Once Saved Always Saved Theory

[St_Violet]

I was wondering if anyone can explain a Protestant’s perspective of this teaching, I have asked many but they usualy tend to get off the subject and pretty much all I’d hear is a bunch of words but no point, they can go on and on and pretty much go no where and leaves me remaining clueless.

although I would hear them say to commit a sin is wrong but they seem to as if commiting a sin no longer matters.

after researching this once saved always saved I have come to believe that Once Saved Always saved is another method of promoting Sin.

But if there is anyone out there that can explain a Protestant Perspective on this Teaching, I would glady begin to continue to learn more of this Topic, and of course it’s always good to have Catholics respond to their position on this and what they feel of this teaching.

 

[jfallaw]

I was wondering if anyone can explain a Protestant’s perspective of this teaching, I have asked many but they usualy tend to get off the subject and pretty much all I’d hear is a bunch of words but no point, they can go on and on and pretty much go no where and leaves me remaining clueless.

although I would hear them say to commit a sin is wrong but they seem to as if commiting a sin no longer matters.

after researching this once saved always saved I have come to believe that Once Saved Always saved is another method of promoting Sin.

But if there is anyone out there that can explain a Protestant Perspective on this Teaching, I would glady begin to continue to learn more of this Topic, and of course it’s always good to have Catholics respond to their position on this and what they feel of this teaching.

I was a fundamentalist Protestant for a good fifteen years, and it has been my experience that most Protestants, including “pastors” and those who have attended"bible College", do not really understand exactly what they believe concerning salvation. That is why so many of them (myself included) are never happy for long, often “church shopping” to find the church that suits their beliefs the most, and never really feeling fulfilled. I paint with a broad brush, yes, but from experience.Anyways, I wish I could help, but I just don’t know. I always doubted the OSAS line of thinking- even more so the more I read the Bible. That’s why I am Catholic now. Problem is, if you ask ten protestants what they believe, you will get ten different answers. The good news, or I should say, Good News is, we all believe in Jesus Christ, and that’s a great start!

 

[french]

protestants hold a heretical belief that once one is saved, they are always saved.

It makes no sense. if that was the case, will Judas Iscariot be in Heaven, because he might have been saved? If I decided to convert to Judaism tomorrow would I be saved?

It is a heretical belief with no justification from the Bible whatsoever. It’s another example of how protestants do everything they can to corrupt our Scripture.

 

[Syele]

Ok I’ll try to explain it. But to make it clear… I DO NOT believe in OSAS.

OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is the P in TULIP (Perseverance of the Saints) (in Hyper-Calvinism)

If you follow the logical ends of each of the 4 points then the P is required. Let me show the logic (rereading it I seem a bit harsh but I don’t know how to word it nicer maybe I’m misrepresenting it, but I haven’t seen anything to contradict my thoughts in all the reading I’ve done.):

T Total Depravity: Because of the Fall, Man is totally incapable of doing anything good at all. That means no thinking good things, saying them, nothing. Everything man is capable of is sinful.

U Unconditional Election : Since Man is completely helpless to do anything good, he certainly can’t choose something so awesome as following/trusting God. Since all men are hopeless, God chooses who will be saved with no consideration at all as to who the men are or are not. There are no conditions man must meet to be saved. Man couldn’t meet them if he wanted to. So, God chooses His elect with divine randomness.

L Limited Atonement : Since God has only chosen to save some, there it no point at all in having His Son die for people who are not elect. Therefore, Jesus died only for the Elect. Why should He suffer unnecessarily?

I Irresistible grace: Since man is helpless to do anything (see T) God must have a way to get His elect to follow and obey Him. So God sends His Holy Spirit to overpower the elect to make them obey and follow Him. The elect will have no choice because they cannot choose anyhow. If they are elect they will eventually become Christians and love and obey God no matter what happens in their lives, they cannot resist. If they are not elect they do not have any ability to chose God. Period.

