Thanks for your thoughts Gearhead. Sometimes it takes an outside observer to see the big picture. Indeed, if God elected some from before the foundation of the world can they frustrate God’s sovereignty and unelect themselves? We also need to see that not everyone in the church is elect. Jesus said the tares and the wheat will both grow together and you may not know who is the real until its time to examine the fruit.
You may have read the canons but i think you didn’t understand. As i said, Depravity does NOT mean that man is evil. It does Not deny man’s freedom of choise. It does explain that man has lost his liberty, that is the liberty to choose God. This idea did not come from Calvin, but from Augustine and the Bible. It explains Jn. 6:44 “No one can come to me except the Father draw him.” I have to ask again, do you deny the word of Jesus that man can’t save himself?
The jewish high council wanted to kill Jesus, but knew that they didn’t have the authority to execute anyone, so they had to convince the Romans to do it! Jesus had to die on the Cross, it was prophesied in the Old Testament. So God allowed Judas to be part of the plan, becoming a disciple. But then Satan enterd into him, and he betrayed Christ much to the delight of Satan. If Satan had only known what he started by allowing Christ to be crucified
And, there are some non-denominational, and Protestant churches, who preach that you can lose your salvation. I am still not clear on this subject, because there is not enough evidence! Our church teaches that while you cannot lose your salvation, you can walk away from your faith. You can start believing that there is more to your salvation, than Jesus! When I read 1Corinthians 3:13-15(which catholics base their argument for purgatory on), it almost sounds like that the fire will burn away the impurities(sins perhaps?), and the person will still be saved. If anone says that sin after being saved, can cause you to lose your salvation, then these people do not understand the power of grace!
While some of our founding fathers had this country’s best interest in mind, some, by their own guise had other things in mind. Many were conforming to types of New Age rubish. So one can argue all they want, but in the end it comes to you and God. As plain and simple as it is it’s still the truth.:bible1:
Telling someone, perhaps anew believer, that he/she must do so many works, in order to retain their salvation, could induce anxiety, doubt and a penchant to overdo! There is nothing we can do to make God love us more, and nothing we can do to make Him love us less:thumbsup: Let me ask you this, do you cwbetts, believe that God loves you more, because you ARE, or because you DO? We were indeed saved by God, to do the good works, that He has laid out for us. But when we ourselves, or any one else becomes obsessed with doing good works to satisfy God, we are missing the point! Because we hve faith and are saved by His incredible grace, we are inspired(or should be) to do good works for Him. I don’t believe that He is keeping a scorecard, comparing you with your neighbor, or your friends; but you will be held accountable for everything you do, or don’t do, this is true. Especially if it is something that God has chosen for you to do! I find myself, at this point in my Christian walk, more attuned to His voice, and going forth in humble service to Him! As for OSAS, I tend to believe that it is an individual issue, and one should pray about it and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and discernment(Yes, we all have direct access to the Holy Spirit). I mean, covered by the Blood of Christ one day, the Blood wiped off the next
Christ died once for al, and ALL of the sins of the world, past present and future, were eradicated! Do we still sin, of course; we didn’t lose our sinful nature, we were just freed from the slavery of sin and the law!***Last week, a 48 yr old man opened fire in a LA Fitness gym, in Pittsburgh, not too far from where my family and I moved from. He also then turned the gun on himself, taking his own life. In reading some of the news articles, it was mentioned that he belonged at one time to a non-denom church, where they taught that once a person is saved, he/she is always saved, and their salvation is never lost. He actually commented on that in his online blog/diary, leading up to the killings.
It is an awful thing that happened! I remember hearing about it on the news. ***
The interesting thing to note also, was that when questioned, the pastor of that church said…‘we don’t pray for dead people, only the living. [George] will be accountable before God, only God can judge him. But, we believe he is in heaven, because once a person is saved, they are always saved.’
I was raised Baptist and was taught that Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine from early on. In order to “become” saved - there is a prayer that must be said in a person’s own words which goes something like “Dear Jesus, I am sorry for all of my sins. Please forgive me. Please come into my heart and save me. Amen” Becoming “saved” or becoming a Christian in their minds ironically has nothing at all with being Baptized. Many “saved” people who consider themselves “Christian” have never been Baptized and some don’t ever want to be - after all to them it’s just a symbol of what already happened in their life. Who has time for a meaningless outward symbol - this is the attitude I’ve heard from many of my non-Catholic “Christian” friends and relatives & even my own Sunday School teacher when I was in the 5th grade!
I know what it means, but what I’m hopeful this thread will do, is help me to understand if this means that a person can pretty much do anything he/she pleases, and there are no eternal consequences?
Yes, according to the Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine ANYONE who has said their own version of the “Sinner’s Prayer” will go to Heaven…even if in the future, they change their minds and become Satanists and don’t want to go to Heaven. The belief is contrary to the Free Will Christ has given us. The Pastor’s comment is completely consistent with their belief and teaching of OSAS.
On a side note: There is a small faction of people that teach/belief OSAS that believe that when some who had been Saved and then went out an killed someone or some other horrible crime they will actually say that that person was never really saved to begin with, that they were just pretending to be saved, but never really were.
As Catholics, We are to pray for Everyone who has died. We are taught to believe that everyone who passes away is in Purgatory as only God know those who are actually in Hell - we are never to presume that anyone went to Hell, including people like Judas and Hitler. This is because we believe in the overwhelming Mercy of God and that He desires ALL to be Saved. He came to Earth to die for Everyone, not just some. Although, it is also taught that many people will find themselves in Hell, we are never to speculate on who those unfortunate ones are. The only people that Catholics no longer believe to be in Purgatory are those who the Church, through the Holy Spirit, has specifically recognized as a “Saint” as they are now in Heaven.
So, is the OSAS doctrine, basically saying that if you believe Christ as your Savior, then you will never see hell? Does it mean that if someone doesn’t believe in Christ, that is the only way someone MIGHT go to hell?
According to their theology, Anyone who has not specifically prayed the “Sinner’s Prayer” will go to Hell and Anyone who has said the “Sinner’s Prayer” and meant it at the time they prayed it (and they can only pray it once) they will be Saved regardless of anything else they do in this life including if they change their mind and decide that they’d rather Not be Saved - nothing else matters, they will remain saved.
It really is a bizzare theology. I was raised believing it to be true and accepted it as such, until I really thought about it and experienced some of it’s consequences of it. I am curious as to the history of this teaching - can anyone hear shed any light on that? Where did it come from? Reading the Jesus’ own words in the New Testament, it certainly doesn’t come from the Bible!
Hoping for a better understanding of what this mean…thank you!
It is better to tell the truth (faith without works is dead) than the lie of OSAS! And we don’t “do good works to satisfy God”! I am so surprised that a "non-denominational protestant would misrepresent Catholicism in such a way!CW: I’m not sure you should put out the idea that a works maintained gift is Biblical, especially since you catholics abhor Soa Scriptura
If our faith is real, works will follow, and I am not speaking of the Sacraments, because the Sacraments are not our work for God, but allowing God to work through us. The simple fact is that saying “I’m sorry Jesus! Save me!” is nor sure ticket to Heaven. It is merely the first step on a long and perilous journey.I was misled (lied to) by fundamentalists for years. I know their arguments.
This is a classic case of truncating the historic teachings of the Church to suit an innovation - in this case, OSAS.
from the catechism