Once Saved, Always Saved. Always?

[ffg]

I like listening to convert stories, and I just thought of this question when listening to this current one…

The conversation just went to -

When the convert believed in Once Saved Always Saved, for issues of sin, like contraception, that was looked upon as (from favorable OSAS POV)…

“If sinful, that’s not good, but remember once saved always saved.”

However, when the convert told his friends with the OSAS POV that he was converting, they were concerned he was walking away from salvation.

For someone who supports the OSAS POV (or did) - Why does OSAS belief drop upon conversion for those still holding the OSAS POV?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Speak_The_Truth]

youtube.com/watch?v=LQCYzZckFCE

Watch this video. Below are 3 beliefs that go totally against what the bible teaches.

• They Believe you can confess your sins to a priest who can forgive you
• The Roman catholic church idolizes Mary, and many of the other saints
• They Believe in purgatory, despite it being mentioned NO WHERE in the bible.

Jesus Christ is the only one who can forgive you of your sins, no man has the power to for-give you

It says in the bible over and over again you shall have no idols before the lord your god. Did Mary die on the cross for our sins? did any saint die on the cross for our sins?

Jesus says in his own word numerous times that Hell is eternal, and that heaven is eternal also.

Please read the description of the video no how to be saved. Don’t take my word for it read what the KJV Bible actually teaches.

 

[ffg]

Well, that was fast.

While STT’s post got cut, I wrote the below, if someone else wants to answer. If you can still reply STT, I restated below.

Thanks.

Welcome to the forums Speak The Truth!

I hope you stay a while and defend your positions well. It makes good discussion.

I don’t think you answered my question.

It was specific, but poorly worded, and the 20 minute window ran out. How about this -

A person with an OSAS POV said that OSAS as related to sin, is treated like ‘thank God for OSAS’.

But when speaking of telling his friends who hold the OSAS POV that he was converting from the OSAS position, his friends dropped the POV for the circumstance thinking he was walking away from salvation.

Why?

Many Thanks,

Mike

 

[Hawkmaid]

I think it just goes to show you why OSAS doesn’t work. Logically speaking, if you’re always saved, why is it a problem to convert, or sin at all? It’s a paradox of what the Bible teaches, and it stuns me why it’s so widely accepted. I honestly want to hear from somebody who still strongly believes in it, as to me it makes no logical sense, let alone biblical…

 

[Kliska]

Well, that was fast.

While STT’s post got cut, I wrote the below, if someone else wants to answer. If you can still reply STT, I restated below.

Thanks.

Welcome to the forums Speak The Truth!

I hope you stay a while and defend your positions well. It makes good discussion.

I don’t think you answered my question.

It was specific, but poorly worded, and the 20 minute window ran out. How about this -

A person with an OSAS POV said that OSAS as related to sin, is treated like ‘thank God for OSAS’.

But when speaking of telling his friends who hold the OSAS POV that he was converting from the OSAS position, his friends dropped the POV for the circumstance thinking he was walking away from salvation.

Why?

Many Thanks,

Mike

I would imagine it would be the same idea of, “if they leave us they weren’t really of us idea.” Meaning, the person would probably be labelled a “false convert,” which would mean they were never saved in the first place in the eyes of the OSAS individual.

 

[Bonnie]

I never believed OSAS, but I later - after becoming a Catholic - found that the church I’d grown up in did teach that. I must have fallen asleep in Sunday School.

There is always an out to the OSAS position; if it becomes obvious that the person is never going to return to the “true” church, then that person must have never been saved in the first place.

Which brings up a conundrum: In my case, I was “saved” at the age of 6 or 7, in my teen years I responded to several altar calls. I’m not sure if OSAS people would call those experiences a reaffirmation of my being “saved” or being newly “saved.” At any rate, I stopped attending church for several years. But those who were convinced I would return were sure I was still “saved.” But then I became a Catholic. My poor mother thought I was hell-bound for sure. She eventually got over that idea, but I know others thought I was lost. And, of course, my early experiences of being “saved” were null & void - they were false - I had never been saved.

