Once saved, always saved--please help me understand this

[Kalos]

This was an interesting post and I, for one, appreciate you being so long winded.

Since you are more than familiar with Christian doctrine, I’ll cut to the chase:

The problem I have with complete depravity is that God made man in his own image and everything that God created was good. So even though man disobeyed God by eating the fruit, this does not mean that man is inherently evil.

In light of this, Christ was not a patsy for my sin, but rather an example of what God intended man to be. This is the real merit of his death and resurrection. Faith in Christ means that I act as Christ did; dying to the flesh, reborn in the Spirit. Faith and works are not two different things; one goes in hand with the other. My sins aren’t covered up, they are washed away, revealing the image of God: a new man, a son of God.

As St. John says in the Gospel:

12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The total depravity doctrine makes God into a vengeful tyrant who brings people to him through fear of his wrath. He murdered his own son so that a wretch like me could live and then, when he feels like it, takes away my sin out of mercy. Only if my faith is real, which I can never know, no matter how much I repent. Talk about learned helplessness. I can be a total louse towards people because that is my nature. If God wants me to be good, he’ll step in and do something. Where is the goodness in the world that God created? Where is the soul that God gave me? It appears from Calvin’s doctrine that he hates his own creation.

This is not God. God is Logos. Another translation of the Word is reason. God is reasonable. We reflect his image when we are reasonable, not giving into our passions, seeing clearly with beatitude and his Grace. Total depravity divides reason from faith.

Where did you get your information on “Total Depravity”, Authenticity? Have you actually read the Canons of Dordt? Or are you just repeating a popular misconception among Catholics? The Synod of Dordt 1618 (nothing directly to do with Calvin) was a response to the Remonstronce of 1610. TULIP was a part of articals or canons of faith formed by the Dutch Church as a response to followers of Arminius who were causing a theological stir. Total Depravity is perhaps a bad title for the doctrine it represents, but what it says is only that man is unable to save himself. It does not mean that man is only evil. Does anyone seriosly disagree with this?

 

[brkn1]

OSAS is an example of rejecting not just the specific teachings, but the very teaching role of the church. Cut down to nothing but the personal interpretation of Holy Scripture, the results are, like OSAS, shallow as well as in error. God can no longer purify souls, and must pretend they are other than they are in that scheme. Now that is truncated and shallow.

Blessings,

Gerry

Christ came as the sacrificial Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world as John the Baptist said.
Christ finished His role as the sacrificial Redeemer on the Cross.
Christ paid the full price required to fulfill the perfect justice of God. Only Christ could do that as our High Priest.
As our High Priest, Christ offered Himself once “to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” (Hebrews 9:26)
This one Sacrifice does not continue or remain unfinished. The reason for this statement is that a “continued sacrifice” does not allow for a completed death of Christ, which is the requirement for any power in the New Testament that results from Christ’s death.
“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17)

Christ rose from the dead, never to die again as is the requirement of being “made a High Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.” (Hebrews 6:20)
Christ remains as our Mediator and High Priest in Heaven at the right hand of God the Father, where He continues to sanctify and preserve believers as the Mediator of a better covenant.
The Old Covenant had sacrificial priest by the law, but the continued need for any such sacrificial priests ended with Christ’s one sacrifice. “For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14)

 

[yankee_doodle]

for me once saved always saved means once you figure out the claims of religion are purely mythological you’re saved from all its paranoia, superstition, senseless rules, bigotry, etc. Ahhh, what a relief. Hallelujah!

 

[CWBetts]

for me once saved always saved means once you figure out the claims of religion are purely mythological you’re saved from all its paranoia, superstition, senseless rules, bigotry, etc. Ahhh, what a relief. Hallelujah!

This comment in itself is loaded with bigotry (the anti-Christian kind, which supposes that all Christians are simpletons), and further adds NOTHING to the discussion.

