Once saved, always saved--please help me understand this

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***Last week, a 48 yr old man opened fire in a LA Fitness gym, in Pittsburgh, not too far from where my family and I moved from. He also then turned the gun on himself, taking his own life. In reading some of the news articles, it was mentioned that he belonged at one time to a non-denom church, where they taught that once a person is saved, he/she is always saved, and their salvation is never lost. He actually commented on that in his online blog/diary, leading up to the killings.

The interesting thing to note also, was that when questioned, the pastor of that church said…‘we don’t pray for dead people, only the living. [George] will be accountable before God, only God can judge him. But, we believe he is in heaven, because once a person is saved, they are always saved.’

I know what it means, but what I’m hopeful this thread will do, is help me to understand if this means that a person can pretty much do anything he/she pleases, and there are no eternal consequences? :confused: Now, perhaps, George Sodini, the shooter, is in purgatory…perhaps, heaven…afterall, God is merficul beyond measure. Only He can decide. And this man was very ill, mentally. But, that being said…how can the pastor from his church make such a statement, about ‘knowing’ that George is in heaven. It seems like some denominations don’t believe in hell, is that possible? Clearly, Jesus spoke of hell in the Bible.

So, is the OSAS doctrine, basically saying that if you believe Christ as your Savior, then you will never see hell? Does it mean that if someone doesn’t believe in Christ, that is the only way someone MIGHT go to hell?

Hoping for a better understanding of what this mean…thank you! :)***
 
I don’t have an answer for you. It seems, though, that most who believe in the OSAS idea and have responded on this board, think that you can tell who is and isn’t saved by how they act. They would say, contrary to the pastor’s opinion, that that man was never saved.

OSAS is an idea that can’t be supported.
 
Many Protestants, and more specifically Evangelicals, do believe in OSAS. When I was in Protestatland, I also believed that. But if that’s true, then we have no free will. If there is no free will, then God is not a God of love. God always gives us the ability to choose.

Every morning I wake up I have to recommit myself to Jesus Christ, as all of us do, just as I have to recommit myself to my husband and everyone and everything else that I love. OSAS gives people an easy out to do whatever they want to do. Aleister Crowley, who was a very evil man who lived in the first half of the 20th century and practiced demonism, wrote a book in which he said “Do what thou wilt, that is the whole of the law.” That belief was taken up by our culture in the 60’s, which said “Do your own thing.” That is completely antithetical to the law of God. Christ said, “He who seeks to save his life shall lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.” In order to be saved, we must deny ourselves. (BTW, Aleister Crowley is very much honored and almost worshipped by many rock musicians. Both the Beatles and Michael Jackson put him on album covers (St. Pepper and Dangerous), and Jimmy Page of Led Zeplin actually bought his house and lived in it.)

Believing that we can just say “I believe in God” gives us a free pass to heaven no matter how we live our lives is a belief that comes straight from Satan himself.

That said, we can never judge the fate of anyone. St. Faustina told us that Christ calls out to all at the moment of death, that God’s mercy is extended to us right up to and including the end of our lives. So it is very possible that this killer was saved at the end. We can only hope and pray for that. As Catholics, we definitely do believe in praying for the dead, because we are told that those in Purgatory cannot pray for themselves and that we on this earth have the ability to pray them into heaven. That is where the “communion of saints” comes in, because as we pray for them, when they get to heaven, they can pray for us.

Sorry if this post was windy. But I hope it explains the Catholic way of looking at death and salvation.

Mary
 
Brooklyn said:
Many Protestants, and more specifically Evangelicals, do believe in OSAS. When I was in Protestatland, I also believed that. But if that’s true, then we have no free will. If there is no free will, then God is not a God of love. God always gives us the ability to choose.