P Perseverance of the Saints : So here is the OSAS part. Man can do nothing Good, God chose to save some of these men through atonement, God is Divine and in charge of these things Man cannot resist. So if someone believes all these things it only follows that people cannot lose their salvation anymore than they can gain it themselves. If God says it, it is done.

although I would hear them say to commit a sin is wrong but they seem to as if commiting a sin no longer matters.

after researching this once saved always saved I have come to believe that Once Saved Always saved is another method of promoting Sin.

To tell someone who believes these things that they are advocating sin is silly. According to this, sin is all people are capable of if they are not elect and if they are elect, God will make them not sin. they haven’t got any choice in the whole matter.

To be fair, the above is an extreme version of Calvinism and most people do not believe all five points to those extremes BUT you can easily see how OSAS can be derived from it. I think most people who believe OSAS were never taught all I just typed. They get bits and pieces from here and there. It doesn’t ring false because the pieces they get don’t seem to contradict the God they have been taught about. They believe God is sovereign, Man cannot do good without God, Jesus Died for us, God chose them, God doesn’t make mistakes. How could you lose salvation if God chose you and God doesn’t make mistakes? They are not being illogical, though I think their logic is based on incomplete information. They are not advocating displeasing God.

 

[deb1]

I’ll explain what I was taught as a Baptist. The above poster did a good job but a lot of Baptist don’t consider themselves Calvinist.

Man kind is lost. We can do nothing good without him. When we make a decision to get saved, we get supernatural help from the Holy Spirit to continue on as a Christian. We can’t fall away because the Holy Spirit want allow us to.

The salvation experience has to be sincere, if it wasn’t then you will eventually loose faith because you weren’t saved to begin with.

I’ve seen some very wonderful Christians who follow this theory and I think that it has a built in mechanism to keep Christians from sinning.

If you sin then you weren’t a Christian, so to prove that you are a Christian, both to yourself and others, you have to avoid sin and follow the rules of your particular church. This can be a very hard cross to bear. After all, if you question if something is correct then you risk being told that you weren’t initially saved.

I’ve also seen some followers-not all-get a tad bit judgmental on who is a Christian and who isn’t.

I have attended sermons in which the pastor spoke about the fact that a ‘real’ Christian wouldn’t watch certain movies, listen to certain music etc.

I think that this is why street preachers and door to door Evangelists feel like they have to quiz anyone who tells them they are Christian. IT isn’t meant to be offensive, just to assure themselves that your salvation was sincere and that you have the Holy Spirit moving in your life.

 

[truthnlight]

Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY - you become a child of God.

“Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . .” 1 John 3:2

“For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER.” Romans 8:15

Just as nothing can “negate” your physical birth, nothing can “negate” your spiritual birth.

My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually - God becomes your Father - nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken!

“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38

“My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:29

Jesus will NEVER leave us!

Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.

“. . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee.” Hebrews 13:5

“. . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:20

When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) - SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.

“He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:… .” John 3:36

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . .” 1 John 5:13

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . .” John 5:24

“And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:” Colossians 2:10

What about the “backslider” or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) - but he himself shall be saved!

“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

What if we later - BELIEVE NOT?

Our salvation is so secure - even if we BELIEVE NOT after we’re saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), “. . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.”

“If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.” 2 Timothy 2:13

---

But what if I sin an awful sin?

1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands “. . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh” - Paul still speaks of that person being saved - “. . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . .”

“It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 1 Corinthians 5:1,5

To lose your salvation - makes God a LIAR!

With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you - to even suggest you could lose your salvation - is to call God a LIAR!
“. . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . .” 1 John 5:10

---

Why do people doubt their salvation?

They trust in feelings rather than the word of God.

“He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . .” Proverbs 28:26
They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:3
They trust in tradition or church teachings rather than the word of God.

 

[thomasf]

It’s amazing to me that one person can read all those plucked bible quotes and believe they say something that they clearly do not.

OSAS is a convenient way of making salvation easy and to deny the truth of the church. And it’s completely false.

 

[mark_a]

I’ve also seen some followers-not all-get a tad bit judgmental on who is a Christian and who isn’t.

