Once saved, always saved VS. Once Catholic, always Catholic

[SecretaryMonday]

Actually, I think it is confirmation that makes you Catholic. That is when you are sealed with the cross on your forehead. From that moment on you carry that mark with you, even into Hell if you go there.

It depends on whether or not baptism was performed within the Catholic Church.

Baptism makes one technically a Christian. If they were baptized within the Catholic Church, they are officially Catholic. They may receive Confession and the Eucharist without having received the sacrament of Confirmation.

A baptism outside of the Catholic Church, if it is a valid Christian baptism, places one in a kind of detached communion with Catholicism (though the non-Catholic who baptized them might say “I sure as heck don’t THINK so! No child of mine is gonna be a Romanist!”)
When a person who has received a Christian-but-not-Catholic baptism wants to enter into full communion with Catholicism, it is their Confirmation that “makes” them Catholic. Ordinarily, they would not be allowed to receive Confession (except in preparation for receiving Confirmation, which is necessary so that they will not be in a state of mortal sin at that moment) or the Eucharist because, although Christian and share a partial unity, they are not formally united to the Catholic Church.

 

[Jozefo]

Because baptism works an ontological, spiritual change regardless of the recipient’s will or knowledge of if. An assent to the Christian faith is a pure act of the will, and that can change over time. One free will to walk into the house of God, and free will to walk out again. The Scriptures provide support for the idea that baptism marks a permanent change (born of water and of spirit), they do not provide any support for the idea of OSAS, which is why the idea remains a view espoused by a very small minority among even Protestants, and is not the view of the historic Church be in Catholic or Orthodox.

What if a confirmed Catholic rejects being Catholic? What then?

 

[TK421]

Uhh, shoot. Just listen to SecretaryMonday. I’m going to go hunt down Catholic Encyclopedia. I thought a person became a member of Catholic communion upon any valid baptism. nm

 

[Alizarin]

It depends on whether or not baptism was performed within the Catholic Church.

Baptism makes one technically a Christian. If they were baptized within the Catholic Church, they are officially Catholic. They may receive Confession and the Eucharist without having received the sacrament of Confirmation.

A baptism outside of the Catholic Church, if it is a valid Christian baptism, places one in a kind of detached communion with Catholicism (though the non-Catholic who baptized them might say “I sure as heck don’t THINK so! No child of mine is gonna be a Romanist!”)
When a person who has received a Christian-but-not-Catholic baptism wants to enter into full communion with Catholicism, it is their Confirmation that “makes” them Catholic. Ordinarily, they would not be allowed to receive Confession (except in preparation for receiving Confirmation, which is necessary so that they will not be in a state of mortal sin at that moment) or the Eucharist because, although Christian and share a partial unity, they are not formally united to the Catholic Church.

Ok, let’s stick with that then. Someone’s been validly baptized in whichever church, then eventually confirmed in the Catholic Church. Now they’re Catholic. Years later they say they have left the Catholic faith. At this point, many Catholics have said to or about those “ex-Catholics” that once Catholic, always Catholic. These people are just in imperfect communion. Fine.

But how is that different than once saved always saved? The same internal logic is being used, isn’t it?

 

[SecretaryMonday]

Uhh, shoot. Just listen to SecretaryMonday.

I’m going to get this printed on some T-Shirts. (Unfortunately it isn’t always reliable.)

 

[SecretaryMonday]

Ok, let’s stick with that then. Someone’s been validly baptized is whichever church, then eventually confirmed in the Catholic Church. Now they’re Catholic. Years later they say they have left the Catholic faith. At this point, many Catholics have said to or about those “ex-Catholics” that once Catholic, always Catholic. These people are just in imperfect communion. Fine.

But how is that different than once saved always saved? The same internal logic is being used, isn’t it?

The Catholic Church does not teach that becoming Catholic (and being ontologically Catholic even though the religion is no longer appealing) guarantees you an eternal place in heaven. You can be ontologically a Catholic and end up in Hell.

 

[Jozefo]

This whole once Catholic, always Catholic hurts my feelings. When it is explained people say that it is because you are baptized Catholic. Well, I wasn’t. I had a valid baptism and the Church recognizes it, but it wasn’t done at a Catholic Church by a Catholic priest. When it is explained that you are once Catholic, always Catholic because of your baptism, it makes me feel like I’m not fully Catholic. Kinda hurts. Can this be explained differently for us converts?

I’m with you, it’s hurtful.

 

[Alizarin]

The Catholic Church does not teach that becoming Catholic (and being ontologically Catholic even though the religion is no longer appealing) guarantees you an eternal place in heaven.

Yeah I wasn’t saying it did. I was just drawing a parallel between the two things when it comes to the logic being used, and I can’t figure out why that logic is acceptable when it comes to OCAC but not when it comes to OSAS. I really don’t see the difference.

