P
pecatholic
Guest
Isn’t there an inconsistency if a protestant believes in once saved always saved & faith and works? Please explain.
- Status
D
Derwin_James
Guest
Most Protestants ascribe to one or the other, not both, because of the very inconsistency you mentioned. However, it is conceivable that one could be granted salvation through sufficient faith and works, and upon reception of salvation it could not be revoked, regardless of future faith and works.
Just a guess.
Just a guess.
M
MikeeK
Guest
Actually the Protestants that believe “once saved always saved” do so believe that God is sovereign in salvation. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 and you will find that outside of Christ people are dead in their sins and do not have any power to believe. “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith, not by works so that no man may boast.” is one of the most well known verses to Protestants.
If God granted salvation by His grace then there isn’t anything a human can do to rescind it.
This is a very short answer that others have taken whole books to explain but there is no contradiction.
If God granted salvation by His grace then there isn’t anything a human can do to rescind it.
This is a very short answer that others have taken whole books to explain but there is no contradiction.
K
kepha1
Guest
Protestants constantly confuse “works of the law” (ergon nomou) with “good works”, (ergois agathois) which is a different word with different meaning.
scripturecatholic.com/justification.html#justification-II
scripturecatholic.com/justification.html#justification-II
J
JerryS
Guest
The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Whatever justifies you before God will continue to be manifested in the saved person.
However, OSAS is a hoax. Once you have “saving faith” then God will protect your faith and you will persevere in that faith forever (and display the faith and works of a saved, faithful person). It’s supposed to be a source of comfort and strengthening, that you can have confidence in God and your faith forever.
However, if someone continues in sin or falls away at some point, then they are concluded never to have had saving faith in the first place. So how am I supposed to have confidence that I’m one of the elect and have enduring saving faith? I can’t. I can nurture my faith and strive to do good works to try and prove to myself and God that I really do have faith, but I can never have confidence that I have true enduring faith. I can hope I’m one of the elect, but I cannot know it. So, my perseverance ends up something that only God knows, which is no different from the Catholic position. It’s a nice theory, but of little practical value.
However, OSAS is a hoax. Once you have “saving faith” then God will protect your faith and you will persevere in that faith forever (and display the faith and works of a saved, faithful person). It’s supposed to be a source of comfort and strengthening, that you can have confidence in God and your faith forever.
However, if someone continues in sin or falls away at some point, then they are concluded never to have had saving faith in the first place. So how am I supposed to have confidence that I’m one of the elect and have enduring saving faith? I can’t. I can nurture my faith and strive to do good works to try and prove to myself and God that I really do have faith, but I can never have confidence that I have true enduring faith. I can hope I’m one of the elect, but I cannot know it. So, my perseverance ends up something that only God knows, which is no different from the Catholic position. It’s a nice theory, but of little practical value.
C
Crumpy
Guest
I’m not an expert on this, The preceding posts were very good, up to a point. I just don’t think that God expects an average person to be able to study all of scripture and figure this stuff out.
We all are subject to the sovereignty of God and I think we shouldn’t even play word games with that.
We all are subject to the sovereignty of God and I think we shouldn’t even play word games with that.
C
Cachonga
Guest
This is a very involved topic, so I will only give some brief comments at this time. The teaching of OSAS (as I have seen it practiced) is a lie right out of the pit of hell. It creates false hope and false brethren. I had a friend in college who had made a confession of faith at the age of 11, was baptized and became a member of the church. He didn’t drink or smoke, but he was a womanizer. He was taught that since he had confessed Jesus as his Lord when he was 11, then he was going to go to heaven regardless of how he lived his life. This is not scriptural at all! I do not believe in OSAS!