 

[CWBetts]

Christ came as the sacrificial Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world as John the Baptist said.
Christ finished His role as the sacrificial Redeemer on the Cross.
Christ paid the full price required to fulfill the perfect justice of God. Only Christ could do that as our High Priest.
As our High Priest, Christ offered Himself once “to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” (Hebrews 9:26)
This one Sacrifice does not continue or remain unfinished. The reason for this statement is that a “continued sacrifice” does not allow for a completed death of Christ, which is the requirement for any power in the New Testament that results from Christ’s death.
“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17)

Christ rose from the dead, never to die again as is the requirement of being “made a High Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.” (Hebrews 6:20)
Christ remains as our Mediator and High Priest in Heaven at the right hand of God the Father, where He continues to sanctify and preserve believers as the Mediator of a better covenant.
The Old Covenant had sacrificial priest by the law, but the continued need for any such sacrificial priests ended with Christ’s one sacrifice. “For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14)

As Christians, we have a responsiblity to adhere to the Moral Law! If OSAS is true (which it is not, it is a perversion of the true Gospel), then explain to me one thing: Why, oh why did Jesus indicate that salvation could be lost in the Parable of the Sower? According to OSAS there should only be the seed that fell on good earth (those that receive the Word and enter into the Kingdom) and those that fall on the path (those that do not receive the Word). What about the seed that falls on rocky ground (those that receive the Word, but the cares of the world draw them away)? OSAS completely disregards this. The same is true of the unjust steward. He goes to his Master and begs forgiveness, which he receives (he is saved), then when hi refuses to forgive his fellow, is cast into prison (Hell) after his initial pardon! He lost his salvation (and salvation is not a one time poof moment but that is a topic for another thread). The teachings of Jesus make no sense if OSAS is true. OSAS is obviously man-made, and I will take the teaching of my Lord over some man-made doctrine.

 

[Newbie2]

I was thinking…that OSAS may hold some water if one adds “…if you don’t screw up”.

OSASIFYDSU.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Christ came as the sacrificial Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world as John the Baptist said.
Christ finished His role as the sacrificial Redeemer on the Cross.
Christ paid the full price required to fulfill the perfect justice of God. Only Christ could do that as our High Priest.
As our High Priest, Christ offered Himself once “to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” (Hebrews 9:26)
This one Sacrifice does not continue or remain unfinished. The reason for this statement is that a “continued sacrifice” does not allow for a completed death of Christ, which is the requirement for any power in the New Testament that results from Christ’s death.
“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17)

Christ rose from the dead, never to die again as is the requirement of being “made a High Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.” (Hebrews 6:20)
Christ remains as our Mediator and High Priest in Heaven at the right hand of God the Father, where He continues to sanctify and preserve believers as the Mediator of a better covenant.
The Old Covenant had sacrificial priest by the law, but the continued need for any such sacrificial priests ended with Christ’s one sacrifice. “For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14)

Yes, we know. The Church has taught that for about 2000 years. The way to salvation cannot be closed now that it is opened. The needed grace is available to all who seek and accept it. It is through that grace that Christ sanctifies the souls of those open to receiving it and cooperating with it. Sanctified souls gain heaven.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[brkn1]

As Christians, we have a responsiblity to adhere to the Moral Law! If OSAS is true (which it is not, it is a perversion of the true Gospel), then explain to me one thing: Why, oh why did Jesus indicate that salvation could be lost in the Parable of the Sower? According to OSAS there should only be the seed that fell on good earth (those that receive the Word and enter into the Kingdom) and those that fall on the path (those that do not receive the Word). What about the seed that falls on rocky ground (those that receive the Word, but the cares of the world draw them away)? OSAS completely disregards this. The same is true of the unjust steward. He goes to his Master and begs forgiveness, which he receives (he is saved), then when hi refuses to forgive his fellow, is cast into prison (Hell) after his initial pardon! He lost his salvation (and salvation is not a one time poof moment but that is a topic for another thread). The teachings of Jesus make no sense if OSAS is true. OSAS is obviously man-made, and I will take the teaching of my Lord over some man-made doctrine.

The Parable of the Sower describes only type of person that hears the Gospel and “understands” it. The others might “receive” it, but they have no root or they have no good ground watered (by the Holy Spirit) to actually make the Word “take and grow”. The others were never saved and they showed this by not bearing any evidence (fruit) resulting from their salvation. I fail to see where you get the idea that the bad-ground persons were ever saved to begin with.

