Once in Hell...

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isn’t this just a way of avoiding that hell is a punishment. God has punished them for not loving him, by creating hell as the only alternative. Would they want to be free of eternal pain? uh-ha I think so.
It really doesn’t matter whether you call it a punishment, although to my mind “consequence” is more apt. It is not as if God could say, “Hey, go be happy without me, no skin off my back.” We were made to love God and we need God…and it would not have been a mercy to have made us otherwise. It is no problem to be nothing without God if you ever realize that you never have to be without God in the first place. Being nothing without God and choosing to be without God, though…that is another story.

My point is that a life without God is painful, and painful in every way in which we have existence. You cannot hold your breath and yet breathe, and not breathing is painful and deadly to a creature that lives on air. There is no way around it.

Hell is not an arbitrary choice God created to pay us out for offending Him by having the audacity to stand on our own two feet. It is the inevitable result of our stubborn choice to refuse to admit that God alone is the source of all Life, all Peace, all Love, and all Joy, and that we can supply none of that for ourselves. God is what God is: “I Am Who Am.” Nothing can change that.
 
Nevertheless people apparently go to hell simply because they are weak ( are too weak to avoid sin) or they genuinely believe that there is no God (or is no Christian God), which raises the question of how just hell is. The “they hate God” answer neatly avoids this. What about people who lived without ever hearing of Christianity? How are they judged if a conciouse decision to reject or accept God is necessary to determine ones fate?
 
Nevertheless people apparently go to hell simply because they are weak ( are too weak to avoid sin) or they genuinely believe that there is no God (or is no Christian God), which raises the question of how just hell is. The “they hate God” answer neatly avoids this. What about people who lived without ever hearing of Christianity? How are they judged if a conciouse decision to reject or accept God is necessary to determine ones fate?
I think the “ignorance” assertion here is based on a false premise, at least according to church teaching. The church is plainly clear that those who through no fault of their own don’t know the full truth of Christ will not be held accountable. All humans are wired for God, whether they know the specifics or not, so their good-faith pursuit of towards that is acceptable to God. If such folks fully were presented the truth of Christ and the church, they would accept that as well, because that is the summit of what they are wired for.

The difficult part is the question on what consitutes a true rejection of God, which only He knows. We have objective norms of right and wrong, but personal accountability to them is always subject to our human limitations. By the definition of mortal sin, we have to engage in it freely and knowingly. Our human weaknesses mean we are usually not *completely *free and knowledgeable in our actions (only the angels are), so the $64,000 question concerns when is a person gravely sinful and when is his weakness or ignorance means he was not really freely consenting and thus not gravely sinning. I honestly have no idea. Perhaps weakness bar is set really high and only a a few get to heaven. Perhaps it is the other way around and nearly all will get there. I just don’t know.

LT
 
I think the “ignorance” assertion here is based on a false premise, at least according to church teaching. The church is plainly clear that those who through no fault of their own don’t know the full truth of Christ will not be held accountable. All humans are wired for God, whether they know the specifics or not, so their good-faith pursuit of towards that is acceptable to God. If such folks fully were presented the truth of Christ and the church, they would accept that as well, because that is the summit of what they are wired for.

The difficult part is the question on what consitutes a true rejection of God, which only He knows. We have objective norms of right and wrong, but personal accountability to them is always subject to our human limitations. By the definition of mortal sin, we have to engage in it freely and knowingly. Our human weaknesses mean we are usually not *completely *free and knowledgeable in our actions (only the angels are), so the $64,000 question concerns when is a person gravely sinful and when is his weakness or ignorance means he was not really freely consenting and thus not gravely sinning. I honestly have no idea. Perhaps weakness bar is set really high and only a a few get to heaven. Perhaps it is the other way around and nearly all will get there. I just don’t know.

LT
The church does not say that unbelievers will not be held accountable----it says they ***may *** be saved—not that they definitely will. They must strive to do do the will of God as they know it.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, ***try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience ***- those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]

(Emphasis my own.)

