. Can you clarify? Thanks.

 

[Vince1022]

You tell me it’s my own decision? What is my own decision?

Responding to the call of faith is your own decision.

 

[runningdude]

Marrying outside the Church is a far cry from formally leaving the Church. As Canon Law indicates.

True, but in the past, being excused from Church marriage law was one of the reasons a lapsed Catholic would formally renounce the faith.

 

[Vince1022]

True, but in the past, being excused from Church marriage law was one of the reasons a lapsed Catholic would formally renounce the faith.

Maybe, though I’ve never heard of such. So you don’t disagree with my point?