Once Saved Always Saved--discussion with co-worker

[dje101]

Hello,

I started a conversation the other day with a coworker who says he is Baptist. We got on the topic of “once saved always saved”. He says that if person A asks Christ into his life, but then later on in his life decides to start sinning in every which way, then he was never really saved. He does not believe that one can lose their salvation, they are either saved or not saved. My understanding of the Catholic teaching is that one CAN lose their salvation, but that’s about as far as I can go. I’m still in the learning phase, so I wasn’t too helpful on answering back to him

Can I please get some help!

Thanks in advance,

God Bless,

dje101

 

[Cat_Herder]

[bibledrb]Hebrews 10:26-29[/bibledrb]

See also The Church, Sacraments and Salvation

 

[Zenas]

This is one of my pet peeves and it’s the main reason I set out to learn more about the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I suggest you share these passages of scripture with your friend:

Matthew 18:21-35. Here we see the servant who owed much to his master and could not pay. He begged for mercy and the master granted it (forgave him). Then the servant went to one of his own servants, who owed him a much smaller amount. The second servant begged for mercy and the first servant refused. When the master learned of his servant’s unwillingness to forgive, he revoked his forgiveness and threw him in prison. So, in this parable we have a master who forgives and then when the one he forgave does wrong, he revokes his mercy.

James 5:19-20. “My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” James is saying if any of the brethren (the saved) goes wrong, the one who turns him around will save his soul from death. So here is another example of a saved person who becomes lost and then is turned around and saved again.

Galatians 5:4. “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” This verse needs no comment.

Mark 4:3-20. This is the parable of the sower of the seeds. Note that the seeds that fall on rocky ground and among thorns grow and prosper at first, then fall away and die. These are the words of Jesus pertaining to those who receive the gospel.

There are literally dozens of places in the scriptures that teach against OSAS and only two or three that could be construed (wrongly I might add) to support it.

 

[JRKH]

Hello,

I started a conversation the other day with a coworker who says he is Baptist. We got on the topic of “once saved always saved”. He says that if person A asks Christ into his life, but then later on in his life decides to start sinning in every which way, then he was never really saved. He does not believe that one can lose their salvation, they are either saved or not saved. My understanding of the Catholic teaching is that one CAN lose their salvation, but that’s about as far as I can go. I’m still in the learning phase, so I wasn’t too helpful on answering back to him

Can I please get some help!

Thanks in advance,

God Bless,

dje101

This is their standard “out” for the OSAS doctrine, but what it does is undermine any practical application of the principle and makes it nothing more than an academic exercise.

Here is what I mean.

Ask your co-worker if he is saved.
He will most assuredly say “Yes”, he is saved.
Then ask him how he knows that he is really saved.
(wait for his answer)
Then ask him how he is different from person “A” (mentioned above) who undoubtedly also believed that he was truly saved all during the time of his life as a Christian - right up until he decided to reject the Lord and start sinning again.
The obviously answer is that your friend is no different than person “A”. He can have confidence that if he dies tonight that he will not be condemned…but can he be sure, can he KNOW that in five years he won’t reject the Lord and thus be shown to “never have been saved”?

Unless one can know with absolute certainty that he/she is one of the “Truly” saved and not one of those who are not truly saved in the first place, we are left with something that has no value in the daily life of the Christian.
We are left with, as Paul says, running the race, and working out our salvation with fear and trembling…

Peace
James

 

[hockeyfan]

This is one of my pet peeves and it’s the main reason I set out to learn more about the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I suggest you share these passages of scripture with your friend:

Matthew 18:21-35. Here we see the servant who owed much to his master and could not pay. He begged for mercy and the master granted it (forgave him). Then the servant went to one of his own servants, who owed him a much smaller amount. The second servant begged for mercy and the first servant refused. When the master learned of his servant’s unwillingness to forgive, he revoked his forgiveness and threw him in prison. So, in this parable we have a master who forgives and then when the one he forgave does wrong, he revokes his mercy.

James 5:19-20. “My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” James is saying if any of the brethren (the saved) goes wrong, the one who turns him around will save his soul from death. So here is another example of a saved person who becomes lost and then is turned around and saved again.

Galatians 5:4. “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” This verse needs no comment.

Mark 4:3-20. This is the parable of the sower of the seeds. Note that the seeds that fall on rocky ground and among thorns grow and prosper at first, then fall away and die. These are the words of Jesus pertaining to those who receive the gospel.

There are literally dozens of places in the scriptures that teach against OSAS and only two or three that could be construed (wrongly I might add) to support it.

