Once Saved Always Saved - The Deadly Doctrine

[lak611]

Which Protestant authoritatively pronounced this?

Jeremy

The Protestants do not need to. To be a Christian, one must believe in the Trinity. Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox Christians all do. Anybody else who does not is not a Christian. Mormons are not Christians either.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Its true that not all Protestants believe in OSAS, but you have to admit that -most- of them do.

I don’t know if most do. Around here, the big divide is between Southern Baptists (who do) and other Baptists, like the General Baptists, who don’t. But the Southern Baptists are the biggest single protestant congregation in the U.S., so they loom large.

I am not sure it is correct to say that JWs aren’t Protestant or Christian, though they certainly aren’t Christian in the sense most Christians think of that. They believe Jesus was the Archangel Michael, and a creature of God; not God. So, if believing that Jesus is God is the outer limit of Christian belief, then they would not be Christian. If any kind of belief in the biblical Jesus at all is the outer limit, then they are. My own working definition of “Protestant” is “One who believes in the salvific mission of Jesus Christ in some sense, but which protests a few or many of the other beliefs of the Catholic Church-to know more you must inquire”. In that sense, then, JWs are Protestants.

 

[Ridgerunner]

And Southern Baptists believe OSAS absolutely literally. Once you’re saved, it does not matter at all what you do, you’re still saved.

 

[lak611]

I am not sure it is correct to say that JWs aren’t Protestant or Christian, though they certainly aren’t Christian in the sense most Christians think of that. They believe Jesus was the Archangel Michael, and a creature of God; not God. So, if believing that Jesus is God is the outer limit of Christian belief, then they would not be Christian.

From Wikipedia: “A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, referred to as the Christ. Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God, who lived a life befitting that of the creator of the universe, free of sin and full of love, who at the end of his earthly life was crucified, and then on the third day, rose from the dead, and later ascended into heaven.” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian. So if they don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they are NOT Christians.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

What exactly does “Once Saved Always Saved” mean, what are the implications for the Christian, and is this teaching supported by Scripture?

I. The Protestant ViewA. Protestant Beliefs

· Accept Jesus Christ into your heart
· Say the “sinner’s prayer” and confess with your lips
· You only need to believe in Jesus (John 3:16)
· You have a one way ticket to heaven; absolutely nothing can derail the train; heaven is guaranteed
· It is a corollary to “Faith Alone”
· ”Absolute assurance” - Since works do not gain your salvation, works cannot cause you to lose your salvation. There is nothing you can DO to lose salvation including sinning.
· You are “hid” with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3) God can’t see YOU and YOUR sin anymore. He can only see Christ.
· “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:1-2)

B. One Protestant sums up the doctrine of OSAS this way:

“However, it is not merely from the Levitical laws that we were discharged, but also from the moral ones. God only has one law. Does that mean we can sin freely? No, for God hates sin, and if we love God, we will live according to His commandments. However, it does mean that no sin will be held against us once we receive Christ, for upon receiving Christ we are discharged from the very law against which our sins would have been reckoned.” (found on the Internet)

​

+++

Lest I be charged with setting up a straw man, I ask others to judge whether this is a fair explanation of OSAS before I go any further. Thanks.

I am not going to be my prototypical, protagonist or in your opinion antagonist self, and get to involved in this thread, but is it fun arguing whether one is once saved or one is always saved, when most of the people on this forum would not be so confident or prideful that they are even saved the first time? little lone losing that salvation or not depending on your point of view?
What I am saying is, it seems this argument at this place (CAF) seems fruitless, seeing as from a Catholic point of view, saying me or you are or are not gonna be saved once twice or always is considered judging each other. See what my point is?

 

[jemfinch]

The Protestants do not need to. To be a Christian, one must believe in the Trinity.

Again, which Protestant authoritatively decreed this? I’ve read the Bible, and I don’t remember reading, “To be a Christian, one must believe in the Trinity.” The very Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura led the Jehovah’s Witnesses to reject the Trinity, so how can it be said (at least from a Protestant perspective) that they’re not Protestants?

(I know what the Church requires of people in order to call them “Christian,” but I’m pointing out that Protestants have no objective basis upon which to say one person is a Christian or another person isn’t. Especially OSAS belivers, who seem either not to consider “loving Jesus” a requirement of being “saved,” or who have forgotten that Christ Himself said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”)

Jeremy

 

[Church_Militant]

Having been a deacon in an Assembly of God church I know that they do not teach OSAS and get into some pretty heated discussions with Southern Baptists with regard to it, so no, not all n-C Christians believe this and most are not articulate enough to really get into it as a doctrine.

If told someone is Armenian they’d think you meant they were from somewhere overseas…

One of the very best (FREE MP3) Bible studies on OSAS is Once Saved, Always Saved by John Martignoni and he has his notes HERE.