Every morning I wake up I have to recommit myself to Jesus Christ, as all of us do, just as I have to recommit myself to my husband and everyone and everything else that I love. OSAS gives people an easy out to do whatever they want to do. Aleister Crowley, who was a very evil man who lived in the first half of the 20th century and practiced demonism, wrote a book in which he said “Do what thou wilt, that is the whole of the law.” That belief was taken up by our culture in the 60’s, which said “Do your own thing.” That is completely antithetical to the law of God. Christ said, “He who seeks to save his life shall lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.” In order to be saved, we must deny ourselves. (BTW, Aleister Crowley is very much honored and almost worshipped by many rock musicians. Both the Beatles and Michael Jackson put him on album covers (St. Pepper and Dangerous), and Jimmy Page of Led Zeplin actually bought his house and lived in it.)

Believing that we can just say “I believe in God” gives us a free pass to heaven no matter how we live our lives is a belief that comes straight from Satan himself.

That said, we can never judge the fate of anyone. St. Faustina told us that Christ calls out to all at the moment of death, that God’s mercy is extended to us right up to and including the end of our lives. So it is very possible that this killer was saved at the end. We can only hope and pray for that. As Catholics, we definitely do believe in praying for the dead, because we are told that those in Purgatory cannot pray for themselves and that we on this earth have the ability to pray them into heaven. That is where the “communion of saints” comes in, because as we pray for them, when they get to heaven, they can pray for us.

Sorry if this post was windy. But I hope it explains the Catholic way of looking at death and salvation.

Mary
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*Gosh, what a wonderful explanation! Thank you. I mean, I understand the OSAS in principle, but not sure where people could actually believe it, if they just read the Bible, and see that that is not what Christ taught, really. Thanks for your post.

I’m sorry for posting another thread on this same topic–I just realized after I posted this, what another one exists. :o*
 
I do not know what OSAS is, but If this Pastor was a true Pastor, he would not have said “We do not pray for dead people.” Unless he has a different religion?

In the Roman Catholic Church, we pray for ALL people. We were taught that there is a Heaven, a hell and a Purgatory. And that we must pray for all the souls in Purgatory, so that they go to Heaven.

We must also pray that the non-believers or people with little faith are brought back to God. We are all God’s children and he does not want to lose any of us. That is my belief. I hope this helps.

Lmora
 
Lmora said:
I do not know what OSAS is, but If this Pastor was a true Pastor, he would not have said “We do not pray for dead people.” Unless he has a different religion?

Lmora
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OSAS - “Once Saved, Always Saved”
 
Underlying once saved always saved is a very different understanding of salvation. The Church teaches that Christ’s death on the cross took care, once and for all, of our justification. It opened the way, for all humans in all time, to eternal life. The next part of the process, with the way open, is sanctification. We are made fit for heaven, by grace, through the sacraments and actual grace. OSAS rather short-circuits this sanctification process.

The Church teaches that our souls are made entirely free from sin and its effects before we enter heaven. If we die without this freeing process being completed, it is completed in purgatory. But the OSAS scheme of things holds that the soul is not changed at all. Rather, the state of the soul is cloaked, or covered, by Christ’s merits. The scheme requires that the Father looks no further than this cloak, ignores the state of the soul beneath it, and on a sort of wink and nod basis, the soul enters heaven uncleaned.

Quite apart from the obvious problems with the concept of God playing make-believe with respect to the state of the soul, this scheme is necessary for the OASA proposition to hold up. By that proposition, the state of the soul doesn’t matter, because it is unseen, or at least, not investigated. So, accepting Jesus supposedly put on this cloak or covering, and then what’s underneath it doesn’t matter. No matter how much dirtier it gets after the cloaking, all that’s supposedly seen in the scheme is the cloak, and that doesn’t change. So, once saved (the cloak being put on), always saved.

St. Paul clearly didn’t buy this cloaking thing at all. Why else would this great Apostle and Saint have written about working out his salvation in fear and trembling? He had hopeful confidence, which came from the faith of the Church, but not false assurance, that OSAS leads to.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Gerry_Hunter said:
Underlying once saved always saved is a very different understanding of salvation. The Church teaches that Christ’s death on the cross took care, once and for all, of our justification. It opened the way, for all humans in all time, to eternal life. The next part of the process, with the way open, is sanctification. We are made fit for heaven, by grace, through the sacraments and actual grace. OSAS rather short-circuits this sanctification process.

