Once saved, always saved VS. Once Catholic, always Catholic

[Alizarin]

Jesus’ death on the Cross fulfilled the Old Covenant and inaugurated the New Covenant. We still have to enter into the New Covenant, by means of the Sacraments.

I’m curious, how do you define the New Covenant? (maybe I should start a new thread for this. Could be a good discussion.)

 

[St_Francis]

Thank you St. Francis for explaining it. God bless you and your family.

Thank you very much We need all the help we can get! And God bless you and your family.

 

[Blacksword]

But you’re “in the burning building” yet again. And you get pulled out again, albeit this time by the sacrament, and so you can say either you’ve rescued yourself (b/c you chose to go to confession), or the priest has rescued you (because he administers the sacrament), or Jesus through the priest has rescued you (the most acccurate way to word it considering Catholic theology). All in all, you are being saved again. And again and again over a lifetime, or so it looks like to an outsider.

The problem here is a faulty notion of “salvation”. Scripture does not teach that it is something that “happens” at a specific moment of our lifetimes, but is something we must strive, pray, hope for at our death. We must each day pick up our crosses and follow Christ. As St. Paul said he was working out his salvation with fear and trembling (not to say it is accomplished by works), and compared it to running a good race, fighting a good fight. He did not presume to claim certainty of his own salvation, and neither should we. We are redeemed, and we are called to cooperate with the Holy Spirit, carry our crosses and follow Christ each day on our path to salvation. The atonement is accomplished by Christ, we are saved by grace alone, and yet we have free will to cooperate with the Holy Spirit or reject Him, each moment of each day.

So reconciliation is not “being saved again” and this is why Catholics appropriately do not say they are “saved” as the notion by itself is an unscriptural idea, a dangerous dumbing down of the Gospel. Reconciliation is a way of restoring right communion with God through restoring one’s union with the body of Christ which one’s own sins may have strained or severed. I’ve heard it said the fullest and best scriptural response to the question “are you saved” is “I was saved at baptism, I am being saved through the sacramental life of the Church and my faith in action in Christ as my Redeemer, and I hope to be saved at my death!”

 

[z_0101]

But you’re “in the burning building” yet again. And you get pulled out again, albeit this time by the sacrament, and so you can say either you’ve rescued yourself (b/c you chose to go to confession), or the priest has rescued you (because he administers the sacrament), or Jesus through the priest has rescued you (the most accurate way to word it considering Catholic theology). All in all, you are being saved again. And again and again over a lifetime, or so it looks like to an outsider.

Let’s look at that last statement:

All in all, you are being saved again. And again and again over a lifetime, or so it looks like to an outsider

“and so it look like to an outsider” and this is why I always invite my non-Catholic friends to every year’s RCIA - not as a means of conversion (although if that happens ) but as a means of building trust and understanding between the faiths. Once we have understanding and trust, the Church can truly start to re-unite.

And instead of trying to argue with you about being “saved again” thru the sacrements I’m going to borrow from another track offered here at Catholic Answers. There is a particular section there that I will highlight:

Confession(Catholic Answer Tract - Click here for the full article)Augustine

“When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . **But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body **of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance” (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]).

Now, this is a bit esoteric, in fact I had to read thru the entire track three times before I was sure that this is what I wanted to use.

St Augustine in the first highlighted section is clearly talking about Mortal Sin and the effect of such is to separate us from the Body of Christ. We’ve already been saved once. However, thru mortal sin we have been separated from Christ. Thru the sacrament of penance (reconciliation - the second highlighted section) we are re-united with the Body of Christ - not saved a second or infinite number of times, we are re-united or, “reconciled” to the Body of Christ.

Please read thru both this track and the one I referred to in my prior post. These writers are perhaps better at explaining the concepts that you are having issue with than I am.

 

[Alizarin]

…this is why I always invite my non-Catholic friends to every year’s RCIA - not as a means of conversion (although if that happens )

I’ve been to RCIA I converted to Catholicism a few years back. Then I left it last year.

And instead of trying to argue with you about being “saved again”…

I’m sorry if it’s coming off like an argument. I don’t mean it to be. The way I look at it you and I are just exploring ideas, which I like

St Augustine in the…

One of my favorites. I’ve read Confessions, City of God, a book of his homilies, and various other pieces.