However, I do believe in the eternal security of the believer. The scriptures are clear that God chooses who He will save. “So why all the warnings about falling away?”, you ask. Go back to the parable of the sower. The seed sown is the word of God (preaching). It falls on different kinds of ground (hearts). Hard hearts don’t even allow the seed to take root before the devil steals it away. Some seed falls among rocks, springs up quickly, but withers when the sun comes out. This represents those who hear the Word, recieve it gladly (make a profession of faith, get baptized and join a church), but when persecution comes along, they drop out (I would think Judas Iscariot would fall into this category). Some seed falls among weeds/thorns. It grows up, but the weeds/thorns also grow and choke the plant so no fruit is produced. Again, these are people who hear the Word and recieve it gladly (make a profession of faith, get baptized and join a church), but then the cares of the world and lust of things comes along and chokes their faith, and they fall away. I would suggest that Annanias and Sapphira are excellent examples of this. Finally, some seed falls on good ground and produces fruit, 30, 60 or even 100 fold. If the seed is Gods Word in our heart, is it possible for the seed (once planted) to change from good ground, to rocky ground, then back to good ground? The ground the seed is planted in does not change! The warnings in Scripture about falling away are given because the ministers do not know what kind of ground a persons heart is. It’s also a way that we can check ourselves (“Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.” Phil 2:12 DR).
Good works could be as simple as giving a sandwich to a homeless person, or as miraculous as raising someone from the dead. Anyone, even those who reject God, can do “good” works. I do find some guidelines in Scripture that I can follow to see if I am performing proper good works, such as Matt 6:1-7. I also keep in mind the words Jesus spoke in Matt 7:21-23 (“Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.” DR).
However, I do believe in the eternal security of the believer. The scriptures are clear that God chooses who He will save. “So why all the warnings about falling away?”, you ask. Go back to the parable of the sower. The seed sown is the word of God (preaching). It falls on different kinds of ground (hearts). Hard hearts don’t even allow the seed to take root before the devil steals it away. Some seed falls among rocks, springs up quickly, but withers when the sun comes out. This represents those who hear the Word, recieve it gladly (make a profession of faith, get baptized and join a church), but when persecution comes along, they drop out (I would think Judas Iscariot would fall into this category). Some seed falls among weeds/thorns. It grows up, but the weeds/thorns also grow and choke the plant so no fruit is produced. Again, these are people who hear the Word and recieve it gladly (make a profession of faith, get baptized and join a church), but then the cares of the world and lust of things comes along and chokes their faith, and they fall away. I would suggest that Annanias and Sapphira are excellent examples of this. Finally, some seed falls on good ground and produces fruit, 30, 60 or even 100 fold. If the seed is Gods Word in our heart, is it possible for the seed (once planted) to change from good ground, to rocky ground, then back to good ground? The ground the seed is planted in does not change! The warnings in Scripture about falling away are given because the ministers do not know what kind of ground a persons heart is. It’s also a way that we can check ourselves (“Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.” Phil 2:12 DR).
Good works could be as simple as giving a sandwich to a homeless person, or as miraculous as raising someone from the dead. Anyone, even those who reject God, can do “good” works. I do find some guidelines in Scripture that I can follow to see if I am performing proper good works, such as Matt 6:1-7. I also keep in mind the words Jesus spoke in Matt 7:21-23 (“Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.” DR).
P
pecatholic
Guest
I guess it doesn’t make sense to me. I see salvation as a life long process until your death. If a person believes in faith and works, then that person believes faith is necessary for salvation and works is necessary for salvation. If at first you have faith and do good works and are saved and later don’t have faith or don’t do good works, then why would you still be saved? It seems inconsistent. It doesn’t seem there is proper justice there.
And if someone says, that person was never saved to begin with then it begs the question of a believer in OSAS, how does one know if they are not in that period as well of being sincere but later on may fall away. That is the point for us Cathoics that we don’t know until the end. Do you have any idea on how one would support the theory you stated?
P
pecatholic
Guest
P
pecatholic
Guest
What is the eternal security of the believer? It sounds as though if one believes in OSAS then you would be eternally sercured. Please explain. Thanks.
P
pecatholic
Guest
Thanks, but could you elaborate? I’m thinking that if one believes in faith and works, then they would believe in the ability of losing their salvation which contradicts OSAS.
C
Cachonga
Guest
OSAS does give a false sense of eternal security (I sometimes think of it along the same lines as the Catholic belief in the “infallibility of the magisterium”). The problem with OSAS (as I have seen it practiced) is that one beleives that a one time confession of faith is all that is required, and it doesn’t matter how you live after that. Paul addresses this in his letter to the Romans (for example, 6:1 and other places).