The rest of what you said is correct—we must deliberately aim to be grave sinners, and we must know that what we are doing are grave sins. These are the criteria: 1) Full consent and 2) Grave matter
 
Simple question: If someone is in hell, would they want out if they were offered a ticket out and back to God? I know there are no tickets out of hell, but once they get there, do the damned actually prefer it to heaven and God?

LT
I read once that they have no desire to leave, why ? well because all grace has been removed and would never contemplate leaving that place, I hope I never find out.

This letter has received an imprimatur, pretty horrible really, it don’t seem she did a lot to get there, probably lukewarmness, and Jesus warns about that to Saint Faustina. Cry of a lost soul
 
The church does not say that unbelievers will not be held accountable----it says they ***may *** be saved—not that they definitely will. They must strive to do do the will of God as they know it.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, ***try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience ***- those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]

(Emphasis my own.)

The rest of what you said is correct—we must deliberately aim to be grave sinners, and we must know that what we are doing are grave sins. These are the criteria: 1) Full consent and 2) Grave matter
Thanks for the clarification, prv. What you state is my understanding, but my quick explanation could have been a little misleading on that regard. By accountable, I meant for not accepting the church explicitly, not that they wouldn’t be held accountable in any more general sense. So yeah, they like us *may *be saved. It is just a bit harder without the graces offered through Christ’s church - and therein lies our solemn responsiblity to guide them towards that source of grace.

LT
 
I would say they know of heaven and want out of hell because:

The Parable of
The Rich Man & Lazarus
Luke 16:19-31 "Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.
He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’

"But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’

"But Abraham said to him,
‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’

"He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’”
With all due respect, the Rich Man was NOT in hell. He was in purgatory. In the passage that you just quoted, it can be clearly seen that he expressed concerned for his brothers. Compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from His graces. Therefore, he could not have been in hell. He was in purgatory.
 
Angels, we understand, are beings of pure intellect and will. They are not subject to confusion. They never “change their minds”. The evil spirits, then, incomprehensively more intelligent than we are, not subject to any kind of confusion or misjudgment, made a clear choice. The nature of angels is such that their decisions are forever because their wills are united with their being in such a way that they “make themselves” what they are by their decisions. So, in making their decision against God, the evil spirits had a totally clear idea what they were doing. So why, then, did they do it? One explanation is pride. Not pride in the sense we understand it exactly, but a pride that is a rejection of the governance of Divine Providence. In other words, they did not want to be ruled; did not want to make a self-declaring act of the will united with the will of God, and gave up the Beatific Vision in order to govern themselves, within their power, totally.

St. Therese of Lisieux said everyone in hell is a volunteer. She described the Particular Judgment, in which we see, in total detail, in its full evilness, every single sin we ever committed. At that time, our minds are totally clear; clear in a way they never are in life. It is a terrible experience, she said. Then, we are required to do two things. First, we must admit the truth of what was made manifest. Then, Jesus offers us forgiveness, but we must accept it in that way-totally as forgiveness. There is no rationalization possible. There is no self-deception possible. There is no excuse possible. We simply accept forgiveness or we don’t.

Then, she said, with a total clarity, we choose. Some choose God because the soul loves God enough to accept himself as God accepts him, and to accept the purest form of forgiveness that can possibly be. But acceptance is on His terms, not ours.

Some say “no” and deny that the truth, which is as clear as clear can be, is the truth and, in so doing, deliberately affirm a lie known to be a lie; that our existence can be fulfilled without God. We refuse forgiveness, declaring, in effect, that we are not unjust; it is God who is unjust to require this of us. We then choose an eternity in contemplating our own being instead of that of God, because we do not choose to love Him. It is an irrevocable choice because we “make ourselves what we are” in so doing, something like the angels did. Because of the clarity of the thought, we never change our minds. We “hate” God because it is the only alternative to love; there being no “gray areas” in the clarity of the light of God…

St. Therese’s declaration is not necessarily the way things are. She was a living human when she said that. But she is a Doctor of the Church and, as such, strongly deserves consideration.

It’s hard to picture a person choosing hell, but if you think about it long enough, you can kind of picture it. If a person has “trained himself” to “choose himself” and “worship himself” enough in life, it is imaginable. We all do it every day. Jesus Himself said “even the just man falls seven times a day.” We train both ways at best.