 

[Alizarin]

The problem here is a faulty notion of “salvation”. Scripture does not teach that it is something that “happens” at a specific moment of our lifetimes…

What about all those instances when Jesus said to someone “Your faith has saved you”? There was a specific moment. He didn’t say, “Your faith has put you on the road to being saved eventually”. It was just, “Your faith has saved you”, past tense.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

What about all those instances when Jesus said to someone “Your faith has saved you”? There was a specific moment. He didn’t say, “Your faith has put you on the road to being saved eventually”. It was just, “Your faith has saved you”, past tense.

Not those, but to that one person (The woman who was washing His feet at the Pharisee’s house - Luke 7:50).

Jesus said “You faith has healed you” a lot more than saved you.

So what are these circumstances? In this one instance. Are we all the woman washing His feet? Are we all the thief on the Cross? Or are we individually treated by Christ?

Why is salvation referred to as Past, Present and Future throughout the New Testament?

God, in His omniscience knows who is saved and who is not.

We, on the other hand, do not. For us to proclaim Salvation as a one moment in time would be to put ourselves in the mind of God. And we already know that is not possible.

Our conversion is a lifetime commitment, not a one moment in time. We can identify the one moment our lives were touched by Christ and how we were drawn to Him by the Father. But we cannot identify if we are going to persevere until the end of our lives or that of anyone else.

 

[Brendan_64]

OSAS is a religious doctrine. ‘Catholic’ in the context: ‘once Catholic always Cathbolic’ is a cultural identifier; a label.

If a person identifies himself as Catholic, he’s Catholic, even if he holds strange doctrine. If he says he’s not Catholic, then he isn’t Catholic.

That’s not correct. The Church teaches that a person who has been baptised as a Ctholic, or who has been accepted into the Church, will always be a Catholic, regardless of whether or not he regards himself as one. It is not simply a label. The person is also subject to Canon Law.

 

[Brendan_64]

I’ve been to RCIA I converted to Catholicism a few years back. Then I left it last year.

You’re still a Catholic.

 

[jmcrae]

What about all those instances when Jesus said to someone “Your faith has saved you”? There was a specific moment. He didn’t say, “Your faith has put you on the road to being saved eventually”. It was just, “Your faith has saved you”, past tense.

This was not the salvation of going to Heaven, but the salvation of being healed of a particular disease.

 

[TK421]

Good point that you make. But in that way of looking at it, it’s like saying Jesus died to give people the chance to be saved, rather than saying Jesus died for our salvation as the creed puts it. In which case He’s only doing part of His work, leaving it incomplete, it seems. That’s what trips me up.

I’m not sure what part seems inconsistent to you. Yes, Jesus did die to give people the chance to be saved. This doesn’t actually mean they’re compelled by force to be saved, otherwise there would be no teaching on repentance, perseverance, or Hell, all three of which subjects make up a large portion of the scriptures.

The creed is very short and it of course doesn’t explain in detail the entire gospel or the entire theology of Catholicism. That’s why it’s called a creed. But at any rate, the meaning of “died for our salvation” = / = “All men are saved by default”.

 

[Alizarin]

This was not the salvation of going to Heaven, but the salvation of being healed of a particular disease.

I should have been more specific. I meant Mary Magdalene, and Zacchaeus. Should’ve phrased it better.

 

[jmcrae]

I should have been more specific. I meant Mary Magdalene, and Zacchaeus. Should’ve phrased it better.

OH, I see. Well, Jesus could certainly have foreseen that they were going to become Saints, and that they would never commit sin again. I think in their situation, anyone would find the strength to avoid sin for the rest of their lives. But even in their case, their sins were washed away on the Cross, which took place later than that.

 

[Alizarin]

You’re still a Catholic.

And we get back to the original question of the thread . Why “once catholic always catholic”, but not “once saved always saved”?

The answer seems to be that you attribute to the sacrament of Confirmation a certain power to permantly link one to the Catholic Church, but don’t give faith the ability to permantly link one to life with God, whereas a Protestant does. But both sides have the scripture verses to back them up. Which leaves Catholics with an appeal to Magisterial teaching, but that rests on an authority that Protestants don’t trust.