On the other hand, we know from Scripture that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him (“All that the **Father giveth **to me **shall come **to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.” John 6:37 DR emhpasis mine), and that those given to Jesus by the Father will be raised to eternal life in His kingdom (“Now this is **the will of the Father **who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.” John 6:39 DR emphasis mine). This goes back to the parable of the sower. Many hear God’s word preached, and many hearts are touched, but not every heart is “good ground”. Matt 7:21 says, “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (DR emphasis mine). Seems to me that if the Father draws me to Jesus, and it is His will that Jesus should lose none of those He has been given by the Father, then I can take great comfort in that knowledge. I do look at the warnings about turning back, and I check myself against them to see if I am staying on track. I’m not perfect or infallible, but I believe I have been called by the Father and given to Jesus, and I look to Him as the "author and finisher of my faith " (Heb 12:2).
E
EnterCanaan
Guest
Once saved by Christ, once Christ has given you a new resurrected soul, then that is sufficient for eternal salvation. As all the work is Christ’s.
I’ll tell you what is confusing to people, is that they don’t understand that just becuae they get baptized, and proclaim to their family and friends and to the whole world that they have been saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, means absolutely nothing. THAT is called works. meaning, they did something, such as baptizm, and they ‘ACCEPTED’ Christ, so they think that is all they need to become a saved child of God, But that action, is a work, it has substance, and it is the persons work, not Gods. Consequently, it is not a valid indicator of being saved, and it is mearly A COMFORT to them. They FEEL SAFE because they accepted Christ, but that does not mean they are actually saved.
that is the confusion.
The difference between works that a person does and good works which come as a RESULT of being given a new resurrected soul, is all about vocabulary.
A person needs to understand that anything ANYTHING THEY DO, means nothing. EVERYTHING IS A WORK and consequently, will not erase your sin and get you saved because we are all born spiritually dead and are not capable of saving ourselves.
When a person is given a new resurrected soul, then as a RESULT of being saved, good works such as FAITH, AND BELIEVING AND LOVE CHARITY HUMILITY KINDNESS AND… and… the most important INDICATOR… is an intence desire to be in the word of God. and INTENSE DESIRE.
All we have is indicators. INDICATORS… nobody knows if they are saved or not, which is why ‘ACCEPTING’ Christ means nothing, what did you accept, you accepted your own salvation plan basically, Not Gods, God has a PLAN, and if you accept, then that is work and that is YOUR OWN plan. Thus, contrary to the teaching of the bible.
Once you have been given a new resurrected soul by Christ, then at that moment, you are saved, and you can never lose that salvatin, so Once saved, your always saved.
If a person accepts Christ and falls into sin, then that person was never saved was he. Just declaring your saved was never an indicator to begin with, and that person is lying to themselves out of the comfort of believing they have been saved.
This is why the verse in Hebrews is so important. And we read in Hebrews 11:1
Now **faith is the substance **of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
You see, faith, which is the same word as believing, only one is a verb and one is a noun, has SUBSTANCE TO IT. Substance implies work.
However, once you have been given a new resurrected soul, then as a RESULT of being saved, you will have the FAITH OF CHRIST.
That is the deciding factor, your faith vs Christs faith. A person can only have faith, the faith OF Christ, if they have been saved by Christ.
Galatians 2:16 (King James Version)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
That is the faith in question, and you only have that faith, the faith OF CHRIST, if you have been saved. Thus, accepting christ, declaring you believe is as nothing, because it is only you doing work.
The difficult thing to grasp is whos faith do I have. Am I saved by the faith of Christ because I feel like I am saved, or am I not saved and only feel like I have faith.
Well in that case we have indicators.
for one, a deep and intense desire to do the will of God. And all those things written of in the bible, is the will of God, the law of God. So an intense desire to study it, be close to it,is a good INDICATOR. again, nobody can know for certian.
Also, if you sin, which a person still can do, because remember, just because we have been given a new resurrected soul, our bodies are still sin cursed, and we will struggle with sin because our bodies are sin, until the last day when we are given a new glorified body. So we struggle with sin, our most desirable sin will always be at war with our new clean, sin free soul.
And if you sin, you have intense shame, intense guilt, and you become broken before God and beg for mercy. Yes, even though you are saved, we continue to approach God broken and humble, and beg for mercy. BEcause
BECAUSE, we just don’t know if we are saved, so we continue to beg for that mercy. This is a good indicator you might be saved.