Thats a very diplomatic way to put it.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I was a fundamentalist Protestant for a good fifteen years, and it has been my experience that most Protestants, including “pastors” and those who have attended"bible College", do not really understand exactly what they believe concerning salvation. That is why so many of them (myself included) are never happy for long, often “church shopping” to find the church that suits their beliefs the most, and never really feeling fulfilled. I paint with a broad brush, yes, but from experience.

May I suggest that your experience isn’t broad enough to paint with such a brush, or you would know that many Protestants do not, nor ever have, embraced OSAS… and have a very sure and formulated doctrine regarding atonement, eschatology, and salvation.

O+, a “pastor”

 

[deb1]

Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY - you become a child of God.

".

Isn’t all of mankind, both saved and unsaved, the children of God? On this point, I am not actually debating, just curious. We can seperate ourselves from God via our sin but he still loves us and desires us to come to him.

 

[deb1]

May I suggest that your experience isn’t broad enough to paint with such a brush, or you would know that many Protestants do not, nor ever have, embraced OSAS… and have a very sure and formulated doctrine regarding atonement, eschatology, and salvation.

O+, a “pastor”

Even among those who do practice OSAS there is a wide variety of forms of eternal salvation.

I agree though, it is unfair to make such generalizations about such a broad group.

 

[deb1]

Thats a very diplomatic way to put it.

I live in the south so I have met many, many wonderful Protestants who believe in OSAS.

Once I had a discussion with my friend who seemed startled that I didn’t believe in OSAS. I told her that I didn’t think that God was going to quiz us on our theology as a criteria to get into heaven. She seemed relieved, although I know she thinks that I am incorrect in this area.

 

[St_Violet]

To tell someone who believes these things that they are advocating sin is silly. According to this, sin is all people are capable of if they are not elect and if they are elect, God will make them not sin. they haven’t got any choice in the whole matter.

To be fair, the above is an extreme version of Calvinism and most people do not believe all five points to those extremes BUT you can easily see how OSAS can be derived from it. I think most people who believe OSAS were never taught all I just typed. They get bits and pieces from here and there. It doesn’t ring false because the pieces they get don’t seem to contradict the God they have been taught about. They believe God is sovereign, Man cannot do good without God, Jesus Died for us, God chose them, God doesn’t make mistakes. How could you lose salvation if God chose you and God doesn’t make mistakes? They are not being illogical, though I think their logic is based on incomplete information. They are not advocating displeasing God.

I’m not sure if you do believe in this doctrine or you are someone who does not believe in this doctrine but just well aware of it, I agree that It does sound an extreme version of calvinism. but it seems as our free will is very limited to be used once, we have the free will to accept Christ but we do not have the free will to leave the walk of Christ?

 

[Syele]

I’m not sure if you do believe in this doctrine or you are someone who does not believe in this doctrine but just well aware of it, I agree that It does sound an extreme version of calvinism. but it seems as our free will is very limited to be used once, we have the free will to accept Christ but we do not have the free will to leave the walk of Christ?

Well I put it right up at the top of my post… I don’t believe in this Doctrine. I have attended churches that taught it though. in extreme Calvinism you don’t even have free will once to accept it. God will draw you or He won’t. that is the part about the elect. Even the elect didn’t choose, God did. It this doctrine there is not any free will.

There are 4 point Calvinists and 3 point and 2 point. But That seems so illogical to me. I could see a less extreme version where they still believe all the points. but to pick and choose between them seems to ruin any sense the whole thing makes.

 

[christcnection1]

This is one of the more recent threads on the topic. I get a little nauseated thinking about it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=163236

 

[DixiesFinest]

Just as nothing can “negate” your physical birth, nothing can “negate” your spiritual birth.

“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38

“My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:29

What about the “backslider” or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) - but he himself shall be saved!

“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Our salvation is so secure - even if we BELIEVE NOT after we’re saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), “. . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.”

“If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.” 2 Timothy 2:13

Scripture is really quite clear on the point: Christians can lose their salvation. There’s no “sure thing,” no matter how strongly some might wish.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will inherit the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

“See, then, the kindness and severity of God; severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22-23).

“I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

“These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor. 10:11-12).

