Once saved, always saved--please help me understand this

[kalt]

No, it doesn’t. People who presuppose that it’s a wayward doctrine infer that notion. They then simply report the conclusion that they’d already reached and include the term “OSAS” somewhere in the sentence.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

And I will ask again, then, What of the OSAS murderer who dies unrepentant?

No one seems able to answer this question.

 

[kalt]

"Revelation 21:27 does support your line of thinking. Let’s consider the full verse.

Quote:
…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
The first part of the verse supports your idea but the latter part contains a qualifier that suggests support for the doctrine of OSAS."

The 2nd line supports the OSAS view only if it ignores he first quoted line. Obviously, if nothing unlcean can enter Heaven (and those who commit atrocities), the names of those who are unlcean and commit atrocities aren’t included in the book. The 2nd line supports the first–that nothing unclean will enter Heaven. This isn’t a qualifier but a restating of the first concept.

I’m surprised that anyone could read it so that it means that some people can be unclean and commit atrocities and still enter Heaven.

Some here who believe in OSAS have said that it means that all sins (past and future) are “covered” (their word). I’m not coming up with ideas on my own–I’m repeating what OSAS believers have said here. I’m still asking about it, because it can’t possibily be that the theologians in other Christian churches have actually taught this nonsense. It must be how the people in the pews are misunderstanding it.

 

[kalt]

Indeed. I adduced a skewed example so as to emphasize my point.

I’m not sure that’s accurate.

Revelation 21:27 does support your line of thinking. Let’s consider the full verse.

The first part of the verse supports your idea but the latter part contains a qualifier that suggests support for the doctrine of OSAS.

That sounds presumptuous and even blasphemous. Such a depiction of OSAS adherents gives them no credit whatsoever and I think fair–minded observers might agree with me that at least a little credit is due. Please allow me to portray the doctrine embracing a positive presupposition i.e. that an OSAS adherent is not a feeble–minded, selfish yo–yo with a complete disregard for kingdom values but is a sincere believer that possesses an inner determination to live a life pleasing to God as a result of, and commensurate with, his or her ongoing salvation experience.

Let’s consider the event of salvation. It will vary from person to person but the point is that it is believed to have been a real event. Authentic Evangelicals are able to exchange notes about how and when they were saved. This is really the most important point to digest since it involves not only a discussion about doctrine but also an experience of doctrine. The latter is, of course, much more vivid. All one has to do is allow that the event of salvation is real to the Evangelical who declares that the event changed his or her life. That ought not to be particularly difficult since it’s nigh on impossible to argue that somebody hasn’t had a spiritual or religious experience if they say that they have. Anyway, it’s a fairly familiar concept. There are plenty of events that can cause lives to change for the better – graduating, getting married, changing jobs, having children, getting promoted, relocating, winning the lottery – anyone who made a sustained effort could probably compile a surprisingly lengthy list.

However, all the instances on such a list would be seen as good because they connected with the pursuit of happiness and material well–being. But the event of salvation involves a life–change in the spiritual realm – it means that one’s spiritual outlook is completely changed. I would suggest that it can correctly be described as a deep and abiding desire to fulfill one’s destiny by loving the Lord our God with all one’s heart and with all one’s soul and with all one’s mind and with all one’s strength. If this is understood then confusion about the doctrine is perhaps more easily overcome. For the authentic Evangelical the event of his or her salvation is a very real thing. And when Evangelicals exchange notes it becomes evident to them that each person’s event is different. It may have come quickly, as in a sudden realization. Or it may have been a gradual thought sequence lasting months or even years. God works in whatever mysterious way He pleases. But for every Evangelical there will come a time when he or she can look back on the event of his or her salvation and know that it is finalized because the things of the world have become strangely dim and the things of God are vivid and attractive whereupon the belief that one is saved is embraced with one’s whole heart and with all one’s soul and with all one’s mind and with all one’s strength. The Evangelical would then conclude that he or she was truly a child of God and as is natural for a child would reach up. And God would respond by taking the child’s hand and the child would be assured – would know – that God would never let go.

The question the outsider would probably pose at this point would be to say, “That’s all very well but if you’re saved you don’t have to actually do anything, do you?”