The Church teaches that our souls are made entirely free from sin and its effects before we enter heaven. If we die without this freeing process being completed, it is completed in purgatory. But the OSAS scheme of things holds that the soul is not changed at all. Rather, the state of the soul is cloaked, or covered, by Christ’s merits. The scheme requires that the Father looks no further than this cloak, ignores the state of the soul beneath it, and on a sort of wink and nod basis, the soul enters heaven uncleaned.

Quite apart from the obvious problems with the concept of God playing make-believe with respect to the state of the soul, this scheme is necessary for the OASA proposition to hold up. By that proposition, the state of the soul doesn’t matter, because it is unseen, or at least, not investigated. So, accepting Jesus supposedly put on this cloak or covering, and then what’s underneath it doesn’t matter. No matter how much dirtier it gets after the cloaking, all that’s supposedly seen in the scheme is the cloak, and that doesn’t change. So, once saved (the cloak being put on), always saved.

St. Paul clearly didn’t buy this cloaking thing at all. Why else would this great Apostle and Saint have written about working out his salvation in fear and trembling? He had hopeful confidence, which came from the faith of the Church, but not false assurance, that OSAS leads to.

Blessings,

Gerry
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Excellent explanation, beautifully written. To believe that once saved always saved no matter the state of our souls is to say that, basically, sin doesn’t matter, and so therefore, why did Christ have to die? If all it takes is a covering up of our sins, instead of a purging of sins, there was no reason for Our Lord to die on the cross.

But God says, the wages of sin are death, and unless the sin is taken away, we will receive those wages. And anyway, I for one, don’t want to take my sins with me to heaven even if I could. I want to be as pure and sinless as our Blessed Mother. And I know, that ain’t going to come easy! 😉

Mary
 
Brooklyn said:
… And anyway, I for one, don’t want to take my sins with me to heaven even if I could. I want to be as pure and sinless as our Blessed Mother. And I know, that ain’t going to come easy! 😉

Mary
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I’m with you on that one.

Gerry
 
whatevergirl said:
***Last week, a 48 yr old man opened fire in a LA Fitness gym, in Pittsburgh, not too far from where my family and I moved from. He also then turned the gun on himself, taking his own life. In reading some of the news articles, it was mentioned that he belonged at one time to a non-denom church, where they taught that once a person is saved, he/she is always saved, and their salvation is never lost. He actually commented on that in his online blog/diary, leading up to the killings.

The interesting thing to note also, was that when questioned, the pastor of that church said…‘we don’t pray for dead people, only the living. [George] will be accountable before God, only God can judge him. But, we believe he is in heaven, because once a person is saved, they are always saved.’

I know what it means, but what I’m hopeful this thread will do, is help me to understand if this means that a person can pretty much do anything he/she pleases, and there are no eternal consequences? :confused: Now, perhaps, George Sodini, the shooter, is in purgatory…perhaps, heaven…afterall, God is merficul beyond measure. Only He can decide. And this man was very ill, mentally. But, that being said…how can the pastor from his church make such a statement, about ‘knowing’ that George is in heaven. It seems like some denominations don’t believe in hell, is that possible? Clearly, Jesus spoke of hell in the Bible.

So, is the OSAS doctrine, basically saying that if you believe Christ as your Savior, then you will never see hell? Does it mean that if someone doesn’t believe in Christ, that is the only way someone MIGHT go to hell?

Hoping for a better understanding of what this mean…thank you! :)***
Click to expand...
Hi whatevergirl,

Yes, the OSAS doctrine is basically saying that if you believe Christ as your Savior, then you will never see hell and it does indeed mean that if someone doesn’t believe in Christ, that is the only way someone MIGHT go to hell.

