Once saved, always saved--please help me understand this

[whatevergirl]

hi Whatever:
I’d like to add a few thoughts to your thread. I already posted about this on another thread. (please see “Faulty doctrine in the news” - Apologetics)

i know your thinking; How could a Christian who goes to a church commit such an ugly crime? My theory is that it started with a lot of self pity and envy and an overbearing personality that couldn’t make freinds. The other tradgedy is that no one in his church seems to have reached out to him and his pastor seems to have been missleading. This guy let these sins take root in his life. He started hating on others. This can often let a demon in. Turned out to be a demon of murder. Yes, Christians can be influenced by demons. The devils will always try to convince you of their lies. This is how they tricked Adam and Eve. He told Eve that they would not die but God had said they would and they did, yet i think that i will still see them in heaven. Well what about Acts Ch.5? Ananias and Sapphira died without a chance to repent. We know they were church members and assume they were saved. Did God banish them to hell because of this one misstake? Notice that Peter asked, “Why hath Satan filled thine heart…” I believe it is possible that they will be in heaven. Here’s why:

What most people don’t understand is that salvation is not a “sin” question but a “Son” question. You see, 1Jn. 2:2 says that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, not just for ours. So sins have been taken out of the way. People don’t go to Hell because of sin, but because they reject the Gospel of Christ. Yet, if we presume upon God and knowingly and intentionally continue in sin, thinking it is forgiven, as it says in Heb. 10, there “remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins…” Grace is never a license to sin. Neverthe less, I believe in the security of the believer. As St. Jude said, “Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.” This is the savior i know and trust. I’m trusting that He is holding on to me more than my ability to hold on to Him. What about you, is this the Jesus you know?

*Hello–thanks for your reply.

But, if a believer doesn’t follow Christ’s teachings…a person can believe in Christ, and that He died for our sins, but if he refuses to FOLLOW Him, what can we say about that person? Neither you nor me knows who is in heaven…I pray that we will be there together, someday. But, Jesus never said that only those who believe that I am the Savior, will go to heaven. In fact, He told St Paul that ‘faith without works is dead,’ meaning that when we accept God’s free gift of His Son dying for our sins, that that doesn’t mean we have no responsibility to follow His Son.

And I didn’t ask why would this person who goes to church commit this sin? I asked what the shooter’s thought was on OSAS, based on what he learned at his church. Many people believe that God exists, and that Jesus is Lord, but they still commit crimes. My question was a little two fold…a) what is OSAS from the standpoint of what the killer might have believed and was taught and b) what exactly is OSAS.

It’s very easy to say we love Jesus, but following Him is harder. We are called to take up our crosses and follow Christ, as He taught us. Not just believe, but also to follow. That is more of what I’m saying, and I wonder if the killer understood that? *

 

[whatevergirl]

Technical note: In Catholic theology, “presumption” means assuming that one can achieve salvation on one’s own, through one’s own efforts, without the need of God’s grace, or Christ’s work. So “presumption” is not one of the problems with OSAS,

Blessings,

Gerry

*Thanks for adding that! *

 

[CWBetts]

Technical note: In Catholic theology, “presumption” means assuming that one can achieve salvation on one’s own, through one’s own efforts, without the need of God’s grace, or Christ’s work. So “presumption” is not one of the problems with OSAS,

Blessings,

Gerry

Perhaps I should have used the word “arrogant”

 

[CWBetts]

hi Whatever:
I’d like to add a few thoughts to your thread. I already posted about this on another thread. (please see “Faulty doctrine in the news” - Apologetics)

i know your thinking; How could a Christian who goes to a church commit such an ugly crime? My theory is that it started with a lot of self pity and envy and an overbearing personality that couldn’t make freinds. The other tradgedy is that no one in his church seems to have reached out to him and his pastor seems to have been missleading. This guy let these sins take root in his life. He started hating on others. This can often let a demon in. Turned out to be a demon of murder. Yes, Christians can be influenced by demons. The devils will always try to convince you of their lies. This is how they tricked Adam and Eve. He told Eve that they would not die but God had said they would and they did, yet i think that i will still see them in heaven. Well what about Acts Ch.5? Ananias and Sapphira died without a chance to repent. We know they were church members and assume they were saved. Did God banish them to hell because of this one misstake? Notice that Peter asked, “Why hath Satan filled thine heart…” I believe it is possible that they will be in heaven. Here’s why:

What most people don’t understand is that salvation is not a “sin” question but a “Son” question. You see, 1Jn. 2:2 says that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, not just for ours. So sins have been taken out of the way. People don’t go to Hell because of sin, but because they reject the Gospel of Christ. Yet, if we presume upon God and knowingly and intentionally continue in sin, thinking it is forgiven, as it says in Heb. 10, there “remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins…” Grace is never a license to sin. Neverthe less, I believe in the security of the believer. As St. Jude said, “Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.” This is the savior i know and trust. I’m trusting that He is holding on to me more than my ability to hold on to Him. What about you, is this the Jesus you know?

Salvation IS a sin question! If it was not, then why are we continually exhorted to avoid sin? If sin does not affect our relationship with Christ, then why does it even matter? In thoery, according to OSAS, you have no responsibility to follow moral law whatsoever. You are still saved. What keeps thoery from becoming practice? ANd really, Christ’s parables make no sense if viewed with OSAS glasses. The parable of the sower: who are those that fall away after recieving the word? The parable of the unjust servant: why is he thrown in prison after initially being forgiven? When compared with the parables, OSAS falls to pieces.

 

[whatevergirl]

Salvation IS a sin question! If it was not, then why are we continually exhorted to avoid sin? If sin does not affect our relationship with Christ, then why does it even matter? In thoery, according to OSAS, you have no responsibility to follow moral law whatsoever. You are still saved. What keeps thoery from becoming practice? ANd really, Christ’s parables make no sense if viewed with OSAS glasses. The parable of the sower: who are those that fall away after recieving the word? The parable of the unjust servant: why is he thrown in prison after initially being forgiven? When compared with the parables, OSAS falls to pieces.

Agreed. And to add, we are only hightlightingTruth, in the objective form. I think OSAS and other ‘ideaologies’ take form, when non Catholics have too many diffierent people interpreting Scripture for them, to them. I find such comfort and peace in knowing that we have one authority, our Papacy to interpret Scripture, with perfect infallbility. Give the Bible to ten different people and they will have ten different interpretations of this or that passage–again, comforting to know that our Papacy has the God given ability to interpret Scripture in the way God intended, without human error.

 

[kalt]

The Blood of Christ wased away all sins, so sinning really didn’t have any effect on your status as saved/unsaved. We were to avoid sin because the Bible said so, but if we fell into sin, it was no big deal, just repent and hit the SPiritual “reset button” The biggest effect that sin had was your social status in the church. For example, if it was believes that you “weren’t right with God” then you were treated like you weren;t even there. ANd how could you tell if you were “right with God”? If you offended Him, he would withold all blessings. It was very much a “health and wealth” Gospel.

Would they guess that someone who came down with a chronic disease wasn’t right with God?

 

[CWBetts]

Would they guess that someone who came down with a chronic disease wasn’t right with God?

That would be the assumption. For example, it was taught from the pu;pit that AIDS was God’s way of exterminating homosexuals…repulsive

 

[Kalos]

*Hello–thanks for your reply.

But, if a believer doesn’t follow Christ’s teachings…a person can believe in Christ, and that He died for our sins, but if he refuses to FOLLOW Him, what can we say about that person? Neither you nor me knows who is in heaven…I pray that we will be there together, someday. But, Jesus never said that only those who believe that I am the Savior, will go to heaven. In fact, He told St Paul that ‘faith without works is dead,’ meaning that when we accept God’s free gift of His Son dying for our sins, that that doesn’t mean we have no responsibility to follow His Son.