The same lack-of-fruit evidence applies to your second example. You say that the unjust steward is (he is saved), but the parable proves otherwise. The term “unjust” already disclaims any such salvation also.
Another problem with your using this parable to defend your position is that it violates the Catholic idea that we are the ones that must reject our salvation using our “free will”. The unjust steward sure did not want to give up his pardon in this parable. The Master’s pardon was not by grace either as the Bible speaks of. The Master took the pardon back, which makes the pardon gift a “conditional gift”. Such a gift is not a true gift, but a gift conditioned on our works. I suppose that sort of works-maintained gift is Catholic teaching though.

 

[brkn1]

I was thinking…that OSAS may hold some water if one adds “…if you don’t screw up”.

OSASIFYDSU.

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. (Hebrews 12:2)
A believer’s messing up will be taken care of by God, before it could cause that believer to lose his salvation.

 

[Ecoclimber]

The Parable of the Sower … The others were never saved and they showed this by not bearing any evidence (fruit) resulting from their salvation. I fail to see where you get the idea that the bad-ground persons were ever saved to begin with.

In Romans 7:1:6 Paul explains the marriage analogy and how this relationship of a woman to her husband bears upon our relationship to the law and Christ. “Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ.” Just as the woman in his example cannot be condemned by the law as an adulteress if her first husband dies, so we cannot be condemned by the law because our “old man of sin” has died.

In other words, we have become dead in the eyes of the law! At the time of our baptism, the old man of sin was put to death and buried in a watery grave (Romans 6:4). Because Jesus Christ died in our stead, and we have been buried with Him in baptism, the law regards us as having died. Therefore, the penalty for sin (Romans 6:23) has been paid, and the law no longer has power to condemn us to death for our sins.

Paul continues in verse 4, “. . . that you may be married to another, even to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.” In the analogy of the woman and her husbands, the first husband is the old man of sin to whom we were “married” prior to conversion. After the old man of sin died at baptism, we are now free to marry Christ. Just as He died and was resurrected, so our old man of sin has died, and we have been raised out of the watery grave of baptism a new man, empowered to bear righteous fruit in service to God.

In verse 5, Paul explains how that before we were converted, our sinful natures brought us under the death penalty. He shows that the carnal, sinful mind is so hostile toward God (Romans 8:7) that knowledge of God’s commandments actually stirs a desire in an unconverted person to commit even greater sins.

Finally, Paul gives the conclusion of the matter in verse 6. We have now been delivered from the power of the law. The law no longer has authority to condemn us to death because our old man of sin has died, and Christ has paid the penalty for sin in our stead. Now that God has given us His Holy Spirit, we now “serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.” In other words, we now keep not just the letter of the law, but we also keep God’s laws in their full spiritual intent and purpose as Jesus Christ magnified them throughout His ministry.

So we see that, far from being abolished, the laws of God are now even more binding on Christians. Because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, our sins have all been forgiven, and we now live transformed lives in which we keep God’s laws of love through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

We have indeed died in the eyes of the law, and our “life is hidden with Christ in God” (Colossians 3:3). As we grow and overcome, God’s laws become written on our hearts and minds until we finally are born into God’s Kingdom, where we will keep His laws of love perfectly for all eternity!

Now, we read the question: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” (Romans 6:1). You are now under grace—undeserved pardon!

You deserved only death. You didn’t earn forgiveness—pardon from the death penalty. You received it by grace through Jesus Christ.

Now, shall you continue in sin—that is, continue transgressing the Law? The answer is “God forbid” (Romans 6:2).

You were under the law, when the law stood over you, claiming its penalty. When Christ paid the penalty, and satisfied the claims of the law, you were no longer under the law, but under grace. Now does that mean you are not under obligation to obey the law—that you have license to sin—to break the law? Remember sin is the transgression of the law.

“What then? shall we sin”—that is, according to the Bible definition, shall we break the Law—“because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin”—breaking the law—“unto death”—penalty for disobedience to God’s Law—“or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:15-16.)