She also said all souls in Purgatory are volunteers. They do not “choose themselves”, but know with total clarity that they are not fit to be in the presence of God and are unable to love God as God wishes to be loved, but we do not reject Him, and volunteer for (we do not know exactly what, but it is not a picnic) to cleanse ourselves and prepare ourselves, and change ourselves, and when we do, we know exactly what is needed to do so. Theoretically, they could avoid Purgatory, but do not, of their own free wills. It is our alternative to hell.

A fascinating picture. Scary too. What is it to “love God as God wishes to be loved” exactly? It’s right there in the Bible. But how, exactly; as a practical matter, right now? That is precisely why St. Therese’s “Little Way” has proved such a boon for so many.
 
With all due respect, the Rich Man was NOT in hell. He was in purgatory. In the passage that you just quoted, it can be clearly seen that he expressed concerned for his brothers. Compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from His graces. Therefore, he could not have been in hell. He was in purgatory.
Well, he doesn’t have to be in purgatory. He could have been feigning concern for his brothers as a bid to get out of the fires.
 
This thread reminds me of a common expression:

I’ll be damned if I ever _____________. Maybe this phrase captures a reality about men and their willingness to choose.
 
Angels, we understand, are beings of pure intellect and will. They are not subject to confusion. They never “change their minds”. The evil spirits, then, incomprehensively more intelligent than we are, not subject to any kind of confusion or misjudgment, made a clear choice. The nature of angels is such that their decisions are forever because their wills are united with their being in such a way that they “make themselves” what they are by their decisions. So, in making their decision against God, the evil spirits had a totally clear idea what they were doing. So why, then, did they do it? One explanation is pride. Not pride in the sense we understand it exactly, but a pride that is a rejection of the governance of Divine Providence. In other words, they did not want to be ruled; did not want to make a self-declaring act of the will united with the will of God, and gave up the Beatific Vision in order to govern themselves, within their power, totally.

St. Therese of Lisieux said everyone in hell is a volunteer. She described the Particular Judgment, in which we see, in total detail, in its full evilness, every single sin we ever committed. At that time, our minds are totally clear; clear in a way they never are in life. It is a terrible experience, she said. Then, we are required to do two things. First, we must admit the truth of what was made manifest. Then, Jesus offers us forgiveness, but we must accept it in that way-totally as forgiveness. There is no rationalization possible. There is no self-deception possible. There is no excuse possible. We simply accept forgiveness or we don’t.

Then, she said, with a total clarity, we choose. Some choose God because the soul loves God enough to accept himself as God accepts him, and to accept the purest form of forgiveness that can possibly be. But acceptance is on His terms, not ours.

Some say “no” and deny that the truth, which is as clear as clear can be, is the truth and, in so doing, deliberately affirm a lie known to be a lie; that our existence can be fulfilled without God. We refuse forgiveness, declaring, in effect, that we are not unjust; it is God who is unjust to require this of us. We then choose an eternity in contemplating our own being instead of that of God, because we do not choose to love Him. It is an irrevocable choice because we “make ourselves what we are” in so doing, something like the angels did. Because of the clarity of the thought, we never change our minds. We “hate” God because it is the only alternative to love; there being no “gray areas” in the clarity of the light of God…

St. Therese’s declaration is not necessarily the way things are. She was a living human when she said that. But she is a Doctor of the Church and, as such, strongly deserves consideration.

It’s hard to picture a person choosing hell, but if you think about it long enough, you can kind of picture it. If a person has “trained himself” to “choose himself” and “worship himself” enough in life, it is imaginable. We all do it every day. Jesus Himself said “even the just man falls seven times a day.” We train both ways at best.

She also said all souls in Purgatory are volunteers. They do not “choose themselves”, but know with total clarity that they are not fit to be in the presence of God and are unable to love God as God wishes to be loved, but we do not reject Him, and volunteer for (we do not know exactly what, but it is not a picnic) to cleanse ourselves and prepare ourselves, and change ourselves, and when we do, we know exactly what is needed to do so. Theoretically, they could avoid Purgatory, but do not, of their own free wills. It is our alternative to hell.