Volunteering, helping the homless, charity, baptizm, these are all works, they don’t get you to heaven. these are nice things to do, and make you feel better, but doing them is not an indicator that you are going to heaven, and doing them in the hopes of being saved is contrary to the bible.
Now once you have been saved, then as a result these things will become evident in your life, and are called good works but these things in themselves don’t get you saved, they are good works a Christian will do as a result, because his heart has been changed into something eternal.
A saved person, can still fall into sin, it doesnt mean they have become unsaved. We have a new resurrected soul and a sin cursed body, the spiritual war between good and evil within ourselves will rage until our dying breath. yet once we recieve a new soul, we are sanctified, meaning, we are set apart, and considered a chosen child of God, all sins past present and future are forgiven the second, the instant, we get a new soul.
I’ll tell you what is confusing to people, is that they don’t understand that just becuae they get baptized, and proclaim to their family and friends and to the whole world that they have been saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, means absolutely nothing. THAT is called works. meaning, they did something, such as baptizm, and they ‘ACCEPTED’ Christ, so they think that is all they need to become a saved child of God, But that action, is a work, it has substance, and it is the persons work, not Gods. Consequently, it is not a valid indicator of being saved, and it is mearly A COMFORT to them. They FEEL SAFE because they accepted Christ, but that does not mean they are actually saved.
that is the confusion.
The difference between works that a person does and good works which come as a RESULT of being given a new resurrected soul, is all about vocabulary.
A person needs to understand that anything ANYTHING THEY DO, means nothing. EVERYTHING IS A WORK and consequently, will not erase your sin and get you saved because we are all born spiritually dead and are not capable of saving ourselves.
When a person is given a new resurrected soul, then as a RESULT of being saved, good works such as FAITH, AND BELIEVING AND LOVE CHARITY HUMILITY KINDNESS AND… and… the most important INDICATOR… is an intence desire to be in the word of God. and INTENSE DESIRE.
All we have is indicators. INDICATORS… nobody knows if they are saved or not, which is why ‘ACCEPTING’ Christ means nothing, what did you accept, you accepted your own salvation plan basically, Not Gods, God has a PLAN, and if you accept, then that is work and that is YOUR OWN plan. Thus, contrary to the teaching of the bible.
Once you have been given a new resurrected soul by Christ, then at that moment, you are saved, and you can never lose that salvatin, so Once saved, your always saved.
If a person accepts Christ and falls into sin, then that person was never saved was he. Just declaring your saved was never an indicator to begin with, and that person is lying to themselves out of the comfort of believing they have been saved.
This is why the verse in Hebrews is so important. And we read in Hebrews 11:1
Now **faith is the substance **of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
You see, faith, which is the same word as believing, only one is a verb and one is a noun, has SUBSTANCE TO IT. Substance implies work.
However, once you have been given a new resurrected soul, then as a RESULT of being saved, you will have the FAITH OF CHRIST.
That is the deciding factor, your faith vs Christs faith. A person can only have faith, the faith OF Christ, if they have been saved by Christ.
Galatians 2:16 (King James Version)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
That is the faith in question, and you only have that faith, the faith OF CHRIST, if you have been saved. Thus, accepting christ, declaring you believe is as nothing, because it is only you doing work.
The difficult thing to grasp is whos faith do I have. Am I saved by the faith of Christ because I feel like I am saved, or am I not saved and only feel like I have faith.
Well in that case we have indicators.
for one, a deep and intense desire to do the will of God. And all those things written of in the bible, is the will of God, the law of God. So an intense desire to study it, be close to it,is a good INDICATOR. again, nobody can know for certian.
Also, if you sin, which a person still can do, because remember, just because we have been given a new resurrected soul, our bodies are still sin cursed, and we will struggle with sin because our bodies are sin, until the last day when we are given a new glorified body. So we struggle with sin, our most desirable sin will always be at war with our new clean, sin free soul.
And if you sin, you have intense shame, intense guilt, and you become broken before God and beg for mercy. Yes, even though you are saved, we continue to approach God broken and humble, and beg for mercy. BEcause
BECAUSE, we just don’t know if we are saved, so we continue to beg for that mercy. This is a good indicator you might be saved.