So my thought is this: since no one can know the future, how can a OSAS believer really KNOW he is saved?

 

[ffg]

Thanks for the responses.

Great to get an experience in as well.

I think there is something very purposeful in our experiences that is meant to teach.

A convert story I was listening to before the one that triggered this thread yesterday had a situation where the eventual convert, while Atheist, could not believe this man she was falling for in the scientific field believed in God.

His reason was because at Baptism he had an experience that he could not deny.

He saw a man standing before him as he came out of the water in radiant clothes welcoming him. It was not the pastor, who was in a suit, and the closest person to him upon entry.

Experiences we share can help those without the experiences re-write their theories.

I do hope as well, that someone who holds the OSAS position does give a little commentary.

I hope there is something more to it than playing Monday morning quarterback.

Take care,

Mike

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I think it just goes to show you why OSAS doesn’t work. Logically speaking, if you’re always saved, why is it a problem to convert, or sin at all? It’s a paradox of what the Bible teaches, and it stuns me why it’s so widely accepted. I honestly want to hear from somebody who still strongly believes in it, as to me it makes no logical sense, let alone biblical…

OSAS is a assumption; a tradition of the protestant communities.

Unfortunately, sola scriptura leads to selective scriptura…they don’t, for the most part, read the scriptures as a totality. They point to John 10 and a few others think salvation is a done deal. But they aren’t reading the whole book, obviously.

 

[JustaServant]

I like listening to convert stories, and I just thought of this question when listening to this current one…

The conversation just went to -

When the convert believed in Once Saved Always Saved, for issues of sin, like contraception, that was looked upon as (from favorable OSAS POV)…

“If sinful, that’s not good, but remember once saved always saved.”

However, when the convert told his friends with the OSAS POV that he was converting, they were concerned he was walking away from salvation.

For someone who supports the OSAS POV (or did) - Why does OSAS belief drop upon conversion for those still holding the OSAS POV?

Thanks,

Mike

It doesn’t.
It enters the realm of NSITFP or Never Saved in the First Place. IOW, if you were truly saved, you would never convert because OSAS. If you did, you were NSITFP.

 

[Bonnie]

It doesn’t.
It enters the realm of NSITFP or Never Saved in the First Place. IOW, if you were truly saved, you would never convert because OSAS. If you did, you were NSITFP.

I agree that that seems to be the thinking, but it makes no sense. One of the tenets of OSAS is that you know you’re saved. But if you later become Catholic, or join a non-Christian religion, or cross some other line in the sand, you were not saved when you believed you were.

I wonder where the belief that you can be certain of salvation comes from, especially since when stitched together with the idea one could be NSITFP (love that!) it makes no sense.

 

[Kliska]

I agree that that seems to be the thinking, but it makes no sense. One of the tenets of OSAS is that you know you’re saved. But if you later become Catholic, or join a non-Christian religion, or cross some other line in the sand, you were not saved when you believed you were.

I wonder where the belief that you can be certain of salvation comes from, especially since when stitched together with the idea one could be NSITFP (love that!) it makes no sense.

Depends on which branch of Calvinistic teaching one travels down. In one set of Calvinistic belief, you can’t know if you are elect or not until you die. In another, if you are well off and a hard worker, and don’t sin, that is proof. In another you can know, but it is completely interior, meaning no one else can judge that… etc …

 

[JustaServant]

I agree that that seems to be the thinking, but it makes no sense. One of the tenets of OSAS is that you know you’re saved. But if you later become Catholic, or join a non-Christian religion, or cross some other line in the sand, you were not saved when you believed you were.

I wonder where the belief that you can be certain of salvation comes from, especially since when stitched together with the idea one could be NSITFP (love that!) it makes no sense.

I still have Facebook friends from my Baptist days. I suspect, as I did at the time, they believe I am ‘still saved’, but in spite of the Catholic Church.
I guess I’ll sit in back row in Heaven.