There it is! We must not return to rebellion against God’s inexorable Law of LOVE—His right way of life. If we do, we are again under the Law—again automatically sentenced to death! Jesus Christ did not die to give you license to continue in law-breaking. When you accept, by His grace, remission of sins, it is only for sins that are past! You cannot obtain in advance remission of all the lawlessness you might like to commit in the future.

Read that in your Bible: “Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:24-25).

We are justified only of sins that are past. We have remission only of sins that are past—not license to break the Law in the future.

Some religious people today teach that it is all right for Christians to go right on breaking the Law? Why do they say that grace means license to disobey God’s Law? No wonder God found it necessary, through Jude, to warn us to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints by Jesus Christ—for, as you’ll read in Jude 3-4, there are certain men crept in unawares—deceiving people—turning grace into license! They are the ones who accuse us of teaching “salvation by works.”

Would a governor pardon a man convicted of murder so he could continue murdering more and more people? God’s merciful pardon—His grace—is bestowed on us because we have repented, with a sincere desire to turn from our wicked ways of lawlessness. If we are willing to live, from here on, righteously, happily as we should have from the beginning, the merciful and loving God has been willing to give His Son Jesus Christ, who, in turn, was willing to give His life, to square up our past law-breaking—to wipe the slate clean, and give us, by His merciful grace, a fresh, clean start.

So, from here on, we must obey—unto righteousness! (Romans 6:16).

 

[Ecoclimber]

Continued from below

Yet you cannot, of your own strength, keep the spiritual Law spiritually.

You say “It is impossible to keep the Law.” Are they telling the truth? What does your Bible say?

Notice! Of the parents of John the Baptist, you will read: "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless" (Luke 1:6).

Why, if it is impossible, did Christ command that if we would enter into life, "keep the commandments"? (Matthew 19:17.) "He that saith, 'I know Him,' and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (I John 2:4).

Yet you cannot, alone of yourself, keep the Law spiritually! That is not a contradiction. You can keep the literal letter, but not the spirit. Let's make that plain.

God gives us His Hoy Spirit. Paul say "know you not that you are bodies are Temples of the Holy Spirit.  If the Holy Spirit of God actually dwells within you, then as God raised Christ from the dead, He shall also make immortal ("quicken" means energize—make eternally alive) your mortal body BY His Spirit dwelling in you (Romans 8:11). But (verse 9), unless His Spirit is actually IN YOU, you do not belong to Christ

God's Holy Spirit is His LIFE. It imparts His life to you!  the Holy Spirit is divine, spiritual love—the love of GOD flowing into you from God Almighty—through the living Christ! (Romans 5:5) Jesus explained how we should come to him, and drink in of His Spirit, like drinking in living water—and how this same Holy Spirit would flow, like a river of living water, on out from us (John 7:37-39).

God's Law is a law of love—love to God in reverence, worship and obedience—love to neighbor in service, kindness, sharing. It takes love to fulfill—to perform—the Law. You will read that in Romans 13:10.

But, remember?—we saw, in Romans 7:14, that this Law is a spiritual Law. . We were born with a capacity only for physical love both  phileo and eros in the Greek. The love of a parent for a child, a husband or wife for a mate, or even relatives, friends, neighbors. We also are born with capacity for envy, jealousy, hate.

But this spiritual Law can be fulfilled—performed—spiritually kept and obeyed—only by spiritual love! Agape love meaning unconditional love. You were not born with that kind of love. You do not have, naturally, the kind of love required to truly keep this great Spiritual Law!

You must go to God to obtain that kind of love. That is a love He gives you through the living Christ. That is His own love. It emanates directly from Him.

Now understand! True righteousness is keeping "all thy commandments" (Psalm 119:172). It is performing God's Spiritual law with the spiritual love which only GOD can supply.

You drink it in from Him.  It pours on out from you like rivers of living water. Water in a river flows in a certain direction, guided by the river bed or channel. GOD'S LAW is that river bed which guides the flow—the expression—the direction in which the divine love flows! God's Law is the way of perfect spiritual character—the very character of God.

So—the very spirit by which God imparts to you His life—His salvation—is also His own love which imparts to you His righteousness! It is no longer just you, in your own power and strength "keeping the commandments"—it is, spiritually speaking, the living Christ IN YOU, keeping His Father's Commandments—even as He kept them by this same divine love even while He was human here on earth!