I think these are some really strong readings. I would like to add a point and then a couple more readings. Dje101 your question implies that Catholics believe that thay can say they are saved, and that is not the case. We believe that we are always working on our salvation. When people ask me if I am saved, I say “I have been save, am being saved, and hope to eventually be saved.” I have been saved through Christ’s death. I am being saved through the grace of the sacraments like Baptism and Communion. I hope to be saved on the final day.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 10:12

Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.

Romans 9:11-24

Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number.

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministryk 14in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, [perhaps] he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.

In context, Paul was talking to the Christians to say that they shouldn’t be too confident because God can cut them out of his plan the way he did with the Jews.

 

[zz912]

Three questions you should ask him. They will prove that OSAS is false.

1. Ask him if he is truly, really saved.
2. Ask him if God has or is violating his free will, now or in the future.
3. Ask him if he can refuse to do the works of God.

These are simple yes/no questions, but he can’t amswer them, no OSAS believer can without exposing that he doesnt believe in OSAS. Scripture explicitly says we must do the works of God or we will NOT be saved.

 

[Lubomyr]

Boiling down what others have already said in this thread, OSAS is logically equivalent to “yes you can lose your salvation” for the simple reason that you can’t know whether you are going to sin in the future. Therefore you cannot know whether you are saved.

 

[JRKH]

Three questions you should ask him. They will prove that OSAS is false.

1. Ask him if he is truly, really saved.
2. Ask him if God has or is violating his free will, now or in the future.
3. Ask him if he can refuse to do the works of God.

These are simple yes/no questions, but he can’t amswer them, no OSAS believer can without exposing that he doesnt believe in OSAS. Scripture explicitly says we must do the works of God or we will NOT be saved.

I can see the protestant answer to these three questions as thus:
**

1. Ask him if he is truly, really saved.**
   Yes

**
There is no free will when it comes to salvation. I am one of the elect as evidenced by my conversion - I will be saved

3. Ask him if he can refuse to do the works of God.
Works are irrelevant (insert bible verse from Paul). We are saved by Faith apart from works.

Then will follow the lengthy discussion - back and forth - bible verse against bible verse to define works, predestination, faith, etc…

Don’t get me wrong these are good questions but they will require a lot of discussion and explanation and bible study to make any impression on the average OSASer - if you can make impression at all…

Peace
James**

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

See what Peter wrote about BELIEVERS who had accepted Jesus then went back to their own ways.

For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Or what about Paul? He doesn’t seem to believe in OSAS in the following passage from 1 Cor 9:25-27:

Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Both of the Scripture above are referring to “true believers”. I mean, if St. Paul was concerned about being disqualified, I think that we all should be mindful of persevering to the end.

OSAS is a dangerous snare and anti-biblical. The Scriptural evidence against it is truly overwhelming. The problem of the believers of this nonsense is that they are absolutely fixated on passages in Romans (and some others), which, if taken out of context with this scripture and some others could be construed as OSAS. However, the key to Scriptural interpretation is context. See if your friend has an answer for this scripture… every time I’ve cited it to someone who believes OSAS they are stumped. See this link for more scriptural evidence against OSAS.

 

[bobbynewby]

OK, I am a convert to the faith of only six years and I know it is possible to loose our salvation. I meet with some men who believe OSAS and I said that it is possible to loose our salvation. One of them then quoted Hebrews 6, 4-6 where it speaks about falling away. I told I did not think it meant what he thought it meant. He thinks it means there is no way back to salvation. My wife and I were discussing this and in verse 6 it says"…to bring them to repetance again, …" and we think that this means if they make a full confession of their sins and are absolved of their sins their salvation can be restored (they do not believe you have to confess your sins to priest and they do not understand apostolic succession). Otherwise, “they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.”
Please help explain this to him and the other OSAS thinkers I meet with. Thank you.

 

[Pitcharan]

OK, I am a convert to the faith of only six years and I know it is possible to loose our salvation. I meet with some men who believe OSAS and I said that it is possible to loose our salvation. One of them then quoted Hebrews 6, 4-6 where it speaks about falling away. I told I did not think it meant what he thought it meant. He thinks it means there is no way back to salvation. My wife and I were discussing this and in verse 6 it says"…to bring them to repetance again, …" and we think that this means if they make a full confession of their sins and are absolved of their sins their salvation can be restored (they do not believe you have to confess your sins to priest and they do not understand apostolic succession). Otherwise, “they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.”
Please help explain this to him and the other OSAS thinkers I meet with. Thank you.

The Bible demolishes OSAS at the very outset. In Genesis we had the Tree of Life and The Tree of Knowledge. Our first parents had the freedom to make their choice.

