Once saved always saved - Adam & Eve

[danto]

Does the fall of Adam & Eve disprove OSAS?

Certainly they were in a state of grace when God created them, yet they turned their back on God and fell. It seems they were initially “saved” yet fell away.

 

[Victorious]

Yes, they certainly leaped out of the palm of God’s hand, of their own accord, and cast themselves out of Eden. And here’s something else that refutes OSAS: 2 Peter 2:20-22:

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

 

[danto]

Thanks very much Victorious.

I wonder what the argument would be on the other side that Adam & Eve do not refute OSAS:

a) They were never saved, the fall proves it
b) They were always saved, the fall didn’t cause them to lose their salvation
c) OSAS applies during the period of the new covenant only
d) Other…?

 

[tester]

Thanks very much Victorious.

I wonder what the argument would be on the other side that Adam & Eve do not refute OSAS:

a) They were never saved, the fall proves it
b) They were always saved, the fall didn’t cause them to lose their salvation
c) OSAS applies during the period of the new covenant only
d) Other…?

b) They were always saved, the fall didn’t cause them to lose their salvation.

that does mean there are no consequences to sin.

The Bible does not specifically tell us whether Adam and Eve were saved. Adam and Eve were the only two human beings who knew about God before they became tainted with sin. As a result, they likely still knew God better after their fall than any of us do today. Adam and Eve most definitely believed in and depended on God. God continued to talk with Adam and Eve and provide for them after the fall. Adam and Eve knew of God’s promise that He would provide a Savior (Genesis 3:15). God made garments of skin for Adam and Eve after the fall (Genesis 3:21). Many scholars understand this as the first animal sacrifice, foreshadowing the eventual death of Christ on the cross for the sins of the world.

In other words; Man sinned and an animal was sacrificed as a covering.

The Bible does not tell us exactly when the sacrifice system was strated but it must have been early.

Hebrew 9:22…and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Cain and Abel, the sons of Adam and Eve, “in the course of time” brought offerings to the Lord (Genesis 4:3). Without doubt, they were doing this because God had revealed it to them.
Some question, “How were Cain and Abel supposed to know what to sacrifice?”
The answer is that God (either directly or indirectly through Adam), must have instructed them.

It is clear that the offering was to be a substitutionary atonement, because we read in Hebrews 11:4, “By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did.” When Abel came for worship, it was by faith that he brought his offering, the “fat portions from some of the first-born of his flock” (Genesis 4:4). The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, and it was accepted.

Putting these facts together, it would seem that Adam and Eve were saved and did indeed go to heaven / paradise when they died.

 

[SunshineRose1]

I definitely see your position, and I think it makes a lot of sense:thumbsup:

Of course, I do admit that I am not a supporter of the “once saved, always saved” philosophy, since I am convinced that it isn’t enough to just acknowledge Jesus as your Lord and Savior and that He died so you could be forgiven for your sins. I think that God expects people to act on that knowledge, and if the people don’t act upon that knowledge, then they cannot truly claim to understand that knowledge. In my opinion, a genuine acknowledgment of the magnitude of God’s love and mercy cannot help but change one’s conduct. Also, I firmly believe that a Christian’s duty and joy lies in engaging in a relationship with God, and that of necessity requires more than a one time acknowledgment of Jesus as your Lord and Savior. A relationship will have rocky spots, but if both parties are committed (and I know that God is) the final destination for the person whose faith is more than just a one time acknowledgment of God will be heaven, at least as far as I am concerned.

Of course, I imagine that the other side will argue either that Adam and Eve weren’t saved, or that they were still saved despite their sin…

 

[Victorious]

I definitely see your position, and I think it makes a lot of sense:thumbsup:

Yep, errors are always plausible. Otherwise, nobody would believe them.

 

[danto]

tester,

Excellent - Good assessment! I agree with you it does look like Adam & Eve reconciled based on those facts. Even though they sinned grievously they reconciled and were ultimately saved. (Actually this is a very comforting thought that even Adam & Eve were given the grace to come back to God!)

Following the biblical text - can we say if they were still in the saved state immediately after eating of the tree?

Genesis 3
***8: When they heard the sound of the LORD God moving about in the garden at the breezy time of the day, the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9: The LORD God then called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?” ***

Reading into these passages it stikes me as odd that God would ask “Where are you?” He already knew where they were. There must be more to the text here, a deeper meaning. It tells me that Adam & Eve were not known to God at that moment - they had turned their backs and were not in friendship with God. Had they died in that state they would not have been saved.

Thoughts?

 

[SunshineRose1]

Yep, errors are always plausible. Otherwise, nobody would believe them.

I was agreeing with the OP, but somehow I messed up posting (I’m new here, and still figuring things out). I think that you agreed with the OP, too. I’m still not saying that I couldn’t be wrong, but I don’t think that we actually disagree on this…

 

[tester]

tester,

Excellent - Good assessment! I agree with you it does look like Adam & Eve reconciled based on those facts. Even though they sinned grievously they reconciled and were ultimately saved. (Actually this is a very comforting thought that even Adam & Eve were given the grace to come back to God!)