Well, anybody who has been able to come alongside the mindset that I’ve been trying to convey will perhaps acknowledge that this comment now actually sounds like one that would be uttered by a very worldly, cold–hearted pragmatist. That’s certainly how it sounds to an Evangelical who is now focused upon what God’s will is for him or her. This would probably be the very last thought that would ever come to visit an Evangelical who is saved. That Evangelical now knows – just as intensely as he or she knows that he or she is saved – there is hard work ahead. This is the work of salvation – not for salvation, mind you. After the event of salvation it is the pleasant duty for each Evangelical to discover the works that God has prepared in advance for him or her to do. In doing this, that Evangelical’s life will continue to change and he or she will slowly reveal more of the fruit of Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self– control. There is no question of declining that duty. Like Luther, the Evangelical who is saved, “can do no other.”

So, finally, we come to the hypothetical question of what happens when a person who is saved and who is an adherent of OSAS commits an awful crime and sins greatly? Well, a person who is saved hates sin because God hates sin but whether we’re OSAS adherents or otherwise we’re all in the same position as Saint Paul who wrote the following in his letter to the Romans.

There is now no condemnation of those who are in Christ Jesus – no condemnation for those who are saved.

Does this make sense?

Cordially,
Mick

Can it be said that someone who is an unrepentant murderer is “in Christ Jesus”. Of course not.

We’ve already discovered that nothing that in unclean and no one who has commited an atrocity (and is unrepentant) will enter Heaven, that only those whose names are in the book will enter Heaven, and that one line doesn’t negate the other, but supports it.

So again I will ask, What of the unrepentant murderer who is OSAS?

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5563514:

No, it doesn’t. People who presuppose that it’s a wayward doctrine infer

that notion. They then simply report the conclusion that they’d already reached and include the term “OSAS” somewhere in the sentence.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:And I will ask again, then, What of the OSAS murderer who dies unrepentant?

No one seems able to answer this question.

Of course nobody is answering it. It’s a non–question. One might as well ask, “Could God make a weight so heavy that He couldn’t lift it up?” or “Could God make a four–sided triangle?” There is no such thing as an OSAS murderer who dies unrepentant. There never has been and there never will be. But you know this, don’t you?

Can it be said that someone who is an unrepentant murderer is “in Christ Jesus”. Of course not.

And yet despite what you know to be true you continue to propose what you know to be false and when nobody responds to your hypothetical impossibility you then suggest that the silence signifies the doctrine is nonsense. I guess this sort of thing can be fun – you’ve told me yourself on another thread that people like to play games on the Internet – but this time I feel it’s worthwhile taking the question seriously because the Original Poster has asked her question in connection with a real person and a real situation and she’s trying to line up the answer in reality. She clearly does not intend to argue just for the sake of it in the hope that OSAS adherents will end up looking stupid and ignorant. She really does want to understand where OSAS adherents are coming from. That is so refreshing.

Because she is obviously genuine in her inquiry she is eventually going to realize that she is at the moment unconsciously superimposing her Catholic presuppositions and assumptions upon the question and once she realizes that she’ll quickly get to the answer and make it her own. She won’t call the doctrine nonsense or laugh at it. She’ll realize that within its parameters it is a perfectly sustainable position. From there she will go on to have meaningful dialogues with OSAS adherents. And at no time will she ever have to compromise her Catholic faith.

I really do want to help her to increase her understanding because she is one of the most influential Catholics on this forum. At the time of writing her CAF home page has well over six and half thousand hits, her CAF wall contains hundreds of messages, she is connected to dozens of CAF friends and she has started three CAF groups. Her posts are always charitable, she’s smart, she has an inquiring mind, and she is a committed Catholic. And when she does eventually get it she’ll respond to the question you’re asking by gently and courteously urging you to name the real person who has died unrepentant, describe all the actual circumstances and point to all the available evidence so she can help you to understand. And as you slowly defer to an impression of a guppy fish at feeding time you’ll then maybe get it, too.

I’ve enjoyed participating in this thread but I can’t add to what I’ve already put forward so I guess we will once more have to agree to disagree if that’s OK with you. I’m not going to make any more posts until whatevergirl returns with her verdict. There is more than enough here to enable her to come to an informed decision.

May God bless you always.

Sincerely,
Mick

 

[whatevergirl]

***Mick, I don’t know what to say. You are too kind, sir. Honestly, I feel bathed in kindness today. What a blessing this CAF forum really is.

kalt–can an unrepentant sinner, who believes in the OSAS doctrine, reach heaven? When I meet people who believe in OSAS, or I read articles like the one about the shooter who believed this…I sometimes wonder if there are categories to the whole idea.

