Once saved, always saved--please help me understand this

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*I think the only thing we can truly ever say, is that God is all merciful…we have no idea who will be in heaven…the man here in question, clearly had problems that could render him not capable of making sound decisions like you and me. There are murderers however who do things out of sheer malice…Saddam Hussein comes to mind, Hitler, etc…but possibly they could also have been insane, to a degree. Can anyone be completely ‘sane’ and still commit heinous atrocities, I don’t know. *

*At mass today, our priest touched upon faith without works being dead. He said that just saying ‘yes’ to God is an ACTION. Jesus’ death upon the cross was a free gift, but we as humans, have free will …and CAN reject God, if we choose. Our yes is the first action in becoming ‘reborn’ and thus, other ‘actions’ should follow to show that we are true followers of Christ. Do you agree with that, kalt? *
Actions for the right reason count. I would think that any action that’s done “to show” probably is bordering on not doing any good for us - eternally.

We’re supposed to act out of love for God. All actions are supposed to be done in love.
If we’re doing this or that to prove to ourselves, our fellow parishoners, or God that we are “saved” or “right with God”, I think the motive will be looked at closely.

What do you think?
 
Salvation IS a sin question! If it was not, then why are we continually exhorted to avoid sin? If sin does not affect our relationship with Christ, then why does it even matter? In thoery, according to OSAS, you have no responsibility to follow moral law whatsoever. You are still saved. What keeps thoery from becoming practice? ANd really, Christ’s parables make no sense if viewed with OSAS glasses. The parable of the sower: who are those that fall away after recieving the word? The parable of the unjust servant: why is he thrown in prison after initially being forgiven? When compared with the parables, OSAS falls to pieces.
You have no understanding of OSAS that’s clear…And salvation is a sin question ONLY if you’re not a regenerate born again Christian.

If Jesus is NOT the LORD of ones life then no matter what they say they believe, their sin will convict them to eternal damnation. Your misrepresentation shows your lack of understanding.
 
That would be the assumption. For example, it was taught from the pu;pit that AIDS was God’s way of exterminating homosexuals…repulsive
I tend to take scripture at it’s word…What do you interpret this to mean?

Romans 1:27
and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
 
I tend to take scripture at it’s word…What do you interpret this to mean?

Romans 1:27
and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
I take it to mean spiritual death, eternal seperation from God, not as a deplorable attempt to justify bigotry.
 
You have no understanding of OSAS that’s clear…And salvation is a sin question ONLY if you’re not a regenerate born again Christian.

If Jesus is NOT the LORD of ones life then no matter what they say they believe, their sin will convict them to eternal damnation. Your misrepresentation shows your lack of understanding.
I have a full understanding of this thourougjly unbiblical teaching. As I have said I was a member of such a Church. That is the thing about Protestantism. With no absolute authority, you end up with varying “right” interpretations of the Scriptures, which leads to chaos and confusion.
 
You have no understanding of OSAS that’s clear…And salvation is a sin question ONLY if you’re not a regenerate born again Christian.
For that to be true, one must assume that either:
  • “A regenerate, born again Christian” never sins after being regenerated and born again, that is, becomes impeccable, or,
-They sin, but sin no longer matters, somehow, and with respect to salvation, they now have impunity when it comes to sinning.

Neither of these things will stand the scrutiny of either history, or the teachings found in Holy Scripture.
Jesus is NOT the LORD of ones life then no matter what they say they believe, their sin will convict them to eternal damnation. Your misrepresentation shows your lack of understanding.
This assumes that one has to know of Jesus, or God, for that matter, to be the recipient of God’s grace. There is no warrant in either Church teaching or Holy Scripture that God’s grace does other than abound, or that it is, a priori, specifically withheld from anyone. Although it is certainly true that both Church teaching and Holy Scripture indicate efficacious ways of availing one’s self of that abounding grace, nowhere in either is it explicitly stated that access to it is denied to anyone.

