Once saved, always saved--please help me understand this

[gearhead]

Ok, thank you. What spurred the false teaching, though, I wonder…

AFAIK, the rationale is that since nobody’s salvation is justified on their own merits, loss of salvation can’t be justified on a person’s own merits (or lack of them) either.

Also, certain ideas about the sovereignty of God come into it as well: I think the idea is that once God does something, humans can’t “undo” it.

 

[brkn1]

This explanation is a perfect example of dishonest apologetics. You hav added information that does not exist is Scripture (or anywhere else for that matter) as a way to make your theology fit. We do not force Scripture and Tradition to fit theology, but change theology to match the precedents set by Scripture and Tradition.

Perhaps you could be more specific with your accusations, instead of continuing your habit of making unsupported generalizations.

 

[brkn1]

and yes if you do not believe in Christ you will go to hell…

So…I guess you find the need to believe in Christ as unnecessary for salvation?

 

[whatevergirl]

AFAIK, the rationale is that since nobody’s salvation is justified on their own merits, loss of salvation can’t be justified on a person’s own merits (or lack of them) either.

Also, certain ideas about the sovereignty of God come into it as well: I think the idea is that once God does something, humans can’t “undo” it.

*Hi gearhead–

That is fascinating…if that is what actually spurred on the OSAS philosophy. The problem with the whole thing though is people leave out the word ‘hope.’ Hope of salvation was gained for us by Christ…I think that many feel Jesus’ death on the cross was a free pass for everyone into heaven. No, it was what was needed to reconcile mankind with God…I heard something very interesting in last week’s homily…the priest made a point of saying…someone can give you a gift, it therefore is free to you. But, you can exchange the gift for something else, or take it back and get money in return. No one forces anyone to keep a free gift.

Likewise is Jesus’ gift of sacrificing His life for us. Many do reject the gift. I thought that was an interesting way of viewing it. Were you ever Catholic? *

 

[whatevergirl]

So…I guess you find the need to believe in Christ as unnecessary for salvation?

 

[Bill_Pick]

This is an older thread from CAF on Judas–I didn’t think that there was any firm Scripture on if Judas is in hell. The Church doesn’t declare it…and Judas seemed remorseful…here’s the thread for review:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=157632

If you ask a OSAS they will say Judas was

 

[Bill_Pick]

If you ask a OSAS they will say Judas was saved

 

[CWBetts]

The Parable of the Sower describes only type of person that hears the Gospel and “understands” it. The others might “receive” it, but they have no root or they have no good ground watered (by the Holy Spirit) to actually make the Word “take and grow”. The others were never saved and they showed this by not bearing any evidence (fruit) resulting from their salvation. I fail to see where you get the idea that the bad-ground persons were ever saved to begin with.

The same lack-of-fruit evidence applies to your second example. You say that the unjust steward is (he is saved), but the parable proves otherwise. The term “unjust” already disclaims any such salvation also.
Another problem with your using this parable to defend your position is that it violates the Catholic idea that we are the ones that must reject our salvation using our “free will”. The unjust steward sure did not want to give up his pardon in this parable. The Master’s pardon was not by grace either as the Bible speaks of. The Master took the pardon back, which makes the pardon gift a “conditional gift”. Such a gift is not a true gift, but a gift conditioned on our works. I suppose that sort of works-maintained gift is Catholic teaching though.

A works maintained gift is a Biblical teaching. Are you familiar with Epesians chapter 2? I am sure you quote verses 8 and 9 contantly, but guess what? Keep reading. We are saved in order to do good works. How about the woman caught in adultry? What does Jesus say? “Go and sin no more” Let us not forget James. In the second chapter what does he say? Your faith alone cannot save you! Judas Iscariot, who had followed Jesus as one of the Apostles, are you saying he was never saved? According to Jeremiah the human heart cannot be known, but you think you can tell me what people are “really saved” based on outward actions? That sounds a little like the Pharisees if you ask me. OSAS is contrary to Biblical teaching for even more reaons. One notable problem is the idea of the Seven Deadly Sins. OSAS breeds pride “I know I ma gong to heaven, but you cant be beacuse you are a dirty sinner” Also goes againt the concept of reserving judgement for God. I know every argument for OSAS, because I used to buy it. BUt you know what there is not a single Scripture that supports it, unless you take it out of cintext to try and make it fit.