And I didn’t ask why would this person who goes to church commit this sin? I asked what the shooter’s thought was on OSAS, based on what he learned at his church. Many people believe that God exists, and that Jesus is Lord, but they still commit crimes. My question was a little two fold…a) what is OSAS from the standpoint of what the killer might have believed and was taught and b) what exactly is OSAS.

It’s very easy to say we love Jesus, but following Him is harder. We are called to take up our crosses and follow Christ, as He taught us. Not just believe, but also to follow. That is more of what I’m saying, and I wonder if the killer understood that? *

Yes, Whatever, if our walk doesn’t match our talk, then it really doesn’t matter what one believes, there is some real danger ahead. (Some smoke and flame in your future) But, just to be honest, my walk sometimes falters. I feel like the man in Rms. 7. Then what do I do? Am I still saved? Well yes, as long as I can still repent Jesus will restore me. For me, He is a shepherd who will leave the 99 to go find the lost one. He doesn’t lose any. This is the security I believe in. Not sinning with abandon and then presuming upon grace. I think this poor guy was very decieved. His understanding of OSAS was dead wrong. I think we probably agree on that.

Does Eternal Security mean anything for you? Or is it your ability to follow Christ that you lean on?

 

[whatevergirl]

Yes, Whatever, if our walk doesn’t match our talk, then it really doesn’t matter what one believes, there is some real danger ahead. (Some smoke and flame in your future) But, just to be honest, my walk sometimes falters. I feel like the man in Rms. 7. Then what do I do? Am I still saved? Well yes, as long as I can still repent Jesus will restore me. For me, He is a shepherd who will leave the 99 to go find the lost one. He doesn’t lose any. This is the security I believe in. Not sinning with abandon and then presuming upon grace. I think this poor guy was very decieved. His understanding of OSAS was dead wrong. I think we probably agree on that.

Does Eternal Security mean anything for you? Or is it your ability to follow Christ that you lean on?

*I think that it’s a two fold relationship. Jesus’ free gift of the hope of eternal life, will always be free. There is nothing we can do to ‘earn’ salvation, but perhaps, we can lose it if we choose to reject Christ’s teachings. It is entirely possible to ‘say’ we accept Christ as our Savior, but do nothing to show that love in our lives.

But, to answer your last two questions…I don’t have the ability to follow Christ, without His grace. The only ability I have is to take the free will He has given to us, and to open myself to Him, for His will to be done. *

 

[Fisher]

Gods’ plan of salvation does not make sense to people because it is so simple.It cant be that easy ,that is just to easy it does not make sense to me. Well think about Mary the mother of Jesus It did not make sense to her that she was pregent and knew not a man.

**Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? **

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. done deal !

For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (Romans10:3)

 

[whatevergirl]

Gods’ plan of salvation does not make sense to people because it is so simple.It cant be that easy ,that is just to easy it does not make sense to me. Well think about Mary the mother of Jesus It did not make sense to her that she was pregent and knew not a man.

**Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? **

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. done deal !

For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (Romans10:3)

*Following Christ is creating one’s "own righteousness?’’ That passage often refers to the Pharisees and others beyond that time, and how they didn’t understand Christ, and how they viewed Christ as going against THEIR laws …etc. The Church follows Christ–He is Her head. She doesn’t create her own rules or righteousness.

Just to clarify. *

 

[whatevergirl]

I think where people get tangled up in not understanding Catholicism, is that they believe in involves more than Christ’s teachings. The Catholic Church was built upon Christ’s teachings…Christ asking Peter to build ‘His Church.’ I think that over the years, perhaps it began with Luther, that the Church is somehow following Christ BUT ALSO creating its own ideals about God, and morality. No, The Church follows Christ, always has, always will…it is not a manmade institution. It is not uncommon though for non Catholics to misinterpret Catholics’ views, as this, though.

 

[Fisher]

I don’t have an answer for you. It seems, though, that most who believe in the OSAS idea and have responded on this board, think that you can tell who is and isn’t saved by how they act. They would say, contrary to the pastor’s opinion, that that man was never saved.