Following the biblical text - can we say if they were still in the saved state immediately after eating of the tree?

Genesis 3
***8: When they heard the sound of the LORD God moving about in the garden at the breezy time of the day, the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9: The LORD God then called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?” ***

Reading into these passages it stikes me as odd that God would ask “Where are you?” He already knew where they were. There must be more to the text here, a deeper meaning. It tells me that Adam & Eve were not known to God at that moment - they had turned their backs and were not in friendship with God. Had they died in that state they would not have been saved.

Thoughts?

the next verses:

The man could not hide himself from the omniscient God. “God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?” Not that God was ignorant of his hiding-place, but **to bring him to a confession of his sin. **And when Adam said that he had hidden himself through fear of his nakedness, and thus sought to hide the sin behind its consequences, his disobedience behind the feeling of shame;

also note: that in our sinful nature, we don’t seek God , but that God came “looking” for man.

• “there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.”* Romans 3:11.

I know it may be just semantics:
but when someone says that they “found God”, i can’t help to think that it was not God who was lost , but that they were.

 

[danto]

The man could not hide himself from the omniscient God. “God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?” Not that God was ignorant of his hiding-place, but **to bring him to a confession of his sin. **And when Adam said that he had hidden himself through fear of his nakedness, and thus sought to hide the sin behind its consequences, his disobedience behind the feeling of shame;

Okay so you see it as a call to repentance, that fits nicely!

You didn’t respond to my point about what would have happened had Adam died at that moment though. It is a very hypothetical so that is understandable

 

[tester]

…
You didn’t respond to my point about what would have happened had Adam died at that moment though. It is a very hypothetical so that is understandable

I missed that part:
I think you are asking if between the time of their transgression and the covering of their sin by God: if they died were they saved?

It is very hypothetical and in many ways Adam and Eve are exceptions to the normal way God operates and may not be the best example to refute OSAS:

Does the word “saved” even apply prior to The Fall?
I’m sitting at my desk, can a life guard save me from drowning?

Prior to The Fall paradise was on Earth; after The Fall , paradise was no longer be on Earth.

But it will be again someday

Revelation 21 and 22

A New Heaven and a New Earth
21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Eden Restored
22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

Paradise lost will be Paradise restored.

HOWEVER: when did Adam know he was a sinner with a broken spirit, and a broken and contrite heart? When did he realize and trust that only God could get him out of his predicament?

We don’t know but that’s is when he was “saved”

Consider this from Psalm 51:
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart
you, God, will not despise.

 

[Philthy]

b) They were always saved, the fall didn’t cause them to lose their salvation.

that does mean there are no consequences to sin.

**The Bible does not specifically tell us **whether Adam and Eve were saved. Adam and Eve were the only two human beings who knew about God before they became tainted with sin. As a result, they **likely **still knew God better after their fall than any of us do today. Adam and Eve most definitely believed in and depended on God. God continued to talk with Adam and Eve and provide for them after the fall. Adam and Eve knew of God’s promise that He would provide a Savior (Genesis 3:15). God made garments of skin for Adam and Eve after the fall (Genesis 3:21). Many **scholars understand this **as the first animal sacrifice, foreshadowing the eventual death of Christ on the cross for the sins of the world.

In other words; Man sinned and an animal was sacrificed as a covering.

**The Bible does not tell us exactly **when the sacrifice system was strated but it **must have been **early.

Hebrew 9:22…and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Cain and Abel, the sons of Adam and Eve, “in the course of time” brought offerings to the Lord (Genesis 4:3). Without doubt, they were doing this because God had revealed it to them.
Some question, “How were Cain and Abel supposed to know what to sacrifice?”
The answer is that God (either directly or indirectly through Adam), must have instructed them.

It is clear that the offering was to be a substitutionary atonement, because we read in Hebrews 11:4, “By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did.” When Abel came for worship, it was by faith that he brought his offering, the “fat portions from some of the first-born of his flock” (Genesis 4:4). The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, and it was accepted.

Putting these facts together, it would seem that Adam and Eve were saved and did indeed go to heaven / paradise when they died.

One thing that is perfectly clear is that if we are forced to rely on Scripture alone, we have to make guess after guess after guess…
OSAS is easily refuted from Scripture, and most convincingly in 1Cor 6:9, Eph 5:5 and Gal 5:19-20. Read my signature…“you have fallen from grace” says it all…

 

[danto]

tester - Amen to those points! Adam was saved when he turned back to God, but from my perspective he could still through free will turn away again, and repent again…

Honestly I am very drawn to the way C.S. Lewis puts it in The Great Divorce, if we are saved we will look back on our lives and time on earth as an extension of Heaven. Perhaps we see the moment we were finally saved - it may be at death for most, by the grace of God it may be earlier in life - even to conception for one Woman. If we are damned we look back to see our lives as an extension of hell.