First, a person COULD believe that OSAS, means…"Jesus died for my sins, there is nothing MORE I need to do, to reach heaven.’’ The problem with that thinking, is that not only does it seem to give us a license to sin, but moreover, it seems to leave out what Jesus’ death was TRULY about. It wasn’t about giving us a free pass into heaven. It was about giving us the HOPE of eternal life. THE HOPE. That being said, Christ expects something from us, and that something is to be a followed of Him. “Take up your cross and follow Me.” ANYONE reading the Bible, reads this at some point. It means that to be a true follower of Christ, it doesn’t mean we won’t sin…but it does mean, we must STRIVE to follow Christ. Take up your cross. God knows we all have crosses, they might be out of our control, or might be self induced sins that we have gotten ourselves into. Either way, they serve as obstacles that keep us from Christ, if we do not surrender them to Christ.

So, if a murderer is unrepentant, just from a human standpoint, I wouldn’t imagine that person will find heaven, IF the person isn’t mentally ill, etc. God is all merciful, and He knows our hearts better than we do…completely not for us to call who goes to heaven, but we can make some educated guesses, I suppose.

Second, the other category of OSAS, could be that someone feels OSAS means that Jesus died, and no other sacrifice is necessary to give us the HOPE of eternal life. This, I believe as a devout Catholic. There is nothing WE CAN do, to gain the hope of salvation. Before Christ’s death, I often wonder what a confusing time the Jews must have had, (and of course pagans) in thinking of the afterlife. Sacrificing lambs and whatever…that sounds so temporal…how could they ever KNOW they would be saved? I think about that a lot. I have many Jewish friends and I respect their views, but I still wonder…what do they think about eternal life, if their ‘method’ of attonement doesn’t involve Christ? But, that is a topic for another time.

But, as a Catholic, truly…there is nothing you nor I can do to gain the hope of heaven. What a marvelous act Jesus did for us…to die for us, so we can now have hope. But, with that hope, Jesus asks for us to become servants to God and others. He leaves us many teachings…but the two most important were…Love God with all of our hearts, minds and souls…AND to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. I think that OSAS means to me, that we cannot lose the HOPE of eternal life…it’s through God’s grace that that is there for us. We CAN lose salvation, however. In ways, we can’t speculate as mere humans, but we can take some hunches (unrepentant sin, etc) Jesus told His followers, that the gate to heaven is narrow…because He knew many would reject Him.

To be a follower of OSAS, and say the person isn’t Catholic–would be entirely acceptable to Catholics and non Catholics alike, if the person takes the stance of my second category. I have heard non Catholic preachers talk about "there is nothing you can do to lose salvation.’’ I am always tempted to call in and ask…"do you mean lose the HOPE of salvation, or anyone goes to heaven because of Jesus’ sacrifice?’’

Maybe someday I will.

More later…I dohave a job that I need to get back to! Yikes! ***

 

[whatevergirl]

"Revelation 21:27 does support your line of thinking. Let’s consider the full verse.

Quote:
…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
The first part of the verse supports your idea but the latter part contains a qualifier that suggests support for the doctrine of OSAS."

The 2nd line supports the OSAS view only if it ignores he first quoted line. Obviously, if nothing unlcean can enter Heaven (and those who commit atrocities), the names of those who are unlcean and commit atrocities aren’t included in the book. The 2nd line supports the first–that nothing unclean will enter Heaven. This isn’t a qualifier but a restating of the first concept.

I’m surprised that anyone could read it so that it means that some people can be unclean and commit atrocities and still enter Heaven.

Some here who believe in OSAS have said that it means that all sins (past and future) are “covered” (their word). I’m not coming up with ideas on my own–I’m repeating what OSAS believers have said here. I’m still asking about it, because it can’t possibily be that the theologians in other Christian churches have actually taught this nonsense. It must be how the people in the pews are misunderstanding it.

I have heard that also, and as Catholics, our sins are ‘covered’ with Jesus’ blood, one time. Jesus’ sacrifice was what was needed to reconcile God with mankind, and give mankind the HOPE of salvation. I always tend to come into a snippit of what a Protestant preacher is saying on a radio program, for example–and never hear the beginnings of the talk or what. Can this person actually think that we are not responsible for our actions? Are we responsible for our eternal destiny? To a degree, yes…I think that if we willingly reject Christ, it will lead us down a dark path…But, we are not responsible for the ultimate cleansing of mankinds’ sins. We are not responsible for salvation BEING POSSIBLE. That is where perhaps the rub is…do Protestants who preach OSAS, believe that salvation is always possible, or do they mean, we are saved no matter what we do?