One wonders how long it will be before OSAS proponents adopt Doby Gray’s song, “I’m In With the In Crowd” as one of their worship songs. It always strikes me as ironic how OSAS proponents can push the Calvinist concept of limited atonement to such an extreme position, and yet still claim that the Church is somehow elitist and triumpalist.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Actions for the right reason count. I would think that any action that’s done “to show” probably is bordering on not doing any good for us - eternally.

We’re supposed to act out of love for God. All actions are supposed to be done in love.
If we’re doing this or that to prove to ourselves, our fellow parishoners, or God that we are “saved” or “right with God”, I think the motive will be looked at closely.

What do you think?
*Yes, all actions that we do for the Lord, should be born out of our love for Him, indeed. I agree. *
 
I struggled with this when I left the Catholic Church when I was taught 'liberation theology by the Jesuits and had to register for the required courses in theology and philosophy. One of the course we were given the book by Teilhard de Chardin which the 1962 proclamation condemned his teachings and has not been rescinded.

I went over to Protestantism and traveled from one denomination to another. Protestants have a hard problem with the Pope being the head but I found and observe that if you teach doctrine contrary to that particular denomination or church, you’re kicked out. So I don’t see any difference in the concept. But that is besides the point.

Interesting enough, what brought me back to investigate who holds the truth was a Baptist missionary by the name of Paul Washer that gave a sermon to the youth at the Southern Baptist Convention that went viral over the internet and flew in the face of SBC doctrine. It can be found here and is worth watching:
youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

Then durng my research I came across another Protestant who wrote on the myth of eternal security which blew OSAS out of the water since the word believe in the Greek is present tense aorist which means a continual state of beleiving not a past tense or one time event.

With that said, I was trying to determine who had the truth and so I started on my journey through 3000 years of doctrine, writings and teachings. Since when I started reading Romans, I would get ’ whiplashed’ from going back and forth doctrinally. One chapter would read OSAS, the next Calvin, the next conditional security. It’s been very depressing and discouraging so I went back to the early church fathers. After reading their writings since they were appointed to the position of overseer in the churches bythe apostles through the power of the Holy Spirit and were taught by them and fellowshipped with them to pass on the correct doctrine, then I had to agree with them because logically to dispute them would be to dispute the apostles’ teaching and ultimately Christ. I found the liturgy of the CC as being dull and irrelevant for today but then I came across a fragment discovered that had the liturgy of worship written by the Lord’s brother James Bishop of the church of Jerusalem who was martyred. It’s the same lituryg as today. So if Jesus through his apostles established this is the way God is to be worship, then how can I disagree. Today, so many churches try to make it relevant to the younger generation and in so doing are really telling God, this is way we are going to worship you.

OSAS believes that Jesus paid the penalty for all sins by condemning sin in the flesh once and full all so the righteous requirements of the law be fulfilled and there is no longer anymore sacrifice for sins and that means past, present and future sins. Sin was condemned so that we may be righteous. The penalty for sin was wiped out at the cross for those that believe. So when you accept Christ His righteous is imputed to you so that when God looks at you, He does not see a sinner but the righteousness of Christ through the shed Blood of Christ. The believer is justified not in his work but the work of Christ. When a believer sins, he looses fellowship with God but never a relationship with God. If he continues not to work out his salvation called sanctification, then the Lord disciplines those He loves and will bring circumstances in your life to chastise you to get you back on the path. How you work out your salvation in this life will determine your crowns, rewards or position in heaven never your salvation. For if you were to loose your salvation, then your salvation could not be called eternal but termporary or conditional. He gives us the seal of his Holy Spirit as a guarantee for in Romans he is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them and there are a mulitude of other scriptures supporint the position. In the Gospel of John Jesus prays to the Father that those who are called s He will not loose any of those. So to me at the time was the ‘Good News’

Sorry to be so long winded but the basic fact is that there are a great number of scriptures supporting each doctrinal position, and a great number refuting each doctrinal position, thus the Reformation and my struggles to understand.