 

[SecretaryMonday]

This whole once Catholic, always Catholic hurts my feelings. When it is explained people say that it is because you are baptized Catholic. Well, I wasn’t. I had a valid baptism and the Church recognizes it, but it wasn’t done at a Catholic Church by a Catholic priest. When it is explained that you are once Catholic, always Catholic because of your baptism, it makes me feel like I’m not fully Catholic. Kinda hurts. Can this be explained differently for us converts?

I’m with you, it’s hurtful.

Happily, it doesn’t have to be hurtful, unless you give it permission to eat away at you - then it can hurt; and it is absolutely absurd how much hurt I can feel over the tiniest details if I’m not vigilant over what I let my emotions feed on. We were validly baptized and received the same Holy Spirit and His gifts that cradle Catholics did, and the same Confirmation. We are just as completely Catholic as people who were born Catholic; it just took a little longer.

 

[SecretaryMonday]

Yeah I wasn’t saying it did. I was just drawing a parallel between the two things when it comes to the logic being used, and I can’t figure out why that logic is acceptable when it comes to OCAC but not when it comes to OSAS. I really don’t see the difference.

The sacraments do real, not merely symbolic, things. Baptism and Confirmation are two sacraments that leave a permanent mark on the soul, kind of like a spiritual belly button. Praying a sinners’ prayer is probably a good practice, but it doesn’t leave a mark, and the devotion can be forgotten or rejected at will.

Maybe it is like the difference between getting a real tattoo and a stick-on version.

 

[TK421]

I’m with you, it’s hurtful.

I think it’s cool. It’s like it was a stealth-mode baptism. It’s like I had a diamond hidden inside me the entire time but I never fully understood its value until recently. When I fell out of faith in God in my teenage years and later came back to evangelical Christianity, I occasionally wondered if I ought to get baptized again. Now my question is answered.

 

[Jozefo]

Happily, it doesn’t have to be hurtful, unless you give it permission to eat away at you - then it can hurt; and it is absolutely absurd how much hurt I can feel over the tiniest details if I’m not vigilant over what I let my emotions feed on. We were validly baptized and received the same Holy Spirit and His gifts that cradle Catholics did, and the same Confirmation. We are just as completely Catholic as people who were born Catholic; it just took a little longer.

Let me try this: Catholic is only a word. At baptism, our souls aren’t laid out on a work table, and stamped with a giant rubber stamp, CATHOLIC. That is a label that Catholic people use to identify themselves, not the one impressed on us by God.

 

[Usagi]

Let me try this: Catholic is only a word. At baptism, our souls aren’t laid out on a work table, and stamped with a giant rubber stamp, CATHOLIC. That is a label that Catholic people use to identify themselves, not the one impressed on us by God.

I suppose it would be proper to say that “Christian” is the label stamped on our souls at Baptism, since there is only one Baptism and not different versions for different denominations.

On the other hand, Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the fullest expression of Christianity, the most direct and faithful descendant of the community Jesus founded, so in that sense we would say that Christian baptism and Catholic baptism are the same thing, and the only reason that’s not always obvious is that Christianity has tragically splintered over the course of history, much against the will of our Lord.

Usagi

 

[Usagi]

Yeah I wasn’t saying it did. I was just drawing a parallel between the two things when it comes to the logic being used, and I can’t figure out why that logic is acceptable when it comes to OCAC but not when it comes to OSAS. I really don’t see the difference.

OSAS is wrong because it implies that, after repenting and putting faith in Christ once, one could enthusiastically jump right back into unrepented sin and still go to Heaven in the end. Both Scripture and historic Christian teaching testify against such a notion. It’s true that Heaven is unearned, and that sanctification is God’s work and not ours, but dying to sin and persevering to the end is still something our wills (empowered by His grace) must cooperate in.

OCAC is an entirely different matter precisely because it does not involve salvation, but merely the question of whether Baptism is permanent even in the face of damnable sin. Scripture does not clearly address the topic, but the conclusion of the apostolic churches is that Baptism (and Confirmation and Holy Orders) need never be repeated, whether because the individual has apostasized and returned or because the original sacrament was received in a schismatic or heretical community. (Both of these things actually happened many times in the early centuries and had to be adjudicated.) The conclusion was that the mark of a Christian remains on one’s soul for eternity, whether as part of one’s glory in Heaven or as a mark of especial shame in Hell.

Usagi

 

[Jozefo]

I suppose it would be proper to say that “Christian” is the label stamped on our souls at Baptism, since there is only one Baptism and not different versions for different denominations.