Volunteering, helping the homless, charity, baptizm, these are all works, they don’t get you to heaven. these are nice things to do, and make you feel better, but doing them is not an indicator that you are going to heaven, and doing them in the hopes of being saved is contrary to the bible.
Now once you have been saved, then as a result these things will become evident in your life, and are called good works but these things in themselves don’t get you saved, they are good works a Christian will do as a result, because his heart has been changed into something eternal.
A saved person, can still fall into sin, it doesnt mean they have become unsaved. We have a new resurrected soul and a sin cursed body, the spiritual war between good and evil within ourselves will rage until our dying breath. yet once we recieve a new soul, we are sanctified, meaning, we are set apart, and considered a chosen child of God, all sins past present and future are forgiven the second, the instant, we get a new soul.
R
rein_me_in_Lord
Guest
The Pentecostal lady wrote:
"Once you have been given a new resurrected soul by Christ, then at that moment, you are saved, and you can never lose that salvatin, so Once saved, your always saved.
If a person accepts Christ and falls into sin, then that person was never saved was he. Just declaring your saved was never an indicator to begin with, and that person is lying to themselves out of the comfort of believing they have been saved.
This is why the verse in Hebrews is so important. And we read in Hebrews 11:1
Now **faith is the substance **of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
You see, faith, which is the same word as believing, only one is a verb and one is a noun, has SUBSTANCE TO IT. Substance implies work.
However, once you have been given a new resurrected soul, then as a RESULT of being saved, you will have the FAITH OF CHRIST.
That is the deciding factor, your faith vs Christs faith. A person can only have faith, the faith OF Christ, if they have been saved by Christ.
Galatians 2:16 (King James Version)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
That is the faith in question, and you only have that faith, the faith OF CHRIST, if you have been saved. Thus, accepting christ, declaring you believe is as nothing, because it is only you doing work.
The difficult thing to grasp is whos faith do I have. Am I saved by the faith of Christ because I feel like I am saved, or am I not saved and only feel like I have faith.
Well in that case we have indicators.
for one, a deep and intense desire to do the will of God. And all those things written of in the bible, is the will of God, the law of God. So an intense desire to study it, be close to it,is a good INDICATOR. again, nobody can know for certian.
Also, if you sin, which a person still can do, because remember, just because we have been given a new resurrected soul, our bodies are still sin cursed, and we will struggle with sin because our bodies are sin, until the last day when we are given a new glorified body. So we struggle with sin, our most desirable sin will always be at war with our new clean, sin free soul.
And if you sin, you have intense shame, intense guilt, and you become broken before God and beg for mercy. Yes, even though you are saved, we continue to approach God broken and humble, and beg for mercy. BEcause
BECAUSE, we just don’t know if we are saved, so we continue to beg for that mercy. This is a good indicator you might be saved.
Volunteering, helping the homless, charity, baptizm, these are all works, they don’t get you to heaven. these are nice things to do, and make you feel better, but doing them is not an indicator that you are going to heaven, and doing them in the hopes of being saved is contrary to the bible.
Now once you have been saved, then as a result these things will become evident in your life, and are called good works but these things in themselves don’t get you saved, they are good works a Christian will do as a result, because his heart has been changed into something eternal.
A saved person, can still fall into sin, it doesnt mean they have become unsaved. We have a new resurrected soul and a sin cursed body, the spiritual war between good and evil within ourselves will rage until our dying breath. yet once we recieve a new soul, we are sanctified, meaning, we are set apart, and considered a chosen child of God, all sins past present and future are forgiven the second, the instant, we get a new soul."
Just curious about something. I read history and find that from the time of Christ until the 16th century there is, aside from a few heretical sects of nefarious reputation, only one Christian religious denomination mentioned: the Catholic Church. Does your reading of history confirm the same? If so, then that would mean that for 1500 years Christ’s Church and the Catholic Church were one and the same. If not, then that would mean that immediately after Christ founded His Church a usurper, calling itself the Catholic Church, rushed in and falsely claimed that it was the Church that Christ founded. Now, if that were the case, then that would mean that God allowed a fraud to be perpetrated for one-and-one-half THOUSAND YEARS! But maybe you have a third possibility to explain what appears to be a conundrum for those who claim the Catholic Church was never the Church founded by Christ.