Jesus’ death on the cross, the ULTIMATE sacrifice is enough. As humans, we cannot earn heaven. As much as might misunderstand OSAS, non Catholics often believe that Catholics believe our ‘good works’ will get us a place in heaven. No, we don’t believe that. FOR THE RECORD! We do believe however, that faith without works IS dead. If you say you love Christ, your life SHOULD reflect that. If you say you love Christ, but are bitter, angry, murder people, steal, lie…cheat…etc…your words are dead. They are meaningless, dare I say. If I tell my husband I love him madly, but cheat on him–are my words meaningless? He would think so.

So, I think we’re getting closer to making sense of things here…MICK–are we to you? *

 

[CWBetts]

Before I converted, at one time I was a Fundamental Independent Baptist. The congregations I was a member of very much bought into the OSAS heresy. Part of this belief hinges on the misinerpretation of Romans 8:38-39(NRSV-CE):

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to seperate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This can only be used to justify OSAS if you are willing to accept that God does not love those who are not saved. This passage is about seperation of the love of God, not communion with God.

There a re lots of other passages in the Scriptures that under OSAS are, at best, problematic:

1. The Parable of the Progidal Son. When the younger son left his Father’s house, and lived among the heathen, was he still in his fathers household? The Progidal himself didn’t think so. He was in the household (“saved”) and then out of the houshold (“lost”), and then back in the household again by his willful return and submission.
2. The Parable of the Sower. How can one recieve the word, and than whither away?
3. St. Paul tells us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” what is to fear if we cannot lose our salvation?
4. According to Revealtion, nothing impure can enter heaven. So if we say the “sinners prayer” and continue in sin, we still go to heaven? What about that purity thing?
5. Why in the world is St. Paul so concerned about sin, if there is no danger to our souls?

OSAS is utterly rediculous.

 

[SSTeacher]

So, I think we’re getting closer to making sense of things here…MICK–are we to you?

Yes, you are.

Here’s another very recent Catholic interpolation.

OSAS is utterly rediculous.

Such final judgments make dialogue at least very difficult if not impossible.

Well, I’ll leave you to consider and reflect upon the content of this thread. I’ve laid out the case as best I can and now I must let it rest. I’d like to make it clear that I am not a believer in OSAS and never have been. I converted to Evangelical Christianity nine years ago at which time my worldview hovered somewhere between agnosticism and deism and during my time in the Evangelical world I always aligned myself with the Arminan view. But I have looked cautiously and carefully at Calvinism and within the parameters of Evangelical Christianity I think it is the most logical stance and that it has the most biblical support. I do not consider it to be stupid or ridiculous or anything to be laughed at, as do some Catholics here, and I feel prompted to suggest that such gratuitously angry attitudes when publicly manifested do little to aid Christian Unity.

But I’m glad to be able to say that there are other Catholics who engender a very different spirit into the proceedings and that you are one of them. You are a credit to your faith and the Lord you serve.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[CWBetts]

Yes, you are.

Here’s another very recent Catholic interpolation.

Such final judgments make dialogue at least very difficult if not impossible.

Well, I’ll leave you to consider and reflect upon the content of this thread. I’ve laid out the case as best I can and now I must let it rest. I’d like to make it clear that I am not a believer in OSAS and never have been. I converted to Evangelical Christianity nine years ago at which time my worldview hovered somewhere between agnosticism and deism and during my time in the Evangelical world I always aligned myself with the Arminan view. But I have looked cautiously and carefully at Calvinism and within the parameters of Evangelical Christianity I think it is the most logical stance and that it has the most biblical support. I do not consider it to be stupid or ridiculous or anything to be laughed at, as do some Catholics here, and I feel prompted to suggest that such gratuitously angry attitudes when publicly manifested do little to aid Christian Unity.

But I’m glad to be able to say that there are other Catholics who engender a very different spirit into the proceedings and that you are one of them. You are a credit to your faith and the Lord you serve.

Respectfully,
Mick

Thank you oh so much for quoting one line of my post, while ignoring the meat of it! Saying “why can’t we all just get along, you believe what you want and’ll believe what I want” is not ecumenism. We must stand for the Truth, of which OSAS has no part.

 

[whatevergirl]

*haha CW – I shouldn’t be laughing…but it’s funny, when these conversations get rolling, and we respond to snippits.

