once saved always saved confusion

[deb1]

This past week I had to visit my sister-in-law under trying circumstances. Her husband had died suddenly from a massive heartattack. Due to his abuse, she had been seperated from him for two years, but it was still a very sad occaion.

While staying with her, I engaged my sister-in-law in conversation about religion. Even though I used to be a fundamentalists, I don’t remmber having the same confusion about OSAS that she and her church have. LEt me give you an example:

There is a 16 year old girl that attends her church. The girl is from an incrediably troubled home, with drugs and alcohol and abuse. Social services has been called but thus far nothing has been done(this is in rural Alabama).

My sister-in-law expressed concerns that the girl’s salvation “took” this time. Confused, I asked what she meant. My sister-in-law said that the church had been working with the girl to get her to become a Christian. Three times they have convinced her to accept Jesus and three times they have baptised her. Each time they looked for signs that her behavior was changing to prove that they holy spirit was actually working in her life. She was suicidal and sexually active so they concluded that she was only looking for attention. So, they worked on her harder to get saved. This time, according to my sister-in-law, the girl is calmer and getting better grades. She is still sexually active but this is overlooked because she has assured my sister-in-law that she is using condomns.

It would make better sense for this church to provide heavy duty guidance for the girl. She is obviously searching for help or else she wouldn’t take the time to continue attending this church.(her parents don’t go)

It seems like the whole push in my sister-in-laws church is on this girl’s salvation and the hope that once she is saved the Holy Spirit by itself will change her life. No one cares that she is openly sexually active with one of the assistant pastor’s sons. Or that maybe she needs more help with the safety issues at home. Her stepfather abuses her and her mother.

Am I wrong in thinking that there is something odd about this church’s approach? How does a Catholic Church handle children from troubled homes with little guidance?

 

[catsrus]

three times they have baptised her.

I don’t understand this…

 

[jimmy]

catsrus:

I don’t understand this…

It basically means that the first two baptisms didn’t work according to them. They saw no change in the girl as a result of the baptisms, so they rebaptized her. Now she is saved and can’t be lost.

It’s like some magic formula a wala, your saved.

 

[deb1]

jimmy:

It basically means that the first two baptisms didn’t work according to them. They saw no change in the girl as a result of the baptisms, so they rebaptized her. Now she is saved and can’t be lost.

It’s like some magic formula a wala, your saved.

This is what I gathered from my sister-in-law. Their belief is that if you are truely saved then you will change your life. I do believe that the Holy Spirit works in our lifes. But her church seems to believe that there is no assistance needed beyond that. This is a girl with serious problems. She tried to commit suicide in the church’s bathroom.

I, myself, came from a troubled family. A very sweet elderly Catholic woman began asking me to spend the night with her and her hubby so that I could attend Sunday Mass with her. Although the woman never actively tried to evangilize me, her actions helped to lead me on the road to joining the Catholic church. She also spent a lot of time listening to me and discussing morality with me. I believe that she is one of the reasons that I didn’t become a morally bankrupt human being. She took the time to talk with me and try to offer some guidance.

 

[LittleDeb]

deb1:

This is what I gathered from my sister-in-law. Their belief is that if you are truely saved then you will change your life. I do believe that the Holy Spirit works in our lifes. But her church seems to believe that there is no assistance needed beyond that. This is a girl with serious problems. She tried to commit suicide in the church’s bathroom.

This one is news to me too. Were the Baptisms close together? How much do you know about your SIL’s church? Are they affiliated with anyone else?

This situation sounds almost creepy to me. The first thing that came to my mind was it sounded like random people trying to perform an exorcism. (I think I spelled that wrong but it is late and I can’t fix it!) So each time this young woman is willingly being dunked in water in the hopes that one of them will take?! I have not encountered that one before.

Lots of us have asked Evangelicals that if you are once saved then you never will sin again? I guess this group’s answer is, “Yes, OSAS and now sin-free.” Wow!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

deb1:

No one cares that she is openly sexually active with one of the assistant pastor’s sons.