"Once you have been given a new resurrected soul by Christ, then at that moment, you are saved, and you can never lose that salvatin, so Once saved, your always saved.
If a person accepts Christ and falls into sin, then that person was never saved was he. Just declaring your saved was never an indicator to begin with, and that person is lying to themselves out of the comfort of believing they have been saved.
This is why the verse in Hebrews is so important. And we read in Hebrews 11:1
Now **faith is the substance **of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
You see, faith, which is the same word as believing, only one is a verb and one is a noun, has SUBSTANCE TO IT. Substance implies work.
However, once you have been given a new resurrected soul, then as a RESULT of being saved, you will have the FAITH OF CHRIST.
That is the deciding factor, your faith vs Christs faith. A person can only have faith, the faith OF Christ, if they have been saved by Christ.
Galatians 2:16 (King James Version)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
That is the faith in question, and you only have that faith, the faith OF CHRIST, if you have been saved. Thus, accepting christ, declaring you believe is as nothing, because it is only you doing work.
The difficult thing to grasp is whos faith do I have. Am I saved by the faith of Christ because I feel like I am saved, or am I not saved and only feel like I have faith.
Well in that case we have indicators.
for one, a deep and intense desire to do the will of God. And all those things written of in the bible, is the will of God, the law of God. So an intense desire to study it, be close to it,is a good INDICATOR. again, nobody can know for certian.
Also, if you sin, which a person still can do, because remember, just because we have been given a new resurrected soul, our bodies are still sin cursed, and we will struggle with sin because our bodies are sin, until the last day when we are given a new glorified body. So we struggle with sin, our most desirable sin will always be at war with our new clean, sin free soul.
And if you sin, you have intense shame, intense guilt, and you become broken before God and beg for mercy. Yes, even though you are saved, we continue to approach God broken and humble, and beg for mercy. BEcause
BECAUSE, we just don’t know if we are saved, so we continue to beg for that mercy. This is a good indicator you might be saved.
Volunteering, helping the homless, charity, baptizm, these are all works, they don’t get you to heaven. these are nice things to do, and make you feel better, but doing them is not an indicator that you are going to heaven, and doing them in the hopes of being saved is contrary to the bible.
Now once you have been saved, then as a result these things will become evident in your life, and are called good works but these things in themselves don’t get you saved, they are good works a Christian will do as a result, because his heart has been changed into something eternal.
A saved person, can still fall into sin, it doesnt mean they have become unsaved. We have a new resurrected soul and a sin cursed body, the spiritual war between good and evil within ourselves will rage until our dying breath. yet once we recieve a new soul, we are sanctified, meaning, we are set apart, and considered a chosen child of God, all sins past present and future are forgiven the second, the instant, we get a new soul."
Just curious about something. I read history and find that from the time of Christ until the 16th century there is, aside from a few heretical sects of nefarious reputation, only one Christian religious denomination mentioned: the Catholic Church. Does your reading of history confirm the same? If so, then that would mean that for 1500 years Christ’s Church and the Catholic Church were one and the same. If not, then that would mean that immediately after Christ founded His Church a usurper, calling itself the Catholic Church, rushed in and falsely claimed that it was the Church that Christ founded. Now, if that were the case, then that would mean that God allowed a fraud to be perpetrated for one-and-one-half THOUSAND YEARS! But maybe you have a third possibility to explain what appears to be a conundrum for those who claim the Catholic Church was never the Church founded by Christ.
C
Cachonga
Guest
rein me in Lord:
I would be happy to answer this, but how does it apply to the topic of the thread?
E
EnterCanaan
Guest
Sense you are unaware of the power of the bible, I’ll take the time to disprove a single point from your list. how do we know the sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday, very easily, by listening to the bible, ths is bible doctrine, which I will prove to you, and is the ultimate authority, the church is the established institution by God, but He commised them to preach the Gospel and KEEP HIS WORDS. His words are in the bible, that is the only sourcebook of truth, shall we begin.