It is hard to come back to the CC since an earlier observation about the CC made in this post has some relevancy. I am stuck on some issues of salvation since no man could be found righteous through keeping the law before Chirst and Christ requires a higher standard of not only conduct but thoughts and deeds, how can anyone keep Christ commandments when they couldn’t before? Where is the ‘Good News’ if we are going to be judged by our works before God and we walk through life carrying a scale around to make sure our works are greater then our sins? I agonize over this as well as many CC members which our Protestant brothers say is the fallacy of CC doctinre. No ’ Blessed Assurance’. How do you know you completed enough good works to warrant salvation? If you left the church went in the world for 40 years, how many good works do you need to overcome bearing bad fruit. I cannot find anywhere the forgiveness of Christ for our sins after Baptism having an effect at the great white throne judgement! God states that you will be judged for every work, every thought, every speech done in this life whether good or bad so why no mention that the sacrament of penance has wiped the slate clean? OSAS states that God is judging only the unbelievers but Rev. states all are judge by what they had done. OSAS believes believing in Chist is the work exempting you from damnation. So I fall back at times to St. Augustine’s work of predestined saints. I’m stumped. Any enlightenment? Maybe that is why Constantine and many believers waited until they were dying to receive baptism.

Again, I appologize for being so long winded as it is difficult to find anyone that can explain it clearly.
 
We have to be careful about the term “judgement.” Of course, we will be judged, but by God, who is perfect justice and perfect compassion at the same time. The consequence of this that neither one will compromise the other when He dispenses judgement. We can’t understand this fully, for that capability is beyond our grasp.

The Catholic approach must include the concept of sanctifying grace, which OSAS proponents neither acknowledge nor credit. A soul with sanctifying grace has eternal life. Without it, the soul is not spiritually living and so cannot enter heaven. Mortal sin deprives the soul of sanctifying grace, and eternal life. To die in such a state is to loose heaven. To die with sanctifying grace, but with the effects of sin still unremoved from the soul is still to gain heaven, but not until the effects of sin have been removed in purgatory.

When humans conceptualize judgement, laws and balance sheets and mitigating circumstances, and other things mix together. God’s judgement cannot be like that. It must, by His nature, be clear and sublime. It is that kind of judgement we will face. We will receive perfect justice, and I suspect we will know it.

This does not diminish the necessary work Christ’s death accomplished. The effects of sin had blocked the way to the Father. That way is no longer blocked. Souls with eternal life can now enter heaven. Justification, this opening of the way, has been fully achieved, once and for all, and only God become man could do it.

I have real problems with concepts that substitute the idea of a God who purposefully pretends to be seeing someone else when a soul enters heaven. I have much less problem with the Church’s teaching that God the Son has achieved justification for us by his work here on earth, and that we face a judgement more perfect than we can possibly comprehend. It doesn’t bother me that I can’t fully understand everything about God, such as how such complete and perfect justice can be dispensed. It does bother me to have him portrayed as one who works on the basis of pretending a soul is other than what it is.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
To die with sanctifying grace, but with the effects of sin still unremoved from the soul is still to gain heaven, but not until the effects of sin have been removed in purgatory.
I kind of understand the concept of sanctifying grace in believing the fact that I can obtain heaven as long as I don’t have mortal sin on my soul and die in grace. But then, in revelations at the great white throne judgment and in the olivetti discourse in Matt 25 31:46 sanctifying grace is not even mentioned but judgment and separation falls between the sheep and the goats based on good works accomplished through your life. I don’t want to be decieved on the basis of a false premise by the assertions of theologians. I’ve been through the ‘how many angels can dance on the head of pin’ discussions growing up. My time is short here on earth, I suffer greatly in ill health and need to reconcile this juxtaposition between the two.

Thanks for your reply
 
\God states that you will be judged for every work, every thought, every speech done in this life whether good or bad so why no mention that the sacrament of penance has wiped the slate clean? OSAS states that God is judging only the unbelievers but Rev. states all are judge by what they had done. OSAS believes believing in Chist is the work exempting you from damnation. So I fall back at times to St. Augustine’s work of predestined saints. I’m stumped. Any enlightenment? Maybe that is why Constantine and many believers waited until they were dying to receive baptism.

Again, I appologize for being so long winded as it is difficult to find anyone that can explain it clearly.
This was an interesting post and I, for one, appreciate you being so long winded.