So they all know whats going on?..maybe thats why they dont see a change.

 

[dal11]

Most protestants that I work with think all sin is the same. So how do they know she wasn’t saved. Isn’t her sins just like your sister-in-laws sins. All the same?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Here’s a really good example of why OSAS doesn’t work in practice.

The contention of many OSASers is that if you turn your back on Christ then you were really never saved to begin with, even if you sincerely believed that you were. Consequently, even though they will never admit it, they can’t REALLY know if their salvation “took” until they die and they find themselves in heaven, which sounds a whole lot like Catholic teaching if you ask me (which I know no one really was ).

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[deb1]

LittleDeb:

This one is news to me too. Were the Baptisms close together? How much do you know about your SIL’s church? Are they affiliated with anyone else?

This situation sounds almost creepy to me. The first thing that came to my mind was it sounded like random people trying to perform an exorcism. (I think I spelled that wrong but it is late and I can’t fix it!) So each time this young woman is willingly being dunked in water in the hopes that one of them will take?! I have not encountered that one before.

Lots of us have asked Evangelicals that if you are once saved then you never will sin again? I guess this group’s answer is, “Yes, OSAS and now sin-free.” Wow!

My SIL’s church calls itself Baptist, but in all fairness, I have never encountered Baptist that acted like this. I don’t kow a lot about her church. She lives in Alabama and because her brother-my hubby- is in the military so we have lived all over the country.

Not only does it sound creepy but I can’t help but think that they are doing harm to this young girl.

As far as OSAS…MySIL’s church had a fall festival while we were there. There was an illusinist- he assured everyone that he was not a magician- to entertain the kids. He gave a little speech on how Jesus could no longer see your sins when you put on the cloak of righteousness! On the drive home, my jubby immediately corrected our daughters and assured them that Jesus could see their sins.

 

[Truthseeker4]

deb1,

Is there any way that you can get into contact with this girl?

She is in need of some serious guidance because of her background and needs separation from the pastor’s son.

My fear is that she will eventually come to believe that all Churches are evil from the failures of this one.

Melissa

 

[deb1]

Truthseeker4:

deb1,

Is there any way that you can get into contact with this girl?

She is in need of some serious guidance because of her background and needs separation from the pastor’s son.

My fear is that she will eventually come to believe that all Churches are evil from the failures of this one.

Melissa

This is my worry also. It is obvious that she is seeking help but isn’t getting it. The sad part is that I believe that the right type of guidance would help her.

I am in NC, she is in ALabama. It would be hard for me to contact her. I met her a few times when I visited my SIL-this girl used to live across the street from my SIL. I haven’t been back to Alabama for six years, so it would be hard to begin a long distance relationship with her.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

deb1:

As far as OSAS…MySIL’s church had a fall festival while we were there. There was an illusinist- he assured everyone that he was not a magician- to entertain the kids. He gave a little speech on how Jesus could no longer see your sins when you put on the cloak of righteousness! On the drive home, my jubby immediately corrected our daughters and assured them that Jesus could see their sins.

Good for your “jubby”!!

This whole “God-doesn’t-see-my-sin-when-he-looks-at-me-but-only-the-blood-of-Christ” makes me feel sad for the people who believe it. Nothing, in fact, can be hidden from God. He sees all, He knows all. And wouldn’t you know?..He loves us anyway!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[deb1]

Catholic4aReasn:

Good for your “jubby”!!

I am very blind and just recently was forced to throw out my last pair of contacts. The new ones don’t come in until tommorrow. So, I am typing this by feel on the keyboard. I think that I will go kiss my jubby now.

 

[Truthseeker4]

deb1:

This is my worry also. It is obvious that she is seeking help but isn’t getting it. The sad part is that I believe that the right type of guidance would help her.