OSAS is an idea that can’t be supported.

that is not 100% accurate.

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t have an answer for you. It seems, though, that most who believe in the OSAS idea and have responded on this board, think that you can tell who is and isn’t saved by how they act. They would say, contrary to the pastor’s opinion, that that man was never saved.

OSAS is an idea that can’t be supported.

*Hi kalt;

Yeah, I have always thought that was an interesting thing to note…that many people who follow OSAS might have said that about this particular gym shooter…“oh, well, he was never saved.” The irony is with that statement, we ALL have the hope of salvation…the question is…was he ‘born again’’ might be the more accurate question*.

 

[kalt]

Hi kalt;

Yeah, I have always thought that was an interesting thing to note…that many people who follow OSAS might have said that about this particular gym shooter…“oh, well, he was never saved.” The irony is with that statement, we ALL have the hope of salvation…the question is…was he ‘born again’’ might be the more accurate question.

And if he was “born again” and then commited the murders - what then?

 

[kalt]

Gods’ plan of salvation does not make sense to people because it is so simple.It cant be that easy ,that is just to easy it does not make sense to me. Well think about Mary the mother of Jesus It did not make sense to her that she was pregent and knew not a man.

**Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? **

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. done deal !

For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (Romans10:3)

And what happened to Adam? Wasn’t the instruction to him and Eve so simple? What happened, then?

To all - is Adam a good example to use, do you think?

 

[kalt]

That would be the assumption. For example, it was taught from the pu;pit that AIDS was God’s way of exterminating homosexuals…repulsive

In contrast, the CC is one of the largest donors to the AIDS cause worldwide.

Why do people in 1st world still believe that illness is a punishment from God. Haven’t they had at least one biology or anatomy class? Sheesh.

 

[whatevergirl]

And if he was “born again” and then commited the murders - what then?

*I think the only thing we can truly ever say, is that God is all merciful…we have no idea who will be in heaven…the man here in question, clearly had problems that could render him not capable of making sound decisions like you and me. There are murderers however who do things out of sheer malice…Saddam Hussein comes to mind, Hitler, etc…but possibly they could also have been insane, to a degree. Can anyone be completely ‘sane’ and still commit heinous atrocities, I don’t know.

At mass today, our priest touched upon faith without works being dead. He said that just saying ‘yes’ to God is an ACTION. Jesus’ death upon the cross was a free gift, but we as humans, have free will …and CAN reject God, if we choose. Our yes is the first action in becoming ‘reborn’ and thus, other ‘actions’ should follow to show that we are true followers of Christ. Do you agree with that, kalt? *

 

[CWBetts]

In contrast, the CC is one of the largest donors to the AIDS cause worldwide.

Why do people in 1st world still believe that illness is a punishment from God. Haven’t they had at least one biology or anatomy class? Sheesh.

I should qualify my statements in that they only apply to the radical communitiy i was associated with. Not all OSAS adherents are this extreme, or at least I would hope they aren’t. This community also bouht into, and propegated the lie that science is 100% opposed to Christianity. If science contradicts a literalist interperetation of the Holy Scriptures, then the science is wrong. Therefore they rejected a great deal of science.

 

[Kalos]

I think where people get tangled up in not understanding Catholicism, is that they believe in involves more than Christ’s teachings. The Catholic Church was built upon Christ’s teachings…Christ asking Peter to build ‘His Church.’ I think that over the years, perhaps it began with Luther, that the Church is somehow following Christ BUT ALSO creating its own ideals about God, and morality. No, The Church follows Christ, always has, always will…it is not a manmade institution. It is not uncommon though for non Catholics to misinterpret Catholics’ views, as this, though.

Yes, you’re right, it would be very hard for anyone to understand the Catholic viewpoint. Scripture reads “and upon this rock I will build my Church”. “I” is first person and refers to the speaker who is Christ, not Peter. This seems very plain to me, but those who are wearing Rome colored glasses claim to see something different. Guess that’s why we will never agree.