Since you are more than familiar with Christian doctrine, I’ll cut to the chase:

The problem I have with complete depravity is that God made man in his own image and everything that God created was good. So even though man disobeyed God by eating the fruit, this does not mean that man is inherently evil.

In light of this, Christ was not a patsy for my sin, but rather an example of what God intended man to be. This is the real merit of his death and resurrection. Faith in Christ means that I act as Christ did; dying to the flesh, reborn in the Spirit. Faith and works are not two different things; one goes in hand with the other. My sins aren’t covered up, they are washed away, revealing the image of God: a new man, a son of God.

As St. John says in the Gospel:

12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The total depravity doctrine makes God into a vengeful tyrant who brings people to him through fear of his wrath. He murdered his own son so that a wretch like me could live and then, when he feels like it, takes away my sin out of mercy. Only if my faith is real, which I can never know, no matter how much I repent. Talk about learned helplessness. I can be a total louse towards people because that is my nature. If God wants me to be good, he’ll step in and do something. Where is the goodness in the world that God created? Where is the soul that God gave me? It appears from Calvin’s doctrine that he hates his own creation.

This is not God. God is Logos. Another translation of the Word is reason. God is reasonable. We reflect his image when we are reasonable, not giving into our passions, seeing clearly with beatitude and his Grace. Total depravity divides reason from faith.
 
OSAS believes that Jesus paid the penalty for all sins by condemning sin in the flesh once and full all so the righteous requirements of the law be fulfilled and there is no longer anymore sacrifice for sins and that means past, present and future sins. Sin was condemned so that we may be righteous. The penalty for sin was wiped out at the cross for those that believe. So when you accept Christ His righteous is imputed to you so that when God looks at you, He does not see a sinner but the righteousness of Christ through the shed Blood of Christ. The believer is justified not in his work but the work of Christ. When a believer sins, he looses fellowship with God but never a relationship with God. If he continues not to work out his salvation called sanctification, then the Lord disciplines those He loves and will bring circumstances in your life to chastise you to get you back on the path. How you work out your salvation in this life will determine your crowns, rewards or position in heaven never your salvation. For if you were to loose your salvation, then your salvation could not be called eternal but termporary or conditional. He gives us the seal of his Holy Spirit as a guarantee for in Romans he is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them and there are a mulitude of other scriptures supporint the position. In the Gospel of John Jesus prays to the Father that those who are called s He will not loose any of those. So to me at the time was the ‘Good News’

Sorry to be so long winded but the basic fact is that there are a great number of scriptures supporting each doctrinal position, and a great number refuting each doctrinal position, thus the Reformation and my struggles to understand.

It is hard to come back to the CC since an earlier observation about the CC made in this post has some relevancy. I am stuck on some issues of salvation since no man could be found righteous through keeping the law before Chirst and Christ requires a higher standard of not only conduct but thoughts and deeds, how can anyone keep Christ commandments when they couldn’t before? Where is the ‘Good News’ if we are going to be judged by our works before God and we walk through life carrying a scale around to make sure our works are greater then our sins? I agonize over this as well as many CC members which our Protestant brothers say is the fallacy of CC doctinre. No ’ Blessed Assurance’. How do you know you completed enough good works to warrant salvation? If you left the church went in the world for 40 years, how many good works do you need to overcome bearing bad fruit. I cannot find anywhere the forgiveness of Christ for our sins after Baptism having an effect at the great white throne judgement! God states that you will be judged for every work, every thought, every speech done in this life whether good or bad so why no mention that the sacrament of penance has wiped the slate clean? OSAS states that God is judging only the unbelievers but Rev. states all are judge by what they had done. OSAS believes believing in Chist is the work exempting you from damnation. So I fall back at times to St. Augustine’s work of predestined saints. I’m stumped. Any enlightenment? Maybe that is why Constantine and many believers waited until they were dying to receive baptism.

Again, I appologize for being so long winded as it is difficult to find anyone that can explain it clearly.
Those who die relying, in any way, upon their own earthly works will be judged by all of their works before God. By relying in any manner upon any of their own works for their justification , they have denied what Christ did perfectly for them on the Cross. The smallest denial of Christ’s completed work of redemption is the same as being a non-believer. We must come before God as a very young child would when it comes to redemption. We can only receive God’s Gift of salvation in humble trust. There is nothing we can add to that work in saving ourselves.