I am in NC, she is in ALabama. It would be hard for me to contact her. I met her a few times when I visited my SIL-this girl used to live across the street from my SIL. I haven’t been back to Alabama for six years, so it would be hard to begin a long distance relationship with her.

Ok. I agree the right kind of guidance would help her. Yes her suicidal tendancies is a call for attention. It is screaming out help me! Baptizing her uncountless times is not the answer. All I can do is pray for her.

Melissa

 

[allisonP]

I have always been taught and have interpeted the scriptures to say that once I am saved I am always saved.
That Christ died once for all.

I have never thought that if I left God then my salvation was never real. That seemed like a blanket statement to me and not accurate. Sorry if that sounds rude. I dont mean it that way.

Also, until I started reading what the CC believes I never doubted at all that I would one day be with my Lord in heaven.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

allisonP:

I have always been taught and have interpeted the scriptures to say that once I am saved I am always saved.
That Christ died once for all.

I have never thought that if I left God then my salvation was never real. That seemed like a blanket statement to me and not accurate. Sorry if that sounds rude. I dont mean it that way.

Also, until I started reading what the CC believes I never doubted at all that I would one day be with my Lord in heaven.

Hi Allison!

Maybe you don’t so much doubt your salvation Allison as you doubt whether or not all that you have been taught is actually objective truth.

Is it possible that you were mistaught or that you misinterpreted scripture?

Is it possible that God did, in fact, leave an infallible interpreter of his word so that Christians could be absolutely certain of the truth? Jesus promised all truth after all. Wouldn’t he provide an objective means for being certain of that truth?

Am I missing the mark on this Allison, or are you actively seeking the truth? It sounds to me like you are.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[RCCDefender]

allisonP:

I have always been taught and have interpeted the scriptures to say that once I am saved I am always saved.
That Christ died once for all.

I have never thought that if I left God then my salvation was never real. That seemed like a blanket statement to me and not accurate. Sorry if that sounds rude. I dont mean it that way.

Also, until I started reading what the CC believes I never doubted at all that I would one day be with my Lord in heaven.

Hey Allison! I work with a Baptist preacher. We discuss many of these issues.

He believes in OSAS - unless you backslide. If you backslide into sin then you weren’t really saved to begin with. He has been baptised twice, when he was fourteen and then again at twenty-one. He said after his first baptism he didn’t change, but after the second he felt the Holy Spirit come into him, and now he’s a changed man. He was “saved” before each baptism by a profession of faith. He says that baptism is not neccesary to get to heaven.

He also said that if you are saved/baptised in a Baptist church and you backslide, then they will erase your name off their books, like you had never been baptised at all.

 

[Lillith]

This similar circumstance happened in my SIL Missionary baptist church…only they did not Baptise the girl over and over again…just encouraged the alter calls over and over again…and I heard the same language…“it didn’t stick”

How many times do you have to ask the Lord into your heart to make it stick??? I have no doubt that this child was sincere at the moment that she made her sinner’s prayer and when she was baptised in the name of the Father Son and Holy spirit she became a Christian…but that doesn’t negate the fact that this poor child has to go back into a home that is abusive and does not teach morality…so sad.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

RCCDefender:

He believes in OSAS - unless you backslide. If you backslide into sin then you weren’t really saved to begin with…

Here is where the OSAS position falls apart. How can one be absolutely certain that he will never backslide? Obviously, he can’t.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Lillith:

This similar circumstance happened in my SIL Missionary baptist church…only they did not Baptise the girl over and over again…just encouraged the alter calls over and over again…and I heard the same language…“it didn’t stick”

How many times do you have to ask the Lord into your heart to make it stick??? I have no doubt that this child was sincere at the moment that she made her sinner’s prayer and when she was baptised in the name of the Father Son and Holy spirit she became a Christian…but that doesn’t negate the fact that this poor child has to go back into a home that is abusive and does not teach morality…so sad.

Where on earth do we find the sticking of salvation in scripture?

In Christ,
Nancy