 

[jmcrae]

And we get back to the original question of the thread . Why “once catholic always catholic”, but not “once saved always saved”?

The answer seems to be that you attribute to the sacrament of Confirmation a certain power to permantly link one to the Catholic Church, but don’t give faith the ability to permantly link one to life with God, whereas a Protestant does. But both sides have the scripture verses to back them up. Which leaves Catholics with an appeal to Magisterial teaching, but that rests on an authority that Protestants don’t trust.

How do you explain all the people who become born again Christians when they are teenagers, and then by the time they are 30, they claim to be atheists? What happened to that “permanent link to God”?

But yes - once Confirmed, always Confirmed, and once you come under the authority of the Church, she will not let go of you.

 

[St_Francis]

And we get back to the original question of the thread . Why “once catholic always catholic”, but not “once saved always saved”?

The answer seems to be that you attribute to the sacrament of Confirmation a certain power to permantly link one to the Catholic Church,

One can be permanently linked to the Church without the state of grace, in the end, to attain Heaven. “Being Catholic” does not guarantee attaining Heaven.

but don’t give faith the ability to permantly link one to life with God, whereas a Protestant does.

What exactly does OSAS mean? I have been told if you say the Sinner’s Prayer, then that’s it, you’re going to Heaven no matter what you do after you say the prayer. Is that what you are talking about, or maybe something else?

But both sides have the scripture verses to back them up. Which leaves Catholics with an appeal to Magisterial teaching, but that rests on an authority that Protestants don’t trust.

Catholics do not base their teaching on the Bible; the documents of the NT were chosen by those in the Catholic Church because those books were in line with what the Catholic Church was already teaching.

The fact that Protestants do not trust the Magisterium is aside from the point. The point is whether the Magisterium actually has the authority or not. IOW, that point would need to be sorted out *before *all the other points.

 

[Blacksword]

Not those, but to that one person (The woman who was washing His feet at the Pharisee’s house - Luke 7:50).

Jesus said “You faith has healed you” a lot more than saved you.

So what are these circumstances? In this one instance. Are we all the woman washing His feet? Are we all the thief on the Cross? Or are we individually treated by Christ?

Why is salvation referred to as Past, Present and Future throughout the New Testament?

God, in His omniscience knows who is saved and who is not.

We, on the other hand, do not. For us to proclaim Salvation as a one moment in time would be to put ourselves in the mind of God. And we already know that is not possible.

Our conversion is a lifetime commitment, not a one moment in time. We can identify the one moment our lives were touched by Christ and how we were drawn to Him by the Father. But we cannot identify if we are going to persevere until the end of our lives or that of anyone else.

Yes perfect, exactly!

 

[Brendan_64]

And we get back to the original question of the thread . Why “once catholic always catholic”, but not “once saved always saved”?

That is very different, being a Catholic will not, in itself, ensure your place in Heaven.

Anyone that is bapitised into the Catholic Church (it doesn’t depend on Confirmation) or has been received into the Catholic Church (converts who have been validly baptised in another Christian denomination) is part of the Catholic Church and bound by Canon Law. They may decide not to practice, they may decide to attend services of other churches, they may decide they don’t believe any of it any more, but they are still part of the Catholic Church.

This does not, by any means, guarantee a place in Heaven. To claim that would be to claim to know the mind of God and put yourself in a position to prejudge His decision on the matter.

 

[Alizarin]

How do you explain all the people who become born again Christians when they are teenagers, and then by the time they are 30, they claim to be atheists? What happened to that “permanent link to God”?

But yes - once Confirmed, always Confirmed, and once you come under the authority of the Church, she will not let go of you.

I’ve heard some Protestants say that the original act of faith covers the sin of unbelief that occurs later. Not saying I believe that myself, just relaying what I’ve heard, since you asked.

As to the part about “she will not let go of you”, shouldn’t love respect freedom? (and yes, Calvinists have to answer that one, too)

 

[Brendan_64]

As to the part about “she will not let go of you”, shouldn’t love respect freedom?

You are free to reject your family (as the Prodigal son did) but you are still part of that family (and the Church longs for your return like the father longed for the return of the Prodigal Son) and will always welcome you back with open arms.