Those relying on carnal works of baptism, altar calls, etc, to become justified or saved before God are fooling themselves. Salvation is not by our own works; it is strictly the “Work of God” as Jesus explained to those asking how they could do the works of salvation.
 
Those who die relying, in any way, upon their own earthly works will be judged by all of their works before God. By relying in any manner upon any of their own works for their justification , they have denied what Christ did perfectly for them on the Cross. The smallest denial of Christ’s completed work of redemption is the same as being a non-believer. We must come before God as a very young child would when it comes to redemption. We can only receive God’s Gift of salvation in humble trust. There is nothing we can add to that work in saving ourselves.

Those relying on carnal works of baptism, altar calls, etc, to become justified or saved before God are fooling themselves. Salvation is not by our own works; it is strictly the “Work of God” as Jesus explained to those asking how they could do the works of salvation.
The Sacraments, by their very nature, are the works of God. In Baptism, it is Christ who washes away our sin. It is Christ who sanctifies the union in Holy Matrimony, it is Christ who forgives in Penance and Reconciliation. It is Jesus who sanctifies the priest in Holy Orders. We cooperate in salvation by presenting ourselves for the sacraments, but it is 100% the work of God. And we know that it is the work of God because of the way these seven sacraments were spoken of in the Holy Scriptures, and by the Early Church Fathers. Your post shows that you have a serious misunderstanding of the Gospel.
 
The Sacraments, by their very nature, are the works of God. In Baptism, it is Christ who washes away our sin. It is Christ who sanctifies the union in Holy Matrimony, it is Christ who forgives in Penance and Reconciliation. It is Jesus who sanctifies the priest in Holy Orders. We cooperate in salvation by presenting ourselves for the sacraments, but it is 100% the work of God. And we know that it is the work of God because of the way these seven sacraments were spoken of in the Holy Scriptures, and by the Early Church Fathers. Your post shows that you have a serious misunderstanding of the Gospel.
And your post shows you have a serious UNDERSTANDING of the Gospel. 😃 Seriously, I have enjoyed reading your posts…and I appreciate your contribution in this thread.
 
It’s one thing to grasp the teachings of the Church, and to understand how they relate back to Scripture…it’s another to articulate it well…which you do. I don’t mean to embarass. lol I think that you are what Pope JP2 talked about when he said…the new evangelization. We are called to do this, I wish I was more articulate at times with it. :o
 
It’s one thing to grasp the teachings of the Church, and to understand how they relate back to Scripture…it’s another to articulate it well…which you do. I don’t mean to embarass. lol I think that you are what Pope JP2 talked about when he said…the new evangelization. We are called to do this, I wish I was more articulate at times with it. :o
I cannot take credit for the posts. I try to immerse myself in the faith, and my posts come from men with far greater skill than I can claim. For example, if you watch the DVD “Common Ground” Fr. John Riccardo explains the sacraments, and i used his explanation in my post. What Protestants call “plagiarism” Catholics call “Tradition” :D. I have only been Catholic a short while, but I am leaning as much as I can.
 
I cannot take credit for the posts. I try to immerse myself in the faith, and my posts come from men with far greater skill than I can claim. For example, if you watch the DVD “Common Ground” Fr. John Riccardo explains the sacraments, and i used his explanation in my post. What Protestants call “plagiarism” Catholics call “Tradition” :D. I have only been Catholic a short while, but I am leaning as much as I can.
As I think you can see, CWB, we are indeed blessed to have a church who is both Mater and Magistra. Mothers, after all, are the best teachers. You are doing the right thing in availing yourself of her centuries of teachings.

OSAS is an example of rejecting not just the specific teachings, but the very teaching role of the church. Cut down to nothing but the personal interpretation of Holy Scripture, the results are, like OSAS, shallow as well as in error. God can no longer purify souls, and must pretend they are other than they are in that scheme. Now that is truncated and shallow.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
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