From God’s perspective outside of time? It may be He sees us as always saved or always lost… but all that would be a topic for another thread

 

[tester]

One thing that is perfectly clear is that if we are forced to rely on Scripture alone, we have to make guess after guess after guess…
OSAS is easily refuted from Scripture, and most convincingly in 1Cor 6:9, Eph 5:5 and Gal 5:19-20. Read my signature…“you have fallen from grace” says it all…

and yet I can find verses to support OSAS
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_Saints#Biblical_evidence

lots of them

it comes down to this: do i decide I am saved or does God?

Did I seek God?
“there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.” Romans 3:11.

Can the dead help themselves?
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, Eph 2:1

did Paul choose Christ?

John 10.29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

 

[tester]

…
Honestly I am very drawn to the way C.S. Lewis puts it in The Great Divorce, if we are saved we will look back on our lives and time on earth as an extension of Heaven. Perhaps we see the moment we were finally saved - it may be at death for most, by the grace of God it may be earlier in life - even to conception for one Woman. If we are damned we look back to see our lives as an extension of hell.

From God’s perspective outside of time? It may be He sees us as always saved or always lost… but all that would be a topic for another thread

or consider this:

for belevers: this life on Earth is the closest we will ever be to Hell:
for non-belevers: this life on Earth will the closest they will ever be to Heaven.

 

[elvisman]

and yet I can find verses to support OSAS
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_Saints#Biblical_evidence

lots of them

it comes down to this: do i decide I am saved or does God?

**Actually - you could come up with hundreds of verses to support OSAS - but that doesn’t mean it’s true. **You see - you have to take ALL of Scripture regarding salvation in context. There are literally dozens of verses that disprove OSAS. Scripture cannot contradict itself. It MUST harmonize with itself - otherwise the Bible is nothing more than a pack of lies.

The CONTEXT of Scripture disproves OSAS and supports the fact that you CAN fall away.

Did I seek God?
“there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.” Romans 3:11.

Can the dead help themselves?
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, Eph 2:1

did Paul choose Christ?

Paul cooperated with Christ (Acts 9:6-20) - and therin lies the key.
We must cooperate with God’s grace (1 Cor. 3:9) and remain faithful to the end if we want salvation (Matt. 10:22, 24:13, Rev. 3:5).

John 10.29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

NOBODY can snatch us out of God’s hand - that is true.
However, we CAN leave by our own accord:
**Rom. 11:22, ****Heb. 10:26-27, ****2 Pet. 2:20-22, ****1 Cor. 9:27, ****1 Cor. 4:4, ****Matt. 24:13, ****Matt. 10:22, ****Luke 12:46, ****Rom. 11:20-22, ****1 Tim. 4:1, ****Heb. 3:6, ****Heb. 3:12-14, ****Heb. 6:4-6, ****1 John 2:24, ****Rev. 3:5, **Rev. 22:19

 

[elvisman]

Did I seek God?
“there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.” Romans 3:11.

Matt. 6:31-34
***So do not worry and say, ‘What are we to eat?’ or ‘What are we to drink?’ or ‘What are we to wear?’ ***
***All these things the pagans seek. Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. ***
**But seek first the kingdom (of God) and his righteousness, and all these things will be given you besides. **

**Context, friend . . . CONTEXT. **

 

[danto]

tester - thanks for chiming in on the thread, glad to have your (name removed by moderator)ut

Great content all around, if possible, let’s please try to keep the thread on topic specifically if Adam & Eve refute OSAS rather than a general OSAS thread. Thanks everyone - God Bless!

 

[tester]

Matt. 6:31-34
***So do not worry and say, ‘What are we to eat?’ or ‘What are we to drink?’ or ‘What are we to wear?’ ***
***All these things the pagans seek. Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. ***
But seek first the kingdom (of God) and his righteousness, and all these things will be given you besides.

Context, friend . . . CONTEXT.

the context in Romans was those prior to being saved.(works of the unrighteous.
the context in Matthew is after being saved, (contrasting the pagans to whom he is talking to)

wow, were you off base on that, but you do have nice fonts.

Scripture cannot contradict itself.
Context, friend . . . CONTEXT.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

the context in Romans was those prior to being saved.(works of the unrighteous.
the context in Matthew is after being saved, (contrasting the pagans to whom he is talking to)

wow, were you off base on that, but you do have nice fonts.

Scripture cannot contradict itself.
Context, friend . . . CONTEXT.

Hello tester,

I have turned pretty much into a ‘lurker’ on these forums and subscribed to this thread when the op’s original post was the only post. I’ve been reading and thought you did well explaining your view, even though I disagree with it. You did a good job explaining how you derived at the belief, based on your or Calvin’s interpretation of scriptures (not sure of exactly whose interpretation influences your belief because there were ‘debating’ interpretations listed on the Wikipedia source you provided.

Now you say Scripture cannot contradict itself, yet you provided scriptures that support your view and others have provided scriptures that do not support your view. Aren’t these scriptures contradicting themselves if we’re not taking them all in ‘context’?