Gen 2:2 And on the **seventh day **God ended **His work **which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
God rested on the seventh day and sanctified it because of the work which He had done. This is Gods law, it isn’t a tradition, it is a law, He wants you to obey, if you obey, you are worthy to live, if you disobey then you are in sin and in rebellion against God. It is not a law we today can understand what with our technology, football and fast cars, but when the world first started, things moved much slower, anyway for God’s own purpose, He instituted this law, and it must be obeyed
Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and **rested the seventh **day; wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Re-iterated a couple of generations later to Moses, because at that point nobody new God personally, Moses was the first to know Him at this time, and God told Moses how He made the earth, and that on the seventh day He rested, He gave the law that Moses should too…
Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Exodus 31:16
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
The children of Israel are told by Moses that this is a covenant, an perpetual covenant, a law in other words. It is a law which they must observe. This is not a tradition, it is not a ceremony, it is a LAW which they must obey or they are stoned to death. they are killed, which is a picture pointing to how we die spiritually if we do any work. in the old testament, they were not to do any work on the sabbath, pointing to the fact that Christ did all the work, today, we are not to do any work believing it will get us saved, same concept, We cannot save oursleves, Christ has to do the work.
Hosea 2:11
**I will **also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
Uh oh, God is upset, He saying soon it will be ended, people are becoming apostate, and not obeying, instead they are beginning to create there own holy traditions which is contrary to what God wants.
Amos 8:5
Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
Its quite obvious that everybody is rebelling against God by now.
Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The old covenant is broken, which became tradition instead of reverance. God is saying let no man hold you to the tradition of law of the old, for that is now broken
Matthew 28:1
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Mark 16:2
And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
Mark 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Luke 24:1
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
John 20:1
The **first day of the week **cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
1 Corinthians 16:2
**Upon the first day of the week **let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
The bible teaches, the end of the generation of sabbaths has ended, and the new sabbath, the first of the week, which is sunday, when christ rose, is the new sabbath.
Not church teaching. sorry, trust in the word of God more instead.
Gen 2:2 And on the **seventh day **God ended **His work **which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
God rested on the seventh day and sanctified it because of the work which He had done. This is Gods law, it isn’t a tradition, it is a law, He wants you to obey, if you obey, you are worthy to live, if you disobey then you are in sin and in rebellion against God. It is not a law we today can understand what with our technology, football and fast cars, but when the world first started, things moved much slower, anyway for God’s own purpose, He instituted this law, and it must be obeyed
Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and **rested the seventh **day; wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Re-iterated a couple of generations later to Moses, because at that point nobody new God personally, Moses was the first to know Him at this time, and God told Moses how He made the earth, and that on the seventh day He rested, He gave the law that Moses should too…
Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Exodus 31:16
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
The children of Israel are told by Moses that this is a covenant, an perpetual covenant, a law in other words. It is a law which they must observe. This is not a tradition, it is not a ceremony, it is a LAW which they must obey or they are stoned to death. they are killed, which is a picture pointing to how we die spiritually if we do any work. in the old testament, they were not to do any work on the sabbath, pointing to the fact that Christ did all the work, today, we are not to do any work believing it will get us saved, same concept, We cannot save oursleves, Christ has to do the work.
Hosea 2:11
**I will **also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
Uh oh, God is upset, He saying soon it will be ended, people are becoming apostate, and not obeying, instead they are beginning to create there own holy traditions which is contrary to what God wants.
Amos 8:5
Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
Its quite obvious that everybody is rebelling against God by now.
Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The old covenant is broken, which became tradition instead of reverance. God is saying let no man hold you to the tradition of law of the old, for that is now broken
Matthew 28:1
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Mark 16:2
And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
Mark 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Luke 24:1
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
John 20:1
The **first day of the week **cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
1 Corinthians 16:2
**Upon the first day of the week **let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
The bible teaches, the end of the generation of sabbaths has ended, and the new sabbath, the first of the week, which is sunday, when christ rose, is the new sabbath.
Not church teaching. sorry, trust in the word of God more instead.
M
MikeeK
Guest
I’m new. Are all the strings this long?