On the other hand, Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the fullest expression of Christianity, the most direct and faithful descendant of the community Jesus founded, so in that sense we would say that Christian baptism and Catholic baptism are the same thing, and the only reason that’s not always obvious is that Christianity has tragically splintered over the course of history, much against the will of our Lord.

Usagi

Just to make it clear, I’m Catholic. But I find OCAC distasteful, as I do OSAS, but for different reasons. OSAS cannot be supported well from Sacred Scripture, so we can leave that alone.

OCAC is, in my opinion, less than charitable for a number of reasons.

First, if someone rejects being Catholic, how can anyone in good conscience continue calling him Catholic? It would be arrogant, presumptuous, and disrespectful.

Second, it’s inaccurate. While it’s true the Holy Spirit presses a mark on the soul, it’s possible that a person can disregard it, go back on his vows, and go into default on the deal, so to speak. Of course, having been bought for a price, he would bring triple damages onto himself, but that’s a different matter.

Third, I see it as a kind of jingoistic expression. Please don’t misunderstand, I think it’s good and right to be patriotic to one’s nation. But it’s kind of like waving fireworks in an immigrant’s face. There’s an intimidation factor at work.

 

[JimG]

This whole once Catholic, always Catholic hurts my feelings. When it is explained people say that it is because you are baptized Catholic. Well, I wasn’t. I had a valid baptism and the Church recognizes it, but it wasn’t done at a Catholic Church by a Catholic priest. When it is explained that you are once Catholic, always Catholic because of your baptism, it makes me feel like I’m not fully Catholic. Kinda hurts. Can this be explained differently for us converts?

Yes. You said that the Church has advised you that your Baptism was valid. A valid baptism is a valid baptism. It makes an ontological change to your soul that is permanent and irreversible, cleanses you from original sin and all actual sin, and joins you to the life of the Church. The Catholic Church doesn’t re-baptize those who have already been validly baptized. So yes, you are once Catholic always Catholic, even though you were not in visible union with the Church at your Baptism.

Baptism when done with proper intent and form, is permanent. It doesn’t guarantee salvation, just gives one the benefit of being joined to the sacramental life of the Church. An ontological change is permanent. Our wills, however, are changeable until death. We can reject Christ at any moment of our lives, which is why we must persevere to the end.

 

[jjgigem]

JoseFo - You posted an observation that I had to work on in my life and I have some hard won experience, albeit personal experience. I got tangled up in word semantics. For me, I have to take a daily vow to be Catholic - it is not a lifetime thing for me. I am Catholic one day at a time. I say this more out of humility because I have struggled in my faith. There are times that I am hanging on with an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be prayer. I recite these prayers several times a day. It is hard for me because I view Catholic as being a verb instead of a noun. A daily commitment to be Catholic (i.e. as a verb) is what I find most challenging in times where it is easier to be Catholic (i.e. as a noun). Hope this helps and does not offend anyone. God bless everyone!

 

[jmcrae]

Why doesn’t an assent to the Christian faith (faith in Jesus as savior) have the same indelible mark as Catholic baptism?

Because it’s not a Sacrament; it’s an opinion that one holds.

It’s a very good opinion to have, don’t get me wrong - but our opinions don’t save us, It is Jesus who saves us, by means of the Sacraments, which are the outpouring of the grace from His death on the Cross being transmitted into our souls. When our opinions and our beliefs are aligned with the Sacramental graces that are being poured into our souls, we are in a state of grace.

But belief alone can’t save us. We also need the Sacraments, because that is how we receive grace.

 

[SecretaryMonday]

Second, it’s inaccurate. While it’s true the Holy Spirit presses a mark on the soul, it’s possible that a person can disregard it, go back on his vows, and go into default on the deal, so to speak. Of course, having been bought for a price, he would bring triple damages onto himself, but that’s a different matter.

Doesn’t triple damages imply that something irreversible has taken place? (Not to say that it eliminates “default on the deal” on our part, but it is also more than just a point of view that one used to hold and has now changed.) Of course it can be disregarded, but that does not mean that it disappears just because someone chooses to not see it.

 

[Jozefo]

JoseFo - You posted an observation that I had to work on in my life and I have some hard won experience, albeit personal experience. I got tangled up in word semantics. For me, I have to take a daily vow to be Catholic - it is not a lifetime thing for me. I am Catholic one day at a time. I say this more out of humility because I have struggled in my faith. There are times that I am hanging on with an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be prayer. I recite these prayers several times a day. It is hard for me because I view Catholic as being a verb instead of a noun. A daily commitment to be Catholic (i.e. as a verb) is what I find most challenging in times where it is easier to be Catholic (i.e. as a noun). Hope this helps and does not offend anyone. God bless everyone!

It helps! It sounds like we have some of the same challenges. I sincerely appreciate your words.