 

[Newbie2]

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. (Hebrews 12:2)
A believer’s messing up will be taken care of by God, before it could cause that believer to lose his salvation.

So what you’re saying is that when one is “saved” that they lose their free will? By “messing up”, I mean apostasy. Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that.

 

[yankee_doodle]

This comment in itself is loaded with bigotry (the anti-Christian kind, which supposes that all Christians are simpletons), and further adds NOTHING to the discussion.

It might have sounded like that (perhaps an apology is owed on my part) … but it’s not how I feel. I have no ill will toward theists, nor do I think all theists are stupid or simpletons. However, I do think religion is clearly false (doesn’t mean I don’t believe in the possibility of a creator of sorts, though I don’t pretend to imagine what form it might take, nor does it mean I reject all Christian morals or philosophy).

 

[gearhead]

That is fascinating…if that is what actually spurred on the OSAS philosophy. The problem with the whole thing though is people leave out the word ‘hope.’ Hope of salvation was gained for us by Christ…I think that many feel Jesus’ death on the cross was a free pass for everyone into heaven. No, it was what was needed to reconcile mankind with God…I heard something very interesting in last week’s homily…the priest made a point of saying…someone can give you a gift, it therefore is free to you. But, you can exchange the gift for something else, or take it back and get money in return. No one forces anyone to keep a free gift.

Likewise is Jesus’ gift of sacrificing His life for us. Many do reject the gift. I thought that was an interesting way of viewing it.

Sounds interesting to me, too, but it’s rejected by some theologies; most “once saved always saved” theologies are based in Calvinism; if you Google it, you may find more about what they believe and why. Personally, I think it’s a cruel set of doctrines that started with certain ideas about God and took them as far as they could caring only about logical consistency and not at all about compassion or mercy.

Were you ever Catholic?

Nope. My wife’s Catholic, but I was raised generally irreligiously with some Baptist influence from my Grandmother.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Those relying on carnal works of baptism, altar calls, etc, to become justified or saved before God are fooling themselves. Salvation is not by our own works; it is strictly the “Work of God” as Jesus explained to those asking how they could do the works of salvation.

Baptism is a “carnal work”?

Kyrie eleison. Now I’ve heard everything.

Love is Patient

 

[CWBetts]

It might have sounded like that (perhaps an apology is owed on my part) … but it’s not how I feel. I have no ill will toward theists, nor do I think all theists are stupid or simpletons. However, I do think religion is clearly false (doesn’t mean I don’t believe in the possibility of a creator of sorts, though I don’t pretend to imagine what form it might take, nor does it mean I reject all Christian morals or philosophy).

If you reject CHristian morals and philosophy, then you must really detest western society

 

[brkn1]

Baptism is a “carnal work”?

Kyrie eleison. Now I’ve heard everything.

Love is Patient

If you believe that baptism causes the person being baptized to be born again, then you believe that (carnal or acts of the flesh) man’s ritual works can over-ride the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit in causing a person to be born again. See (John 3:6,8).

 

[brkn1]

A works maintained gift is a Biblical teaching. Are you familiar with Epesians chapter 2? I am sure you quote verses 8 and 9 contantly, but guess what? Keep reading. We are saved in order to do good works. How about the woman caught in adultry? What does Jesus say? “Go and sin no more” Let us not forget James. In the second chapter what does he say? Your faith alone cannot save you! Judas Iscariot, who had followed Jesus as one of the Apostles, are you saying he was never saved? According to Jeremiah the human heart cannot be known, but you think you can tell me what people are “really saved” based on outward actions? That sounds a little like the Pharisees if you ask me. OSAS is contrary to Biblical teaching for even more reaons. One notable problem is the idea of the Seven Deadly Sins. OSAS breeds pride “I know I ma gong to heaven, but you cant be beacuse you are a dirty sinner” Also goes againt the concept of reserving judgement for God. I know every argument for OSAS, because I used to buy it. BUt you know what there is not a single Scripture that supports it, unless you take it out of cintext to try and make it fit.