OSAS **is ridiculous IF **one believes that their actions here on earth, have no bearing on what happens in eternity to them. That is what I think. OSAS could mean that a person takes Jesus’ sacrifice to mean that His death and resurrection gives us ALL the hope of eternal life. Again–hope, not a guarantee. If that is what a person thinks OSAS means, then that’s in line with our faith. But, if someone thinks (like possibly the gym shooter thought,not 100% sure if he thought like this) that OSAS means…I’m forgiven, no matter what I do, because Jesus died for me (so I’ll just take it all for granted) that would be not only unwise, but downright dangerous.

I found it so utterly sad, that the shooter was noted as writing in his blog…I will be seeing Jesus soon, I wonder what that will be like. I hope to be in heaven soon, and on and on. What struck me as so sad, was that he was going to commit suicide (a sin, but one can be less culpable with certain circumstances, insanity being one, maybe?) and I thought to myself…when would he have time to say…Jesus, I’m so sorry for what I have done here! I want to cry thinking about that. Very few times if ever do we get a glimpse into someone’s head in a diary of thoughts that lead UP TO a crime. His thoughts were chilling, but make me weep for him, and if he is in heaven…so be it. God’s mercy is sublime, really. Can we ever begin to question the mind of God?

Which leads to another question…let’s say Jesus did NOT die on the cross…would any of have HOPE of everlasting life? How about people who lived long before Jesus’ preachings? I have often confused myself on that one.

Anyone have some insight into that?*

 

[brkn1]

*I have heard that also, and as Catholics, our sins are ‘covered’ with Jesus’ blood, one time. Jesus’ sacrifice was what was needed to reconcile God with mankind, and give mankind the HOPE of salvation. I always tend to come into a snippit of what a Protestant preacher is saying on a radio program, for example–and never hear the beginnings of the talk or what. Can this person actually think that we are not responsible for our actions? Are we responsible for our eternal destiny? To a degree, yes…I think that if we willingly reject Christ, it will lead us down a dark path…But, we are not responsible for the ultimate cleansing of mankinds’ sins. We are not responsible for salvation BEING POSSIBLE. That is where perhaps the rub is…do Protestants who preach OSAS, believe that salvation is always possible, or do they mean, we are saved no matter what we do? *

*Jesus’ death on the cross, the ULTIMATE sacrifice is enough. As humans, we cannot earn heaven. As much as might misunderstand OSAS, non Catholics often believe that Catholics believe our ‘good works’ will get us a place in heaven. No, we don’t believe that. FOR THE RECORD! We do believe however, that faith without works IS dead. If you say you love Christ, your life SHOULD reflect that. If you say you love Christ, but are bitter, angry, murder people, steal, lie…cheat…etc…your words are dead. They are meaningless, dare I say. If I tell my husband I love him madly, but cheat on him–are my words meaningless? He would think so. *

So, I think we’re getting closer to making sense of things here…MICK–are we to you?

Christ’s One Sacrifice paid the full penalty for those who believe and accept what Christ did for them. Christ acted as our High Priest, when He offered Himself as a Perfect Sacrifice for all believer’s sins. Christ redeemed us (paid for all of our sins) by His one Sacrificial Offering as our Substitute on the Cross. God the Father accepted Christ’s Perfect Life and Redeeming Suffering and Death on the Cross for us, as we know by Jesus’ ressurection from the dead afterwards. Only those given by the Holy Spirit to accept and believe in what Christ did to redeem them are reconciled to God. The rest of mankind is not reconciled, unless or until they are also enabled by the Holy Spirit to believe in and come to Christ for the free gift of Salvation.
The hope of all those who become truly born again (saved by Christ) is described by Paul as a “sure hope”. A sure hope is not to be confused with the idea of just a hope.
God’s Word is sure as are His promises. A sure hope promised by God is as good as done, although one must wait for that sure hope to come to full fruition.

 

[whatevergirl]

Christ’s One Sacrifice paid the full penalty for those who believe and accept what Christ did for them. Christ acted as our High Priest, when He offered Himself as a Perfect Sacrifice for all believer’s sins. Christ redeemed us (paid for all of our sins) by His one Sacrificial Offering as our Substitute on the Cross. God the Father accepted Christ’s Perfect Life and Redeeming Suffering and Death on the Cross for us, as we know by Jesus’ ressurection from the dead afterwards. Only those given by the Holy Spirit to accept and believe in what Christ did to redeem them are reconciled to God. The rest of mankind is not reconciled, unless or until they are also enabled by the Holy Spirit to believe in and come to Christ for the free gift of Salvation.
The hope of all those who become truly born again (saved by Christ) is described by Paul as a “sure hope”. A sure hope is not to be confused with the idea of just a hope.
God’s Word is sure as are His promises. A sure hope promised by God is as good as done, although one must wait for that sure hope to come to full fruition.