Just a couple of comments
First, thanks to pecatholic who quoted me. I think that’s a first. As to the question of freewill, where is that anywhere in the Bible? The Bible actually says that in our natural state people are slaves to sin, they do not have freewill. Romans 6 explains it well. Ephesians 2:10 actually proves the OSAS because God chose us point because it says God created us and created our good works for us to walk in. A point of trivia - the word there when it says “we are God’s workmanship” is that we are God’s “poems”. Isn’t it cool to think of a genuine Christian as one of God’s poems?
As to whether you can “know” you are going to heaven or just suppose and hope you are, the Apostle John wrote the whole book of 1 John so his readers would know that they were genuine. It’s the theme of the whole book. I’ve been reading it a lot lately because I realized I’ve more or less ignored it for years and it is very helpful.
I realize that there are people who teach once you sign a card or raise a hand or say a prayer you qualify for once saved always saved and I don’t see any support for that in the Scriptures. Romans 8 does say pretty clearly that everyone who is justified is also glorified so anyone who is legitimately saved will be in heaven. There are lots of other references but some are mentioned here elsewhere so I will not bore anyone.
Kepha1, I don’t know a single Protestant who “confuses” works of the law with good works the way you describe. I do know a lot of Catholics who do good works as a law unto themselves and think they are somehow earning God’s favor and that’s a shame. Saved or not, our righteous acts are just filthy rags to a perfectly holy God and have nothing to do with getting to heaven (although they do validate the sincerity of our faith).
Crumpy - don’t give up so easily! Of course God wants the average person to understand the Scriptures and figure this stuff out. The whole New Testament was written to ordinary people in the common languages of the day. God has promised His Holy Spirit to illuminate His truth to us so open up your Bible and do it. Try picking a small book like 1 John and reading it every day for a month. By the end you will have a very good sense of what God means to say. Remember that all of the bible has grammatical, historical, geographical and literary contexts but there are lots of good, free commentaries to help with that stuff. Many of them are written by Protestants because the Catholic church didn’t even want regular people to hear the mass in anything but Latin until recently, let alone read something but I think you will find them beneficial.
rein me in Lord - you are a hoot. Post your last question in another thread and we’ll have a good time seeing how well you know church history.
Just a couple of comments
First, thanks to pecatholic who quoted me. I think that’s a first. As to the question of freewill, where is that anywhere in the Bible? The Bible actually says that in our natural state people are slaves to sin, they do not have freewill. Romans 6 explains it well. Ephesians 2:10 actually proves the OSAS because God chose us point because it says God created us and created our good works for us to walk in. A point of trivia - the word there when it says “we are God’s workmanship” is that we are God’s “poems”. Isn’t it cool to think of a genuine Christian as one of God’s poems?
As to whether you can “know” you are going to heaven or just suppose and hope you are, the Apostle John wrote the whole book of 1 John so his readers would know that they were genuine. It’s the theme of the whole book. I’ve been reading it a lot lately because I realized I’ve more or less ignored it for years and it is very helpful.
I realize that there are people who teach once you sign a card or raise a hand or say a prayer you qualify for once saved always saved and I don’t see any support for that in the Scriptures. Romans 8 does say pretty clearly that everyone who is justified is also glorified so anyone who is legitimately saved will be in heaven. There are lots of other references but some are mentioned here elsewhere so I will not bore anyone.
Kepha1, I don’t know a single Protestant who “confuses” works of the law with good works the way you describe. I do know a lot of Catholics who do good works as a law unto themselves and think they are somehow earning God’s favor and that’s a shame. Saved or not, our righteous acts are just filthy rags to a perfectly holy God and have nothing to do with getting to heaven (although they do validate the sincerity of our faith).
Crumpy - don’t give up so easily! Of course God wants the average person to understand the Scriptures and figure this stuff out. The whole New Testament was written to ordinary people in the common languages of the day. God has promised His Holy Spirit to illuminate His truth to us so open up your Bible and do it. Try picking a small book like 1 John and reading it every day for a month. By the end you will have a very good sense of what God means to say. Remember that all of the bible has grammatical, historical, geographical and literary contexts but there are lots of good, free commentaries to help with that stuff. Many of them are written by Protestants because the Catholic church didn’t even want regular people to hear the mass in anything but Latin until recently, let alone read something but I think you will find them beneficial.
rein me in Lord - you are a hoot. Post your last question in another thread and we’ll have a good time seeing how well you know church history.
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