"Once Saved Always Saved" Christians: what reasons do you have for even trying so hard to avoid sin?

[ConvertHereYay]

A Christian who described herself as “Bible believing and non-denomination” and professing “once saved always saved” (used those words) once told me she thought she would still enter Heaven if she shot someone in the head and them was instantly killed herself immediately after without any chance to repent before God.

I actually asked her “if you shot someone in the head and then died right after without repenting, are you still saved?”

She was handing out “are you saved” pamphlets near a Catholic Church. We engaged in a 1.5 hour conversation about the Church, history, Sacraments, etc.​

My question is…

What reasons do you have for evening avoiding sin? Is it harder for you to resist sin, since certain sins do not deprive one of Holy Communion like they do in the Catholic Church?

---

If I hired a prostitite (I’m engaged too!) and she killed me while having sex before I had the chance to experience perfect contrition,** I will go to Hell. **-------
BTW, I’m not hiring a prostitite.

 

[cecilia97]

A Christian who described herself as “Bible believing and non-denomination” and professing “once saved always saved” (used those words) once told me she thought she would still enter Heaven if she shot someone in the head and them was instantly killed herself immediately after without any chance to repent before God.

I actually asked her “if you shot someone in the head and then died right after without repenting, are you still saved?”

She was handing out “are you saved” pamphlets near a Catholic Church. We engaged in a 1.5 hour conversation about the Church, history, Sacraments, etc.​

My question is…

What reasons do you have for evening avoiding sin? Is it harder for you to resist sin, since certain sins do not deprive one of Holy Communion like they do in the Catholic Church?

---

If I hired a prostitite (I’m engaged too!) and she killed me while having sex before I had the chance to experience perfect contrition,** I will go to Hell. **-------
BTW, I’m not hiring a prostitite.

This is a little different than the argument I have heard about OSAS. I’ve been told that the murder (shooting someone in the head) would be a sign that one wasn’t REALLY saved to begin with. So, I suppose one can never know if one is saved, after all? Should it really be called “hopefully once saved, hopefully always saved”?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

This is a little different than the argument I have heard about OSAS. I’ve been told that the murder (shooting someone in the head) would be a sign that one wasn’t REALLY saved to begin with. So, I suppose one can never know if one is saved, after all? Should it really be called “hopefully once saved, hopefully always saved”?

lol, I could never follow HOSAS, or any variation thereof. Too much uncertainty and false security. Interesting paradox, but there is OSAS.

 

[justamoose89]

I had this discussion with a friend once. They said that no matter what they do, if they’re saved, they’ll go to heaven because the Bible says that “Jesus will never leave you”.

I always found this funny because Paul also tells us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”, and he writes extensively to different Christian communities rebuking them on things they’ve done. If they were saved once and it doesn’t matter what they do, why would Paul even bother?

 

[Contarini]

A Christian who described herself as “Bible believing and non-denomination” and professing “once saved always saved” (used those words) once told me she thought she would still enter Heaven if she shot someone in the head and them was instantly killed herself immediately after without any chance to repent before God.

I actually asked her “if you shot someone in the head and then died right after without repenting, are you still saved?”

She was handing out “are you saved” pamphlets near a Catholic Church. We engaged in a 1.5 hour conversation about the Church, history, Sacraments, etc.​

My question is…

What reasons do you have for evening avoiding sin? Is it harder for you to resist sin, since certain sins do not deprive one of Holy Communion like they do in the Catholic Church?

Perhaps they agree with St. Francis Xavier:

1. 
   *]Cur igitur non amem te,
   O Jesu amantissime,
   Non, ut in cœlo salves me,
   Aut ne æternum damnes me,
   *]Nec præmii ullius spe;
   Sed sicut tu amasti me?
   Sic amo et amabo te,
   Solum quia Rex meus es,
   Et solum, quia Deus es.

1. 
   Or, if you do not know the ancient language of your Church:
   

   1. 
      *]Then why, O blessed Jesus Christ,
      Should I not love Thee well,
      Not for the sake of winning heaven,
      Or of escaping hell;
      *]Not with the hope of gaining aught,
      Not seeking a reward;
      But as Thyself hast loved me,
      O ever-loving Lord?
      *]E’en so I love Thee, and will love,
      And in Thy praise will sing,
      Solely because Thou art my God,
      And my eternal King.

   1. 
      Edwin

 

[SonCatcher]

Another issue is that this false doctrine renders some passages of Holy Scripture meaningless:
[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 6:4-6[/BIBLEDRB]

The writer plainly describes someone who was certainly saved but later falls away.

Thankfully, the writer was using hyperbole.

 

[SonCatcher]

Perhaps they agree with St. Francis Xavier:

1. 
   *]Then why, O blessed Jesus Christ,
   Should I not love Thee well,
   Not for the sake of winning heaven,
   Or of escaping hell;
   *]Not with the hope of gaining aught,
   Not seeking a reward;
   But as Thyself hast loved me,
   O ever-loving Lord?
   *]E’en so I love Thee, and will love,
   And in Thy praise will sing,
   Solely because Thou art my God,
   And my eternal King.