*This is an interesting post…thank you.

Question–so this ‘sure hope,’ is a hope that we can be certain of, because we are followers of Christ, or because of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for mankind? The latter, is more of the OSAS thinking, I think? Jesus’ sacrifice was what was needed for the hope of salvation, but what if people don’t follow Christ? (willingly)*

 

[CWBetts]

Christ’s One Sacrifice paid the full penalty for those who believe and accept what Christ did for them. Christ acted as our High Priest, when He offered Himself as a Perfect Sacrifice for all believer’s sins. Christ redeemed us (paid for all of our sins) by His one Sacrificial Offering as our Substitute on the Cross. God the Father accepted Christ’s Perfect Life and Redeeming Suffering and Death on the Cross for us, as we know by Jesus’ ressurection from the dead afterwards. Only those given by the Holy Spirit to accept and believe in what Christ did to redeem them are reconciled to God. The rest of mankind is not reconciled, unless or until they are also enabled by the Holy Spirit to believe in and come to Christ for the free gift of Salvation.
The hope of all those who become truly born again (saved by Christ) is described by Paul as a “sure hope”. A sure hope is not to be confused with the idea of just a hope.
God’s Word is sure as are His promises. A sure hope promised by God is as good as done, although one must wait for that sure hope to come to full fruition.

I think we have a different understanding on “free gift” Is salvation free? Yes. Does that mena that there are no responsiblities attatched? No. I do believe that Jesus said “Your faith has saved you. Go and sin no more.” I do not believe he ever said “Your faith has saved you. Continue on as you were.” In other weords, we can misuse the gift, and we can misuse the gift in such a way that we no longer have access to it without repentance and returning to a godly life. As I mentioned before, if salvation is indelible, what did St. Paul mean when he said to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”?

 

[whatevergirl]

CW! I love how you just explained that…I know that, but sometimes don’t manage to articulate it well. Thank you, I’m stealing that if you don’t mind.

 

[CWBetts]

CW! I love how you just explained that…I know that, but sometimes don’t manage to articulate it well. Thank you, I’m stealing that if you don’t mind.

That was a patchwork of what I have heard from Mother Angelica, RCIA, and other sources. The great thing about being Catholic is we can plagiarize and call it Traition!

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Christ’s One Sacrifice paid the full penalty for those who believe and accept what Christ did for them. Christ acted as our High Priest, when He offered Himself as a Perfect Sacrifice for all believer’s sins. Christ redeemed us (paid for all of our sins) by His one Sacrificial Offering as our Substitute on the Cross. God the Father accepted Christ’s Perfect Life and Redeeming Suffering and Death on the Cross for us, as we know by Jesus’ ressurection from the dead afterwards. Only those given by the Holy Spirit to accept and believe in what Christ did to redeem them are reconciled to God. The rest of mankind is not reconciled, unless or until they are also enabled by the Holy Spirit to believe in and come to Christ for the free gift of Salvation.
The hope of all those who become truly born again (saved by Christ) is described by Paul as a “sure hope”. A sure hope is not to be confused with the idea of just a hope.
God’s Word is sure as are His promises. A sure hope promised by God is as good as done, although one must wait for that sure hope to come to full fruition.

Just for the record, this is very much a Protestant rendering of Christ’s work, and is not at all consonant with the teaching of the Church.

The atonement of Christ is substitutionary in that it would have been impossible for a mere human to make the atonement. Only Jesus Christ, true God and true man, could do so.

The limitation of the effects of Christ’s work to only those who know of him is not at all consistent with the constant teaching of the Church from Christ’s time to the present. It is the limited (sometimes termed particular) atonement that is associated with the five points of Calvinism (TULIP is the acronym), and is utterly at variance with Catholic teaching. The Church has always taught that Christ’s work benefited every human being, and that the grace needed for salvation was withheld from no one (though not everyone avails himself of it).

FInally, I am reminded of the scene at the end of the Mikado, where the Lord High Executioner tries to explain why he hadn’t cut off Nanki Poo’s head, even though ordered to do so. He said there was no need to, because when the Mikado said someone was to be executed, then he really was as good as dead, so there was no point in cutting off his head. “A sure hope promised by God is as good as done” follows the same kind of logical process. The Apostle Paul would not have spoken of “sure hope” had he meant “certainty,” and would not have deceived the Church by speaking of working out salvation in fear and trembling in the face of a divine certainty. There can be no greater hope than a hope based on the promise of God, but it remains a hope. St. Paul, an Apostle, made that manifest in his teaching.