The most explicit demolition of OSAS may be found in books of Moses, when God offers the Israelites both Life and Death, urging them to choose Life.

When St. Paul himself was unsure of his own salvation; how can the OSAS thinkers be so sure of their salvation? “No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize”. (1Cor 9:27) * “—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.* (Php 2:12c)

However they may be right if this is what they meant: After the last judgement, once a person is saved it will be so for eternity

 

[bobbynewby]

Thank you for the response.
My main question still exists. How does (or can) a person get their salvation back after they have turned away and realized their wrong doing? Is a good and complete confession with the absolution of a priest enough to bring God’s Grace back into thier life? I am looking for the positve things that can be done to get back into a state of Grace.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you for the response.
My main question still exists. How does (or can) a person get their salvation back after they have turned away and realized their wrong doing? Is a good and complete confession with the absolution of a priest enough to bring God’s Grace back into thier life? I am looking for the positve things that can be done to get back into a state of Grace.

The answer is yes and I know this because I experienced it personally.

Peace
James

 

[Lubomyr]

The Bible demolishes OSAS at the very outset. In Genesis we had the Tree of Life and The Tree of Knowledge. Our first parents had the freedom to make their choice.

The most explicit demolition of OSAS may be found in books of Moses, when God offers the Israelites both Life and Death, urging them to choose Life.

That won’t work, Pitcharan, because that arrangement was for an earlier dispensation. If this guy believes in OSAS you can bet he rests it on Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5a, which he will interpret as categorically excluding moral choices made prior to forensic justification.

 

[dje101]

I think these are some really strong readings. I would like to add a point and then a couple more readings. Dje101 your question implies that Catholics believe that thay can say they are saved, and that is not the case. We believe that we are always working on our salvation. When people ask me if I am saved, I say “I have been save, am being saved, and hope to eventually be saved.” I have been saved through Christ’s death. I am being saved through the grace of the sacraments like Baptism and Communion. I hope to be saved on the final day.

I might have accidentally put the tone in my question that implies that I thought Catholics talk about being saved the same way Protestants do. During my discussion with him, I made a point to explain to him that there multiple verses in the bible that explain that salvation is a past event, current process, and future hope and event. He seemed to just disregard this.

 

[hockeyfan]

I might have accidentally put the tone in my question that implies that I thought Catholics talk about being saved the same way Protestants do. During my discussion with him, I made a point to explain to him that there multiple verses in the bible that explain that salvation is a past event, current process, and future hope and event. He seemed to just disregard this.

That is what I thought. I have been caught in that trap myself. I find when I am in a debate over things like this, the semantics are important. The reason why, in this context, is that you are giving him/her the home field advantage when you even accept the word saved.

I know you knew what I meant when you said saved, because you wouldn’t have had a reason to ask the question you asked if you hadn’t.

I hope the posts everyone here put up help you.

 

[Farsight001]

You’ve gotten great answers, but as an alternative, I like to use the free-will argument.

Ask him if he believes in free will. If he doesn’t, then the conversation is over and there was, of course, never a point to it in the first place because no amount of discussing is changing any minds since we don’t have free will.

Far more likely is that he will say we do have free will. Then you ask if it is a matter of free will to choose to follow God. (his terminology would be to “get saved”). He will of course say yes again. Then you ask him if this person who is now saved still has free will. He’ll say yes.

And this is where you ask something like “Doesn’t that then mean that this saved person still has the free will to turn their back on God and reject that salvation?” If he says yes, OSAS is out the window. If he says no, he must then reject free will. Either way, he has painted himself into a corner.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Thank you for the response.
My main question still exists. How does (or can) a person get their salvation back after they have turned away and realized their wrong doing? Is a good and complete confession with the absolution of a priest enough to bring God’s Grace back into thier life? I am looking for the positve things that can be done to get back into a state of Grace.

Well, that is easy… it is as much of an act of free will as is mortal sin… the answer is repentance. Jesus’ first words of ministry in the Gospel of Mark were “This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel”. Yes, by the way, we are reconciled to God through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. We are restored to grace.

 

[Julianah]

What I find strange about OSAS is that, if that is the case, then the Christian is no longer depending on Christ for his or her salvation. That just messes up the whole relationship.

 

[dje101]

What I find strange about OSAS is that, if that is the case, then the Christian is no longer depending on Christ for his or her salvation. That just messes up the whole relationship.

Good point, I never thought of it like that…

So the fact that salvation is past, present and future events, shows how we are ALWAYS dependent on Christ at every moment