“You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace” (Gal. 5:4).

“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself” (2 Tim. 2:11-13).

“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins. But a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries” (Heb. 10:26-27).

By the way, the passage from St Paul’s letter to the Romans does not include man himself in the list. No external factor can remove us from God’s hand, but an internal factor…hmm…funny you use the passage from 2 Timothy, because I use the same…however, you conveniently forget to type in the part that says “But if we deny Him, He WILL deny us”

 

[jfallaw]

May I suggest that your experience isn’t broad enough to paint with such a brush, or you would know that many Protestants do not, nor ever have, embraced OSAS… and have a very sure and formulated doctrine regarding atonement, eschatology, and salvation.

O+, a “pastor”

Dude, I have been involved with many, many protestant sects. Not just went to church, but actually committed much time and effort to them in trying to obey Christ’s commands to actually live my faith rather than just profess it. Yes, I have known many who say they don’t believe in OSAS, and alot of them really seem not to. But many prove by their actions (or inaction) that they believe that way. That’s why James 2:14-17 is important. Anyone can claim anything, but if their actions don’t back it up, they are lying to themselves and to God.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Dude, I have been involved with many, many protestant sects. Not just went to church, but actually committed much time and effort to them in trying to obey Christ’s commands to actually live my faith rather than just profess it. Yes, I have known many who say they don’t believe in OSAS, and alot of them really seem not to. But many prove by their actions (or inaction) that they believe that way. That’s why James 2:14-17 is important. Anyone can claim anything, but if their actions don’t back it up, they are lying to themselves and to God.

Sir,

Faith without works is dead - no argument there. And you will get no argument from just about any mainline Protestant Church. Certainly not from Methodists (who believe that works of piety are a means of grace, and that the world is our parish).

As I said earlier, you paint with far too broad a brush.

O+

 

[jfallaw]

Sir,

Faith without works is dead - no argument there. And you will get no argument from just about any mainline Protestant Church. Certainly not from Methodists (who believe that works of piety are a means of grace, and that the world is our parish).

As I said earlier, you paint with far too broad a brush.

O+

Blah! Debate has become annoying, so I shall resort to dismissal! Good day, Sir!

 

[truthnlight]

“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins. But a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries” (Heb. 10:26-27).

If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.– Hebrews 10:26, 27

Awful words! enough to make one’s heart tremble, excite a holy fear; and provoke a godly jealousy. Wilful sins bring on woful complaints. Yes, some one replies, I find it so by woful experience. I have received the knowledge of the truth of salvation by Christ Jesus, and Oh what have I done! Sinned wilfully; and now I must perish eternally; there is no hope or help: my sin is unpardonable; there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment; I am shut up in despair; I wait with terror my dreadful doom.

Stop a little: write not such bitter things against thyself. True, you are condemned for your past wicked conduct: it is fit you should take shame to yourself, humble yourself, and repent as in dust and ashes; but this text never was intended to drive to despair, even the wilful sinner, who sees and truly repents of his vile conduct. Consider, that if every wilful sin committed after a person has received the knowledge of the truth is unpardonable, the whole world must be lost; not one sinner would be saved; and the word of God could not be true, “The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin.” 1 John 1:7. Then all backsliding sinners must perish without hope. God himself must prove false to his word, “I will heal their backslidings.” Hoses 14:4. And Christ must be a false prophet when he declares, “All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men.” Matt. 12:31.

Consider well two words in this text: “There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” Now this wilful sin is rejecting the one sacrifice of Jesus, treading under foot the Son of God, accounting his blood an unholy thing, and expecting to be saved some other way. Here is total apostacy and final unbelief; whereas your guilty conscience seeks no sacrifice beside the one offering of the Son of God. Again, it is the adversary who is to be devoured. Is your heart set against Christ? Do you turn from him? Do you desire to have nothing to do with him! O no! the one desire of your soul is to be pardoned through him, accepted in him, and saved by him. Then you are not, in the sense of the text, the adversary of Christ, and this text belongs not to you. But this does, “It is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.” 1 Tim. 1:15.