 

[JustaServant]

Depends on which branch of Calvinistic teaching one travels down. In one set of Calvinistic belief, you can’t know if you are elect or not until you die. In another, if you are well off and a hard worker, and don’t sin, that is proof. In another you can know, but it is completely interior, meaning no one else can judge that… etc …

Another good point.

 

[ffg]

It doesn’t.
It enters the realm of NSITFP or Never Saved in the First Place. IOW, if you were truly saved, you would never convert because OSAS. If you did, you were NSITFP.

Well, that’s consistent with above.

If that’s the only answer, it’s very sad as…

Most of the converts, if not all of the converts whose stories I’ve heard - have a great appreciation for their history.

Telling them their earlier efforts were fruitless because they continued to seek God is just a slap in the face of someone who appreciates you.

Would have been great to see someone say (or more importantly, believe for the OSAS POV), ‘those folks were not practicing OSAS, and were wrong to make the exception of their friend’.

At least that would show a desire for foundation to the theory.

To come back later and say to someone that their efforts meant nothing, is more like -

OS*MS(*jdlfGeawwciA) -

Once Saved, *Maybe Saved (*just don’t look for God elsewhere, and we will call it Always)

Take care,

Mike

 

[JustaServant]

Well, that’s consistent with above.

If that’s the only answer, it’s very sad as…

Most of the converts, if not all of the converts whose stories I’ve heard - have a great appreciation for their history.

Telling them their earlier efforts were fruitless because they continued to seek God is just a slap in the face of someone who appreciates you.

Would have been great to see someone say (or more importantly, believe for the OSAS POV), ‘those folks were not practicing OSAS, and were wrong to make the exception of their friend’.

At least that would show a desire for foundation to the theory.

To come back later and say to someone that their efforts meant nothing, is more like -

OS*MS(*jdlfGeawwciA) -

Once Saved, *Maybe Saved (*just don’t look for God elsewhere, and we will call it Always)

Take care,

Mike

Yeah, that’s kind of hard to deal with. To the diehards (who refuse to friend me on Facebook) it was a royal waste of time.
Now, if you take this further, a young person can very easily slide into atheism if you tell them their entire life (when they were 'saved) was a sham and they need to ‘do it properly’ (actually heard that once). The fanatics in fundamentalism create more atheists that way than Richard Dawkins.

 

[Bonnie]

Now, if you take this further, a young person can very easily slide into atheism if you tell them their entire life (when they were 'saved) was a sham and they need to ‘do it properly’ (actually heard that once).

Years ago I knew a man who held a similar minority opinion. He believed that if you are truly saved you will never sin. He believed that since the day he was saved he had never ever sinned. I always wanted to ask his wife about that*.

*His wife did not share his beliefs and refused to join the home church he started.

 

[rcwitness]

A couple Scriptures which contradict OSAS:

Matthew 13

18*“Hear then the parable of the sower.19When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.20As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy*;21*yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.22As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.23As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

Hebrews 10

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,27but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.28A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.29*How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

Condemnation of OSAS is also a condemnation of faith alone.

Though it will be claimed that one who “falls away, or was sanctified, or has profane the body and blood of Jesus, or has spurned the His grace” was never saved at all. And that it is genuine faith alone that saves, and it’s fruit is only God’s glory.

Yet we know that God places one in a state of forgiveness/justification/salvation and the time afterwards renders their justification/salvation conditional to whether they endure with works of faith.

 

[JustaServant]

Years ago I knew a man who held a similar minority opinion. He believed that if you are truly saved you will never sin. He believed that since the day he was saved he had never ever sinned. I always wanted to ask his wife about that*.

*His wife did not share his beliefs and refused to join the home church he started.

Oh the stories I could tell. But that would derail the thread.

 

[benjohnson]

Years ago I knew a man who held a similar minority opinion. He believed that if you are truly saved you will never sin. He believed that since the day he was saved he had never ever sinned. I always wanted to ask his wife about that*.

*His wife did not share his beliefs and refused to join the home church he started.

If we say we are whiteout sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[total_Catholic]

OSAS is faulty theology and close to the mortal sin of presumption. Scary.