Consider, if you will, somebody that is an OSAS adherent and who continually manifests in his or her life these characteristics: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self–control. I hasten to add that I’ve never met any such person in any of the parts of Christendom into which I’ve ventured but I’d sure like to.🙂 However, if one assumes that this composite model of perfection actually exists in real life then it’s also reasonable to assume that nobody would have any reason to question that person’s belief in OSAS. Indeed, people might be more open to the idea that OSAS isn’t such a bad thing since it apparently produces such godliness. So, really, the objection to OSAS you’re adducing is to ask how people can believe in this doctrine when somebody who believes it comes along and commits a sin that seems to cry out to heaven for vengeance. Then when other OSAS adherents such as the sinner’s pastor insist upon holding to that same belief their stance is met with surprise as if they shouldn’t believe in it any more.

If a non–Catholic were to use this approach to question Catholic doctrine e.g. a corrupt pope proves that papal supremacy is a false doctrine – I think it likely that the non–Catholic could reasonably expect a certain amount of dissension from Catholics and would doubtless be briskly informed that his or her assertion was wayward and illogical.

The notion that the doctrine of OSAS, sometimes called the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints, is a license to sin is an interpretation forced upon it by outsiders. The doctrine is probably difficult to appreciate from a Catholic point of view since Catholics believe that salvation is a process. But if one presupposes that salvation is an event rather than a process then perhaps the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints makes more sense?

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
Chapters 17-18 of the Presbyterian Westminster Confession of Faith might shed some light on Perseverance of the Saints.

CHAPTER 17
Of the Perseverance of the Saints
  1. They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.
  2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
  3. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.
CHAPTER 18
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation
  1. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation (which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.
  2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God, which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.
  3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
  4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God’s withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light:** yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived**; and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.
 
Biblical verses that define “Once saved, always saved”:

(Philippians 1:5,6)
5 “For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;”
6 “Being confident of this very thing, that He (God) which hath begun a good work in you will perform (it) until the day of Jesus Christ:”

Note: Only a born-again true believer could be described as having “fellowship in the gospel”.
Verse 6 tells us to be confident in the fact that God, Himself, does the good work of saving us and it continues with the promise that God will perform (finish) that work until the day of Jesus Christ. Salvation is God’s work and the resulting good works we do as a saved believer are only the evidence of God’s indwelling Spirit working out that salvation in us. James defines this as faith with works as evidence to prove that we have a true faith. Our own works never save us in any way though, as Romans clearly points out.
If you believe that even the smallest part of your own works will help to save you, then you deny Christ’s Perfect work of Redemption and you are thereby unsaved because that false gospel.
 
SSTeacher said:
Hi whatevergirl,

Yes, the OSAS doctrine is basically saying that if you believe Christ as your Savior, then you will never see hell and it does indeed mean that if someone doesn’t believe in Christ, that is the only way someone MIGHT go to hell.

Consider, if you will, somebody that is an OSAS adherent and who continually manifests in his or her life these characteristics: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self–control. I hasten to add that I’ve never met any such person in any of the parts of Christendom into which I’ve ventured but I’d sure like to.🙂 However, if one assumes that this composite model of perfection actually exists in real life then it’s also reasonable to assume that nobody would have any reason to question that person’s belief in OSAS. Indeed, people might be more open to the idea that OSAS isn’t such a bad thing since it apparently produces such godliness. So, really, the objection to OSAS you’re adducing is to ask how people can believe in this doctrine when somebody who believes it comes along and commits a sin that seems to cry out to heaven for vengeance. Then when other OSAS adherents such as the sinner’s pastor insist upon holding to that same belief their stance is met with surprise as if they shouldn’t believe in it any more.

If a non–Catholic were to use this approach to question Catholic doctrine e.g. a corrupt pope proves that papal supremacy is a false doctrine – I think it likely that the non–Catholic could reasonably expect a certain amount of dissension from Catholics and would doubtless be briskly informed that his or her assertion was wayward and illogical.