“We are saved in order to do good works.” does not mean the same thing as “We are saved BY good works.”
Judas was called the son of perdition by Jesus. How could Judas be considered saved, when Jesus even called him a devil.
James spoke of faith that is evident to man by the resulting works of that faith. What is evident to man is not the same as what God sees in a man’s heart. A person that seems wonderful to us by his “good works” might be the biggest hypocrite ever in God’s eyes. You seem to be making stuff up as you accuse me of such hypocrisy.
Your claim of knowing every argument for OSAS seems a bit prideful also.

 

[brkn1]

The law no longer has authority to condemn us to death because our old man of sin has died, and Christ has paid the penalty for sin in our stead.
. Because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, our sins have all been forgiven, and we now live transformed lives in which we keep God’s laws of love through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

You deserved only death. You didn’t earn forgiveness—pardon from the death penalty. You received it by grace through Jesus Christ.

We are justified only of sins that are past. We have remission only of sins that are past—not license to break the Law in the future.

.

I have condensed your post here to point out a serious problem with your theology.

If Christ’s attoning Sacrifice only pays for our sins of the past, then a saved person would become even more at risk of losing salvation in the future.
Should we sin again, it would be impossible to be renewed again unto repentance. (Hebrews 6:4)
Christ only died once and that one Sacrifice had to do the complete job.

 

[whatevergirl]

If you believe that baptism causes the person being baptized to be born again, then you believe that (carnal or acts of the flesh) man’s ritual works can over-ride the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit in causing a person to be born again. See (John 3:6,8).

Baptism is a big component of the Christian faith…a huge component. If it weren’t, Jesus wouldn’t have been baptized Himself.

 

[whatevergirl]

****Correction…lol Jesus was baptized, therefore this is a big component of our faith. If Jesus was baptized, then obviously this is more than a man-made ritual…much more. It is a major component of our faith.

Scratch the backwards way I said it above. ****

 

[Love_is_Patient]

If you believe that baptism causes the person being baptized to be born again, then you believe that (carnal or acts of the flesh) man’s ritual works can over-ride the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit in causing a person to be born again. See (John 3:6,8).

Only if I believed that baptism was MY act and not God’s.

Fortunately, Catholics believe that baptism is ultimately the work of God.

Love is Patient

 

[yankee_doodle]

If you reject CHristian morals and philosophy, then you must really detest western society

Have you ever bothered to study our greatest founding fathers. Take Thomas Jefferson, an avowed deist (who believed in the obscure concept of a grand architect, in a sort of Masonic sense, but did not believe in any of the supernatural events depicted in the bible, including the resurrection of Jesus Christ). Indeed while Jefferson did view Jesus as perhaps the most altruistic man in history … that’s where his admiration ended (he did not worship Jesus as a god). In fact he ripped out all the pages of the bible that contained references to supernatural events, and compiled what’s referred to as the Jeffersonian bible (a compilation of about 40 pages depicting the virtues of Christ).

Indeed James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine were all well known deists (in fact Paine published a treatise that helped popularize deism, “The Age of Reason”). It’s also thought that Benjamin Franklin was a deist.

We can also talk about the Enlightenment Era in European history, which culminated with our Declaration of Independence. What we know of today as western civilization is the result of slowly eroding the power of your church and the various monarchs, through the growth of ideas such as freedom, democracy, and reason. Indeed it was the enlightenment, which promulgated these ideas. So before you try and tell me about western civilization, why don’t you learn about it first?