I don’t think that most n-C Christians (as MfM just showed in his post) even understand what we Catholics believe even though (IMO) the Catholic belief is far better supported not only by specific passages of the New Testament but also by the whole context of soteriological discourse within the New Testament. IOW, if one reads the entire New Testament you come away with the same beliefs that the Catholic Church has taught for 2,000 years.

I disagree with MfM (Big surprise there! ) that the discussion is fruitless because I think OSAS is like a child’s security blanket that a mature believer rejects as they grow in wisdom, knowledege , and understanding of the Word of God. I guess I would define it as a “comfort doctrine”, but IMO a false comfort and security.

One of the hardest things for Catholics to get a grip on is when believers/churches who tell us they are “Bible-only Christians” believe this based on what the New Testament says.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[LaSalle]

"Christ committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: “Whatever has he been doing with her?” Secondly, with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom he dismissed so lightly. Thus even Christ, who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died."

(D. Martin Luthers Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe [Hermann Bohlau Verlag, 1893], vol. 2, no. 1472, April 7 - May 1, 1532, p. 33)

“Be a sinner and sin on bravely*, but have stronger faith and rejoice in Christ, who is the victor of sin, death, and the world. Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice: sin must be committed*. To you it ought to be sufficient that you acknowledge the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world, the sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ], even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders.”

(Enders, “Briefwechsel”, III, 208).

Martin Luther was indeed a very strange man.

THE Martin Luther, said that?! Really?!

 

[jay29]

THE Martin Luther, said that?! Really?!

Yep…he had a wicked vulgar mouth as we all know.

 

[Mickey]

How would you respond to a Protestant who cites Jeremiah 32:40 as conclusive proof of OSAS:

"I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

He more or less argues that this proves that a genuine Christian cannot turn away from God, fail to persevere, and hence lose their salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

Cherry picking this verse from the Old Testament to conclusively prove the validity of OSAS seems to be a very weak defense of this calvinistic doctrine. However, something stands out to me. There is a translation issue here. The Scripture verse used above states, “so that they will not turn away from me.” It seems that the New King James version is being used.
Here are some other versions:

I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them; and I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. RSV

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, and will not cease to do them good: and I will give my fear in their heart, that they may not revolt from me. Douay-Rheims

I will make with them an eternal covenant, never to cease doing good to them; into their hearts I will put the fear of me, that they may never depart from me. NAB

Is it will not–or may not?

Just some food for thought.

 

[Mickey]

Cherry picking this verse from the Old Testament to conclusively prove the validity of OSAS seems to be a very weak defense of this calvinistic doctrine. However, something stands out to me. There is a translation issue here. The Scripture verse used above states, “so that they will not turn away from me.” It seems that the New King James version is being used here. Here are some other versions:

I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them; and I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. RSV

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, and will not cease to do them good: and I will give my fear in their heart, that they may not revolt from me. Douay-Rheims

I will make with them an eternal covenant, never to cease doing good to them; into their hearts I will put the fear of me, that they may never depart from me. NAB

Is it will not–or may not?

Just some food for thought.

 

[seremina]

I was just telling you what I found out from those I met. I don’t meet people everyday out there, so I can’t possibly pull an accurate picture.

I do, however, agree that Southern Baptists are pretty staunch in all they believe, including OSAS. My family are Southern Baptist, though, go figure, they live in Michigan. I’m really confused about their beliefs, because so much of it is unscriptural. I always felt like the oddball in the family. It didn’t help to be told “You’re not reading your Bible right”. If there was a right way and a wrong way, then why wasn’t this an important teaching from the pastor? Go figure.

People are saying different things about JW’s. I don’t understand their religion and trying to keep track of what they believe is dizzying. I find it evilly cute that they made their own Bible just because “we don’t agree with how badly it was translated” and they seem to believe that all original books of the Bible were only one language. Yet they don’t normally study that language. I’ve seen how ridiculous their arguments get from trying to be linguists. The most annoying thing is that they never accept other people’s literature, yet they force theirs on you.

Salvation Armyists…where are they in terms of the various levels of Protestants? I’m sure they’re OSAS’ers. They always try to convert me. They think we’re a cult that constantly sacrifices Jesus on an altar at every Mass and treats me like I’m not even a Christian and try to push Protestant literature on me.

I love open talks like this.

 

[jemfinch]

Cherry picking this verse from the Old Testament to conclusively prove the validity of OSAS seems to be a very weak defense of this calvinistic doctrine.

OSAS is not a Calvinistic doctrine. See my post earlier in this thread for an explanation of the difference.

Jeremy

 

[miguel]

And Southern Baptists believe OSAS absolutely literally. Once you’re saved, it does not matter at all what you do, you’re still saved.

I believe it is a deadly doctrine and it’s interesting that Southern Baptists believe it. I wonder if that view was adopted to ease Southern consciences about slave ownership. I don’t know the history of this myself but it wouldn’t surprise me.

 

[Church_Militant]

I believe it is a deadly doctrine and it’s interesting that Southern Baptists believe it. I wonder if that view was adopted to ease Southern consciences about slave ownership. I don’t know the history of this myself but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Speculation…for what it’s worth.