Can you brag, or boast, then, about your righteousness? No—it is not your righteousness—it is God's! If Christ, by His grace, erased your guilty past, gave you access to God, and now pours forth into and through you the spiritual love that keeps the Law, this is not your righteousness, but God's.

And this is not your "works"! It is nothing you earn!

Some say since you “can’t keep the Law,” as they claim, God “imputes” Christ’s righteousness of 19 centuries ago to you—by sort of “kidding Himself” that you are righteous, while you are given license to still be a spiritual criminal breaking His Law! GOD does not impute to you something you do not have.
Far from this—the living Christ by His power makes us righteous! He imparts to us power to actually become righteous. It is His doing!

 

[Ecoclimber]

Continued from below

Yet you cannot, of your own strength, keep the spiritual Law spiritually.

You say “It is impossible to keep the Law.” Are they telling the truth? What does your Bible say?

Notice! Of the parents of John the Baptist, you will read: "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless" (Luke 1:6).

Why, if it is impossible, did Christ command that if we would enter into life, "keep the commandments"? (Matthew 19:17.) "He that saith, 'I know Him,' and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (I John 2:4).

Yet you cannot, alone of yourself, keep the Law spiritually! That is not a contradiction. You can keep the literal letter, but not the spirit. Let's make that plain.

God gives us His Hoy Spirit. Paul say "know you not that you are bodies are Temples of the Holy Spirit.  If the Holy Spirit of God actually dwells within you, then as God raised Christ from the dead, He shall also make immortal ("quicken" means energize—make eternally alive) your mortal body BY His Spirit dwelling in you (Romans 8:11). But (verse 9), unless His Spirit is actually IN YOU, you do not belong to Christ

God's Holy Spirit is His LIFE. It imparts His life to you!  the Holy Spirit is divine, spiritual love—the love of GOD flowing into you from God Almighty—through the living Christ! (Romans 5:5) Jesus explained how we should come to him, and drink in of His Spirit, like drinking in living water—and how this same Holy Spirit would flow, like a river of living water, on out from us (John 7:37-39).

God's Law is a law of love—love to God in reverence, worship and obedience—love to neighbor in service, kindness, sharing. It takes love to fulfill—to perform—the Law. You will read that in Romans 13:10.

But, remember?—we saw, in Romans 7:14, that this Law is a spiritual Law. . We were born with a capacity only for physical love both  phileo and eros in the Greek. The love of a parent for a child, a husband or wife for a mate, or even relatives, friends, neighbors. We also are born with capacity for envy, jealousy, hate.

But this spiritual Law can be fulfilled—performed—spiritually kept and obeyed—only by spiritual love! Agape love meaning unconditional love. You were not born with that kind of love. You do not have, naturally, the kind of love required to truly keep this great Spiritual Law!

You must go to God to obtain that kind of love. That is a love He gives you through the living Christ. That is His own love. It emanates directly from Him.

Now understand! True righteousness is keeping "all thy commandments" (Psalm 119:172). It is performing God's Spiritual law with the spiritual love which only GOD can supply.

You drink it in from Him.  It pours on out from you like rivers of living water. Water in a river flows in a certain direction, guided by the river bed or channel. GOD'S LAW is that river bed which guides the flow—the expression—the direction in which the divine love flows! God's Law is the way of perfect spiritual character—the very character of God.

So—the very spirit by which God imparts to you His life—His salvation—is also His own love which imparts to you His righteousness! It is no longer just you, in your own power and strength "keeping the commandments"—it is, spiritually speaking, the living Christ IN YOU, keeping His Father's Commandments—even as He kept them by this same divine love even while He was human here on earth!

Can you brag, or boast, then, about your righteousness? No—it is not your righteousness—it is God's! If Christ, by His grace, erased your guilty past, gave you access to God, and now pours forth into and through you the spiritual love that keeps the Law, this is not your righteousness, but God's.

And this is not your "works"! It is nothing you earn!