A fascinating picture. Scary too. What is it to “love God as God wishes to be loved” exactly? It’s right there in the Bible. But how, exactly; as a practical matter, right now? That is precisely why St. Therese’s “Little Way” has proved such a boon for so many.
Wow, facinating. Thanks, Ridgerunner. So according to St. Therese, we are offered forgiveness even at our judgement? Does that “jive” with church dogma? If so, it sure helps address what I call the “concupiscence/free will paradox” in our accountability. Regardless, I definitely have to read up on St. Therese.

LT
 
It’s hard to picture a person choosing hell, but if you think about it long enough, you can kind of picture it. If a person has “trained himself” to “choose himself” and “worship himself” enough in life, it is imaginable. We all do it every day. Jesus Himself said “even the just man falls seven times a day.” We train both ways at best.
That’s why we have to frequent the Sacraments and never stop praying for the grace of final perseverence.
 
No, they would not want out because they become part of hell. In one of the apparitions (don’t recall if it was of the Blessed Virgin Mary or maybe Jesus to St. Faustina) but it was reveiled that if the gates of hell were opned, not a single soul would leave.
St. Birgitta of Sweden, Life and Selected Revelations, The Fifth Book of Revelations, concerning her eight interrogation, Question four, page 112 and 114: “Since the pains of hell are incomparably horrible, why do you not cause them to be seen by humans in this life so that they may be fled?” Christ response: “As to why the pains of hell are not seen, I answer: If hell’s pains were visibly seen as they are now exist, man would be totally frozen with fear and seek heavenly joy out fear and not of love….But when the soul has been separated from the body, then they will feel and experience what they were unwilling to probe with their understanding when it was still possible.”

I have also read that the souls in hell deepen their hatred for God and curse him for his justice. The souls realize that God’s justice is pure and with the demons pronounce eternal damnation of God.
 
Simple question: If someone is in hell, would they want out if they were offered a ticket out and back to God? I know there are no tickets out of hell, but once they get there, do the damned actually prefer it to heaven and God?

LT
Actually heaven to the person condemned to Hell would be a million times more painful than Hell itself.

Ken
 
So according to St. Therese, we are offered forgiveness even at our judgement? Does that “jive” with church dogma? If so, it sure helps address what I call the “concupiscence/free will paradox” in our accountability. Regardless, I definitely have to read up on St. Therese.

LT
I am not a theologian ltravis, so I can’t say whether it “jives” with Church dogma or not. However, she is a Doctor of the Church. I don’t think it’s inconsistent to also say that we might make an irrevocable commitment on this earth. You should read St. Therese, because she says some even more amazing things than what I said in my post. She also said, for instance, that even if she had committed every sin there was, she would not be afraid of hell, because she loved God fully and completely. This might be a way of saying it is possible to commit fully, either way, on this earth, so that you cannot truly make the opposite commitment. But better that you read her yourself. It is unfortunate that nowadays there is not much commitment in Catholic circles to studying St. Therese. It truly did sweep the Catholic (and to some degree even the non-Catholic) world at one time.
 
I am not a theologian ltravis, so I can’t say whether it “jives” with Church dogma or not. However, she is a Doctor of the Church. I don’t think it’s inconsistent to also say that we might make an irrevocable commitment on this earth. You should read St. Therese, because she says some even more amazing things than what I said in my post. She also said, for instance, that even if she had committed every sin there was, she would not be afraid of hell, because she loved God fully and completely. This might be a way of saying it is possible to commit fully, either way, on this earth, so that you cannot truly make the opposite commitment. But better that you read her yourself. It is unfortunate that nowadays there is not much commitment in Catholic circles to studying St. Therese. It truly did sweep the Catholic (and to some degree even the non-Catholic) world at one time.
Thanks RR. You can rest assured I will be reading up on St. Therese now! You have done a marvelous service to me with your insightful replies and I am sure you will have an idea what’s in store for me as I read from the Little Flower.

LT
 
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