OSAS Protestants claim to have it made. Catholics know they have every reason for hopeful confidence, but they are not out of the woods yet.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[whatevergirl]

*Gerry, that is excellent, thank you.

I agree…‘sure hope’ doesn’t equate to guarantee.*

 

[emma411]

Many Protestants, and more specifically Evangelicals, do believe in OSAS. When I was in Protestatland, I also believed that. But if that’s true, then we have no free will. If there is no free will, then God is not a God of love. God always gives us the ability to choose.

Every morning I wake up I have to recommit myself to Jesus Christ, as all of us do, just as I have to recommit myself to my husband and everyone and everything else that I love. OSAS gives people an easy out to do whatever they want to do. Aleister Crowley, who was a very evil man who lived in the first half of the 20th century and practiced demonism, wrote a book in which he said “Do what thou wilt, that is the whole of the law.” That belief was taken up by our culture in the 60’s, which said “Do your own thing.” That is completely antithetical to the law of God. Christ said, “He who seeks to save his life shall lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.” In order to be saved, we must deny ourselves. (BTW, Aleister Crowley is very much honored and almost worshipped by many rock musicians. Both the Beatles and Michael Jackson put him on album covers (St. Pepper and Dangerous), and Jimmy Page of Led Zeplin actually bought his house and lived in it.)

Believing that we can just say “I believe in God” gives us a free pass to heaven no matter how we live our lives is a belief that comes straight from Satan himself.

That said, we can never judge the fate of anyone. St. Faustina told us that Christ calls out to all at the moment of death, that God’s mercy is extended to us right up to and including the end of our lives. So it is very possible that this killer was saved at the end. We can only hope and pray for that. As Catholics, we definitely do believe in praying for the dead, because we are told that those in Purgatory cannot pray for themselves and that we on this earth have the ability to pray them into heaven. That is where the “communion of saints” comes in, because as we pray for them, when they get to heaven, they can pray for us.

Sorry if this post was windy. But I hope it explains the Catholic way of looking at death and salvation.

Mary

What a beautiful explanation. I have wondered about those who know that they are saved. I heard a long time ago, which cleared the air for me was : we don’t ever know that we are saved until Jesus comes or we die. So for those who feel so sure that they are saved, makes me wonder some times about them. I am a catholic and still a sinner, but always try my best to amend my life. So those who are saved, just like it was said, that they feel lilke they can get away with anything? Doesn’t make sense to me. But yes we should continue to pray for those who are lost or have little faith.

Emma

 

[kalt]

Of course nobody is answering it. It’s a non–question. One might as well ask, “Could God make a weight so heavy that He couldn’t lift it up?” or “Could God make a four–sided triangle?” There is no such thing as an OSAS murderer who dies unrepentant. There never has been and there never will be. But you know this, don’t you?

And yet despite what you know to be true you continue to propose what you know to be false and when nobody responds to your hypothetical impossibility you then suggest that the silence signifies the doctrine is nonsense. I guess this sort of thing can be fun – you’ve told me yourself on another thread that people like to play games on the Internet – but this time I feel it’s worthwhile taking the question seriously because the Original Poster has asked her question in connection with a real person and a real situation and she’s trying to line up the answer in reality. She clearly does not intend to argue just for the sake of it in the hope that OSAS adherents will end up looking stupid and ignorant. She really does want to understand where OSAS adherents are coming from. That is so refreshing.

Because she is obviously genuine in her inquiry she is eventually going to realize that she is at the moment unconsciously superimposing her Catholic presuppositions and assumptions upon the question and once she realizes that she’ll quickly get to the answer and make it her own. She won’t call the doctrine nonsense or laugh at it. She’ll realize that within its parameters it is a perfectly sustainable position. From there she will go on to have meaningful dialogues with OSAS adherents. And at no time will she ever have to compromise her Catholic faith.

I really do want to help her to increase her understanding because she is one of the most influential Catholics on this forum. At the time of writing her CAF home page has well over six and half thousand hits, her CAF wall contains hundreds of messages, she is connected to dozens of CAF friends and she has started three CAF groups. Her posts are always charitable, she’s smart, she has an inquiring mind, and she is a committed Catholic. And when she does eventually get it she’ll respond to the question you’re asking by gently and courteously urging you to name the real person who has died unrepentant, describe all the actual circumstances and point to all the available evidence so she can help you to understand. And as you slowly defer to an impression of a guppy fish at feeding time you’ll then maybe get it, too.