The notion that the doctrine of OSAS, sometimes called the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints, is a license to sin is an interpretation forced upon it by outsiders. The doctrine is probably difficult to appreciate from a Catholic point of view since Catholics believe that salvation is a process. But if one presupposes that salvation is an event rather than a process then perhaps the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints makes more sense?

Cordially,
Mick
👍
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Mick,

Never could understand OSAS, but your explanation was good. Thanks.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, I pray that we all be one.
 
whatevergirl said:
The interesting thing to note also, was that when questioned, the pastor of that church said…‘we don’t pray for dead people, only the living. [George] will be accountable before God, only God can judge him. But, we believe he is in heaven, because once a person is saved, they are always saved.’***
Click to expand...
I went to a Baptist Church once where someone wanted to pray for their family because a nephew was being taken off life-support the next day. All the prayers were for the family members in their grief which is fine but afterward I asked why we hadn’t prayed for the boy himself, for his soul, and was met with a strange look - ‘because we don’t know if he’s a Christian’ was the reply - in my mind, all the more reason to pray for him!!
 
SSTeacher said:
Hi whatevergirl,

Yes, the OSAS doctrine is basically saying that if you believe Christ as your Savior, then you will never see hell and it does indeed mean that if someone doesn’t believe in Christ, that is the only way someone MIGHT go to hell.

Consider, if you will, somebody that is an OSAS adherent and who continually manifests in his or her life these characteristics: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self–control. I hasten to add that I’ve never met any such person in any of the parts of Christendom into which I’ve ventured but I’d sure like to.🙂 However, if one assumes that this composite model of perfection actually exists in real life then it’s also reasonable to assume that nobody would have any reason to question that person’s belief in OSAS. Indeed, people might be more open to the idea that OSAS isn’t such a bad thing since it apparently produces such godliness. So, really, the objection to OSAS you’re adducing is to ask how people can believe in this doctrine when somebody who believes it comes along and commits a sin that seems to cry out to heaven for vengeance. Then when other OSAS adherents such as the sinner’s pastor insist upon holding to that same belief their stance is met with surprise as if they shouldn’t believe in it any more.

If a non–Catholic were to use this approach to question Catholic doctrine e.g. a corrupt pope proves that papal supremacy is a false doctrine – I think it likely that the non–Catholic could reasonably expect a certain amount of dissension from Catholics and would doubtless be briskly informed that his or her assertion was wayward and illogical.

The notion that the doctrine of OSAS, sometimes called the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints, is a license to sin is an interpretation forced upon it by outsiders. The doctrine is probably difficult to appreciate from a Catholic point of view since Catholics believe that salvation is a process. But if one presupposes that salvation is an event rather than a process then perhaps the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints makes more sense?

Cordially,
Mick
👍
Click to expand...
Papal “supremacy” (by that I think you mean that the pope is the head of Christ’s church on earth), doesn’t depend on a pope’s perfection. That’s not part of the teaching.

We know that nothing “unclean” can enter heaven, yet those who believe in OSAS say that someone who commits murder and doesn’t confess the sin will “go to” heaven. Some people who believe in OSAS (the pastor) are saying that once someone is saved, all future sins are “covered”, so that no matter what they do, no matter how evil, no matter that they aren’t repentant for it, they will “go to” heaven.
 
I have gone over and over this subject with my protestant friends and family for yrs :shrug:and it just never made any sense to me at all. My husband a Southern Baptist is adamant about it. That all someone has to do is accecpt Christ as his Saviour and from that day on he is Heaven Bound!

When I question about if this person “backslides” (IE murders someone) and before he asks for forgivness he dies where does he go, Heaven or Hell… I am told that he still goes to Heaven all because he at one time accepted Christ… :confused: :nope:

:tsktsk:Sounds like wishful thinking to me.
 
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