Some say since you “can’t keep the Law,” as they claim, God “imputes” Christ’s righteousness of 19 centuries ago to you—by sort of “kidding Himself” that you are righteous, while you are given license to still be a spiritual criminal breaking His Law! GOD does not impute to you something you do not have.

Far from this—the living Christ by His power makes us righteous! He imparts to us power to actually become righteous. It is His doing!

 

[authenticity]

Where did you get your information on “Total Depravity”, Authenticity? Have you actually read the Canons of Dordt? Or are you just repeating a popular misconception among Catholics? The Synod of Dordt 1618 (nothing directly to do with Calvin) was a response to the Remonstronce of 1610. TULIP was a part of articals or canons of faith formed by the Dutch Church as a response to followers of Arminius who were causing a theological stir. Total Depravity is perhaps a bad title for the doctrine it represents, but what it says is only that man is unable to save himself. It does not mean that man is only evil. Does anyone seriosly disagree with this?

I could point you to some references if you like. I have actually read the Canons of Dordt. I am not repeating a misconception of Catholics, just my conception as a Catholic. TULIP is essentially Calvinism, even if it was clarified later in Reformation history.

What my contention is with this doctrine is that a person is led to believe that they can not choose to stop sinning because they believe sinning is their essential nature. Something is being left out, mainly a conscience. To use an example, let’s say a person has the choice of eating a bowl of ice cream and some liver. For our example let’s say this person loves ice cream and hates liver. Given a free choice, we would assume that this person would always choose the ice cream. But if that were his only two choices, ever, he would be able to reason that continuing to always choose ice cream is not to his advantage. The ability to reason is the image of God within each of us. The depravity doctrine leads people to think that unless God steps in and removes the ice cream, the person cannot stop eating it. This leads to the idea that ice cream itself is evil.

Instead of depravity, we have the long lost virtue of prudence. That does come by the Grace of God and it is through faith in Christ. But what those terms mean is different because of this doctrine.

 

[CWBetts]

The Parable of the Sower describes only type of person that hears the Gospel and “understands” it. The others might “receive” it, but they have no root or they have no good ground watered (by the Holy Spirit) to actually make the Word “take and grow”. The others were never saved and they showed this by not bearing any evidence (fruit) resulting from their salvation. I fail to see where you get the idea that the bad-ground persons were ever saved to begin with.

The same lack-of-fruit evidence applies to your second example. You say that the unjust steward is (he is saved), but the parable proves otherwise. The term “unjust” already disclaims any such salvation also.
Another problem with your using this parable to defend your position is that it violates the Catholic idea that we are the ones that must reject our salvation using our “free will”. The unjust steward sure did not want to give up his pardon in this parable. The Master’s pardon was not by grace either as the Bible speaks of. The Master took the pardon back, which makes the pardon gift a “conditional gift”. Such a gift is not a true gift, but a gift conditioned on our works. I suppose that sort of works-maintained gift is Catholic teaching though.

This explanation is a perfect example of dishonest apologetics. You hav added information that does not exist is Scripture (or anywhere else for that matter) as a way to make your theology fit. We do not force Scripture and Tradition to fit theology, but change theology to match the precedents set by Scripture and Tradition.

 

[gearhead]

As Christians, we have a responsiblity to adhere to the Moral Law! If OSAS is true (which it is not, it is a perversion of the true Gospel), then explain to me one thing: Why, oh why did Jesus indicate that salvation could be lost in the Parable of the Sower? According to OSAS there should only be the seed that fell on good earth (those that receive the Word and enter into the Kingdom) and those that fall on the path (those that do not receive the Word). What about the seed that falls on rocky ground (those that receive the Word, but the cares of the world draw them away)? OSAS completely disregards this. The same is true of the unjust steward. He goes to his Master and begs forgiveness, which he receives (he is saved), then when hi refuses to forgive his fellow, is cast into prison (Hell) after his initial pardon! He lost his salvation (and salvation is not a one time poof moment but that is a topic for another thread). The teachings of Jesus make no sense if OSAS is true. OSAS is obviously man-made, and I will take the teaching of my Lord over some man-made doctrine.