I’ve enjoyed participating in this thread but I can’t add to what I’ve already put forward so I guess we will once more have to agree to disagree if that’s OK with you. I’m not going to make any more posts until whatevergirl returns with her verdict. There is more than enough here to enable her to come to an informed decision.

May God bless you always.

Sincerely,
Mick

Oh, please. No one is answering the question, which is a valid question, because they either can’t or won’t.

I don’t assume that they can’t. But I would love to know why they won’t. Someone must know what the actual teaching on OSAS is. As stated on this forum, it makes no sense. This can’t be the teaching.

And still you haven’t answered my question about OSAS. Are you saying that a OSAS is incapable of murder? Or incapable of dying unrepentant? Or that he is repentant for all that he ever does ahead of time?

Is it that you think I’m playing a game (which is false), or are you unwilling or unable to answer this valid question?

 

[kalt]

Mick, I don’t know what to say. You are too kind, sir. Honestly, I feel bathed in kindness today. What a blessing this CAF forum really is.

kalt–can an unrepentant sinner, who believes in the OSAS doctrine, reach heaven? When I meet people who believe in OSAS, or I read articles like the one about the shooter who believed this…I sometimes wonder if there are categories to the whole idea.

First, a person COULD believe that OSAS, means…"Jesus died for my sins, there is nothing MORE I need to do, to reach heaven.’’ The problem with that thinking, is that not only does it seem to give us a license to sin, but moreover, it seems to leave out what Jesus’ death was TRULY about. It wasn’t about giving us a free pass into heaven. It was about giving us the HOPE of eternal life. THE HOPE. That being said, Christ expects something from us, and that something is to be a followed of Him. “Take up your cross and follow Me.” ANYONE reading the Bible, reads this at some point. It means that to be a true follower of Christ, it doesn’t mean we won’t sin…but it does mean, we must STRIVE to follow Christ. Take up your cross. God knows we all have crosses, they might be out of our control, or might be self induced sins that we have gotten ourselves into. Either way, they serve as obstacles that keep us from Christ, if we do not surrender them to Christ.

So, if a murderer is unrepentant, just from a human standpoint, I wouldn’t imagine that person will find heaven, IF the person isn’t mentally ill, etc. God is all merciful, and He knows our hearts better than we do…completely not for us to call who goes to heaven, but we can make some educated guesses, I suppose.

***Second, the other category of OSAS, could be that someone feels OSAS means that Jesus died, and no other sacrifice is necessary to give us the HOPE of eternal life. This, I believe as a devout Catholic. There is nothing WE CAN do, to gain the hope of salvation. Before Christ’s death, I often wonder what a confusing time the Jews must have had, (and of course pagans) in thinking of the afterlife. Sacrificing lambs and whatever…that sounds so temporal…how could they ever KNOW they would be saved? I think about that a lot. I have many Jewish friends and I respect their views, but I still wonder…what do they think about eternal life, if their ‘method’ of attonement doesn’t involve Christ? But, that is a topic for another time. ***

But, as a Catholic, truly…there is nothing you nor I can do to gain the hope of heaven. What a marvelous act Jesus did for us…to die for us, so we can now have hope. But, with that hope, Jesus asks for us to become servants to God and others. He leaves us many teachings…but the two most important were…Love God with all of our hearts, minds and souls…AND to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. I think that OSAS means to me, that we cannot lose the HOPE of eternal life…it’s through God’s grace that that is there for us. We CAN lose salvation, however. In ways, we can’t speculate as mere humans, but we can take some hunches (unrepentant sin, etc) Jesus told His followers, that the gate to heaven is narrow…because He knew many would reject Him.

To be a follower of OSAS, and say the person isn’t Catholic–would be entirely acceptable to Catholics and non Catholics alike, if the person takes the stance of my second category. I have heard non Catholic preachers talk about "there is nothing you can do to lose salvation.’’ I am always tempted to call in and ask…"do you mean lose the HOPE of salvation, or anyone goes to heaven because of Jesus’ sacrifice?’'

Maybe someday I will.

More later…I dohave a job that I need to get back to! Yikes!

If they mean to say hope of salvation, it makes perfect sense. All anyone has to to is turn to God again. No one is cut off from God forever unless he chooses to be cut off.