Many people owned slaves and Catholic slave owners were as prevelent in the South as any.

I think OSAS is just a comfort doctrine…
Pax tecum,

 

[Mickey]

OSAS is not a Calvinistic doctrine. See my post earlier in this thread for an explanation of the difference.

Jeremy

I understand what you are saying Jeremy, but I think that some calvinists equate the persevation of the saints with OSAS.

An article by Jason Everett on Catholic Answers says this:

The first person to espouse the idea of “once saved, always saved” was John Calvin in the mid-sixteenth century. Even Martin Luther didn’t subscribe to the theory.
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp

 

[Randy_Carson]

What exactly does “Once Saved Always Saved” mean, what are the implications for the Christian, and is this teaching supported by Scripture?

I. The Protestant ViewA. Protestant Beliefs

· Accept Jesus Christ into your heart· Say the “sinner’s prayer” and confess with your lips· You only need to believe in Jesus (John 3:16)· You have a one way ticket to heaven; absolutely nothing can derail the train; heaven is guaranteed· It is a corollary to “Faith Alone”· ”Absolute assurance” - Since works do not gain your salvation, works cannot cause you to lose your salvation. There is nothing you can DO to lose salvation including sinning.· You are “hid” with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3) God can’t see YOU and YOUR sin anymore. He can only see Christ.· “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:1-2) B. One Protestant sums up the doctrine of OSAS this way:

“However, it is not merely from the Levitical laws that we were discharged, but also from the moral ones. God only has one law. Does that mean we can sin freely? No, for God hates sin, and if we love God, we will live according to His commandments. However, it does mean that no sin will be held against us once we receive Christ, for upon receiving Christ we are discharged from the very law against which our sins would have been reckoned.” (found on the Internet)

​

+++

Lest I be charged with setting up a straw man, I ask others to judge whether this is a fair explanation of OSAS before I go any further. Thanks.

Seeing no real opposition to my definition quoted above, I will continue.

The consequence of this view is that we are no longer bound by the dietary and sacrificial precepts of the Law, but we are no longer bound by the moral Laws such as, “Do not commit adultery”, “Do not murder”, and “Honor thy Father and Mother”, and so on. Under this doctrine, I can be an absolute moral reprobate and it doesn’t matter because I am saved. No matter how many times I sin or what kind of sin I commit, it does not matter.

Notice the Protestant quoted above wrote: “Does that mean we can sin freely? No, for God hates sin, and if we love God, we will live according to His commandments.” This is the crux of the problem for the person who believes OSAS: the problem of sin.

If I don’t have to worry about the consequences of sin, how long will it take before the fact that I suffer no penalty takes over and I sin freely?

This is what makes this doctrine so dangerous for the person who believes it.

 

[sandusky]

Randy Carson:

Seeing no real opposition to my definition quoted above, I will continue.

The consequence of this view is that we are no longer bound by the dietary and sacrificial precepts of the Law, but we are no longer bound by the moral Laws such as, “Do not commit adultery”, “Do not murder”, and “Honor thy Father and Mother”, and so on. Under this doctrine, I can be an absolute moral reprobate and it doesn’t matter because I am saved. No matter how many times I sin or what kind of sin I commit, it does not matter.

Notice the Protestant quoted above wrote: “Does that mean we can sin freely? No, for God hates sin, and if we love God, we will live according to His commandments.” This is the crux of the problem for the person who believes OSAS: the problem of sin.

If I don’t have to worry about the consequences of sin, how long will it take before the fact that I suffer no penalty takes over and I sin freely?

This is what makes this doctrine so dangerous for the person who believes it.

What you are talking about is antinomian “OSAS.”

Not all “OSAS” believers are antinomian.

For the distinction between the two read this.

 

[miguel]

Speculation…for what it’s worth.

Many people owned slaves and Catholic slave owners were as prevelent in the South as any.

I think OSAS is just a comfort doctrine…
Pax tecum,

That may be true. I have no reason to doubt that it is. But the Catholic Church did not invent a doctrine to ease their consciences about it. That’s why I think the history behind the Southern Baptist OSAS doctrine would be interesting.

 

[jemfinch]

I understand what you are saying Jeremy, but I think that some calvinists equate the persevation of the saints with OSAS.

And some Catholics worship Mary, or so we hear. We, of all Christians, should understand the pain of having our beliefs misinterpreted, and so we must be vigilant against misrepresenting the beliefs of others.

Calvinists do not teach OSAS. OSAS is a doctrine of Arminian Baptists.

An article by Jason Everett on Catholic Answers says this:

The first person to espouse the idea of “once saved, always saved” was John Calvin in the mid-sixteenth century. Even Martin Luther didn’t subscribe to the theory.
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp

Then someone should correct Jason Everett as well. Perseverance of the Saints is not the same as OSAS (what sandusky calls “anti-nomian OSAS”).

Jeremy