Personally, I see a strong parallel between “once saved, always saved” and Catholic doctrine in some ways. Take Holy Orders: a person becomes a priest by the grace of God, and it’s on the basis of that grace and not on the person’s own human merits that that status is maintained, right?

Compare that to “once saved always saved”: a person becomes saved by the grace of God, and it’s on the basis of that grace and not on the person’s own human merits that this status is maintainted.

The two positions are remarkably similar, yet one of them is fundamental Catholic doctrine (in fact, to delcare otherwise is heresy), and the other one is rejected and mocked here.

To an outside observer like me, I really don’t see the distinction between the two rationalizations.

 

[CWBetts]

Personally, I see a strong parallel between “once saved, always saved” and Catholic doctrine in some ways. Take Holy Orders: a person becomes a priest by the grace of God, and it’s on the basis of that grace and not on the person’s own human merits that that status is maintained, right?

Compare that to “once saved always saved”: a person becomes saved by the grace of God, and it’s on the basis of that grace and not on the person’s own human merits that this status is maintainted.

The two positions are remarkably similar, yet one of them is fundamental Catholic doctrine (in fact, to delcare otherwise is heresy), and the other one is rejected and mocked here.

To an outside observer like me, I really don’t see the distinction between the two rationalizations.

A priest can be defrocked, though it is intended to be a lifelong commitment. Once you convert it should be a lifelong commitment, but that can be removed as well.

 

[gearhead]

A priest can be defrocked, though it is intended to be a lifelong commitment.

And even though the Church has revoked the priest’s permission to practice, they’re still priests, aren’t they? Sacraments performed by defrocked priest may not be licit, but they are still considered valid, aren’t they? The priest is still a priest, no?

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

And even though the Church has revoked the priest’s permission to practice, they’re still priests, aren’t they? Sacraments performed by defrocked priest may not be licit, but they are still considered valid, aren’t they? The priest is still a priest, no?

The attributes disciplines pertinent to the Sacrament of Holy Orders are one thing. Salvation through justification and sanctification is another. Similarities between the two are as they may be, and the attribute of one does not in and of itself dictate the attribute of the other.

This, in logic, is an example of inappropriate parallelism, and it demonstrates nothing.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Bill_Pick]

***Last week, a 48 yr old man opened fire in a LA Fitness gym, in Pittsburgh, not too far from where my family and I moved from. He also then turned the gun on himself, taking his own life. In reading some of the news articles, it was mentioned that he belonged at one time to a non-denom church, where they taught that once a person is saved, he/she is always saved, and their salvation is never lost. He actually commented on that in his online blog/diary, leading up to the killings.

The interesting thing to note also, was that when questioned, the pastor of that church said…‘we don’t pray for dead people, only the living. [George] will be accountable before God, only God can judge him. But, we believe he is in heaven, because once a person is saved, they are always saved.’

I know what it means, but what I’m hopeful this thread will do, is help me to understand if this means that a person can pretty much do anything he/she pleases, and there are no eternal consequences? Now, perhaps, George Sodini, the shooter, is in purgatory…perhaps, heaven…afterall, God is merficul beyond measure. Only He can decide. And this man was very ill, mentally. But, that being said…how can the pastor from his church make such a statement, about ‘knowing’ that George is in heaven. It seems like some denominations don’t believe in hell, is that possible? Clearly, Jesus spoke of hell in the Bible.

So, is the OSAS doctrine, basically saying that if you believe Christ as your Savior, then you will never see hell? Does it mean that if someone doesn’t believe in Christ, that is the only way someone MIGHT go to hell?

Hoping for a better understanding of what this mean…thank you! ***

Its hard to explain OSAS because it is a flase teaching of Calvin started in the 1400 or 1500 year after the reforum. They say after you are Born again you will always be saved and aways get in to heaven. and yes if you do not believe in Christ you will go to hell…

 

[whatevergirl]

Its hard to explain OSAS because it is a flase teaching of Calvin started in the 1400 or 1500 year after the reforum. They say after you are Born again you will always be saved and aways get in to heaven. and yes if you do not believe in Christ you will go to hell…

Ok, thank you. What spurred the false teaching, though, I wonder…