1. 
   

 

[Contarini]

I should add, in all fairness, that there’s some reason for the OP’s question, given that OSAS as generally promulgated reflects an unhealthy preoccupation with going to heaven and escaping hell. In other words, many who hold to it do so because they *don’t *agree with St. Francis Xavier.

But I’m concerned by how quickly many Catholics seem to assume that the only reason for doing good works is in order to be “saved” in the sense of going to heaven and escaping hell. That line of criticism actually makes Protestantism look good (perhaps better than it deserves).

Edwin

 

[aicirt]

I just had this discussion with a neigbor who is head of his own church. He insisted on OSAS and I couldn’t get my point across that you must perform good works too. What part of scripture supports the Catholic view? Common sense, to me, would indicate it but I need more.

 

[JackVk]

I just had this discussion with a neigbor who is head of his own church. He insisted on OSAS and I couldn’t get my point across that you must perform good works too. What part of scripture supports the Catholic view? Common sense, to me, would indicate it but I need more.

James 2:20: “Faith without works is dead”.

 

[cecilia97]

But I’m concerned by how quickly many Catholics seem to assume that the only reason for doing good works is in order to be “saved” in the sense of going to heaven and escaping hell. That line of criticism actually makes Protestantism look good (perhaps better than it deserves).

Edwin

Interesting…this is an attitude I associate more with the non-denominational Christians I know than the Catholics. One of my good friends used to constantly ask me, when I described some event going on at the parish or mentioned I had been to confession “why do you have to do that, you know you can get to heaven without having to do that”. Uhhh…because I love God and want to be close to Him, receive His graces through the sacraments, and/or apologize to Him for offending Him?

Oh my goodness, it’s such hard work! Especially going to the Adoration chapel…so difficult I can just hardly stand it! And hearing the priest say God forgives my sins…the AGONY!

Possibly, though, this is a misunderstanding between us. Some people (especially some protestants I know) think of heaven as a place with golden buildings, tasty foods, and streets paved with rubies. A sort of super-earth. The Catholic view of heaven is eternal union with God. So, when a Catholic is motivated by heaven, is he really completely focused on his so-called “reward”, or is he just worried about spending eternity with the love of his life aka God? I’m not saying Protestants don’t also have this understanding. But some folks I know spend a lot of time talking about all the jewels people will have in their crowns and so on.

 

[Sherry_G]

If a person believes that once they accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour, they are truly saved, as my sis-in-law claims, I see that she does not think it neccessary to even follow the Ten Commandments or any of the teachings of Jesus in order to “get in” to heaven. In fact, her Baptist minister says that baptism is not even really neccessary! I find it somewhat amusing that a Baptist doesn’t believe in Baptism

 

[Cairisti]

If a person believes that once they accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour, they are truly saved, as my sis-in-law claims, I see that she does not think it neccessary to even follow the Ten Commandments or any of the teachings of Jesus in order to “get in” to heaven. In fact, her Baptist minister says that baptism is not even really neccessary! I find it somewhat amusing that a Baptist doesn’t believe in Baptism

Sounds like my brother. He believes you just have to believe and your all ready to go. (I asked him, “so you can be a selfish miser and not do any thing for your neighbor and still get to Heaven?” “Yep” was his answer. Sigh) I did point out that Judas also initially believed.

 

[cecilia97]

Sounds like my brother. He believes you just have to believe and your all ready to go. (I asked him, “so you can be a selfish miser and not do any thing for your neighbor and still get to Heaven?” “Yep” was his answer. Sigh) I did point out that Judas also initially believed.

Satan believes in Jesus and had a personal relationship with Him in the desert…

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Most of the OSAS Protestants I know seem to do good out of love for God and their neighbor. Fear of Hell is not a factor in their moral decisions. In fact, when they do sin, one could argue that they are more capable than Catholics of making an act of perfect contrition when they repent. Since fear of Hell does not factor into their repentance, their contrition is, in a sense, more pure.

 

[cecilia97]

Most of the OSAS Protestants I know seem to do good out of love for God and their neighbor. Fear of Hell is not a factor in their moral decisions. In fact, when they do sin, one could argue that they are more capable than Catholics of making an act of perfect contrition when they repent. Since fear of Hell does not factor into their repentance, their contrition is, in a sense, more pure.

“seem to” are important words here. We cannot know their hearts, or most Catholics’ hearts, either. Of course, it would be wonderful if all Christians DID exactly as you say above. It’s not a race to see who can be the most perfect.

As the Litany of Humility says “Jesusm grant me the grace to desire that others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should”.

 

[autdrew]

This was the doctrine in the church I grew up in, a baptist one. I said my “sinner’s prayer” at 8, and tried to believe it. Buuut, being the obnoxious questioning bugger I am, I asked a lot of questions. I asked the question about accepting Jesus into my heart as my Lord & personal savior & then spending my life robbing, killing or even just cheating. Yes, I was told, Jesus died for you. His blood covers all your sins. So I asked No matter what I do, Im going to heaven? Yes.
One of the reasons I lost faith for many years. It didnt make intellectual sense to me then or now. If nothing impure can be in heaven, how could someone like a Stalin be there if he said his “sinner’s prayer” at 8? (I know he was not Protestant, just an example)

 

[Georgia]

This was the doctrine in the church I grew up in, a baptist one. I said my “sinner’s prayer” at 8, and tried to believe it. Buuut, being the obnoxious questioning bugger I am, I asked a lot of questions. I asked the question about accepting Jesus into my heart as my Lord & personal savior & then spending my life robbing, killing or even just cheating. Yes, I was told, Jesus died for you. His blood covers all your sins. So I asked No matter what I do, Im going to heaven? Yes.
One of the reasons I lost faith for many years. It didnt make intellectual sense to me then or now. If nothing impure can be in heaven, how could someone like a Stalin be there if he said his “sinner’s prayer” at 8? (I know he was not Protestant, just an example)

Mine was a similar experience. My Baptist church taught that you only risked having a lesser reward in Heaven if you lived a life of vice. You never had to go to church again once you had done your sinners prayer and you were still guaranteed Heaven. Billy Graham would have many crowns and the person who grew up to be a robber, a murderer, or a cheat, but was saved as a child, would have fewer crowns. That is, of course, assuming the criminal was really saved. We also believed that there would be some Catholics in Heaven. Yes, we really did say that occasionally.

Good works evidenced salvation and raised the level of eternal awards. They could lead to blessings as “the windows of Heaven were opened” with good things for the deserving. There was no major religious disincentive to doing a lot of things we were taught were sinful. God would make bad things happen, but losing Heaven was not one of them.

Obituaries in my home town newspaper often include lines about a person having entered eternal life with his Lord and Savior on whatever date. The same paragraph may mention that the deceased was “of the Baptist (or other) faith.” The translation is that no living person could testify that the dearly departed was inside a church in the last fifty years, but his sainthood is assured.

BTW, we often debated on whether baptism was really necessary and changed beliefs on that along with pastors.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

I should add, in all fairness, that there’s some reason for the OP’s question, given that OSAS as generally promulgated reflects an unhealthy preoccupation with going to heaven and escaping hell. In other words, many who hold to it do so because they *don’t *agree with St. Francis Xavier.

But I’m concerned by how quickly many Catholics seem to assume that the only reason for doing good works is in order to be “saved” in the sense of going to heaven and escaping hell. That line of criticism actually makes Protestantism look good (perhaps better than it deserves).

Edwin

Hi Contarini.

Thank you for saving me the trouble of making the same arguments. That kind of Protestant also also agrees with us Catholics that God has ways short of sending them to Hell that should make them confident that sinning will without fail make them sorry. Guilt and a miserable conscience is still going to teach that kind of Christian to behave better in the future.

I do see hell as a motive when our love of God has been diminished or extinguished through mortal sin, but we only have to look as far as ourselves to so why Christians who believe in once saved always saved, still succeed in some ways to avoid sin. OSAS is NOT a license to sin, and cannot be properly understood as such.

 

[Contarini]

Interesting…this is an attitude I associate more with the non-denominational Christians I know than the Catholics. One of my good friends used to constantly ask me, when I described some event going on at the parish or mentioned I had been to confession “why do you have to do that, you know you can get to heaven without having to do that”. Uhhh…because I love God and want to be close to Him, receive His graces through the sacraments, and/or apologize to Him for offending Him?

Oh my goodness, it’s such hard work! Especially going to the Adoration chapel…so difficult I can just hardly stand it! And hearing the priest say God forgives my sins…the AGONY!

Possibly, though, this is a misunderstanding between us. Some people (especially some protestants I know) think of heaven as a place with golden buildings, tasty foods, and streets paved with rubies. A sort of super-earth. The Catholic view of heaven is eternal union with God. So, when a Catholic is motivated by heaven, is he really completely focused on his so-called “reward”, or is he just worried about spending eternity with the love of his life aka God? I’m not saying Protestants don’t also have this understanding. But some folks I know spend a lot of time talking about all the jewels people will have in their crowns and so on.

Cecilia,

I agree with everything you say. I don’t think that the “why do it if you don’t have to in order to get to heaven” attitude is more prevalent among Catholics than among Protestants. And I agree that Catholics’ beliefs about heaven (and hell) are less inadequate than those of most Protestants (of course all our ideas are inadequate). But I persistently run across posts on Internet forums in which Catholics puzzle over why Protestants bother doing good works. This may be in part because Catholics notice their evangelical Protestant neighbors/friends being obsessed with just how you “get to heaven.” But it seems to me that some Catholics do indeed have the attitude that good works are how you “get to heaven” and are only important for that reason.

Edwin