Once saved always saved

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Burning4Christ

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I know that this issue is more hotly debated amongst protestants, but I would like to know the Catholic churchs position on the subject. Once someone gives there life over and accepts the grace of God, can they turn back? Some say freewill, others point to where jesus says in the Gospel (forgive me, exact refrence escapes me) that once they have come to my father, nobody can pluck them from my hands. I’ll admit I do not fully understand Catholic teachings on salvation so I may be asking a questions on assumptions that are inaccurate.

Thank you, and God bless all of you, my brothers and sisters in Christ,

Brendan Marchione
 
Burning4Christ said:
Once someone gives there life over and accepts the grace of God, can they turn back?
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We can reject God’s grace because of free will.
Burning4Christ said:
Some say freewill, others point to where jesus says in the Gospel (forgive me, exact refrence escapes me) that once they have come to my father, nobody can pluck them from my hands.
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Maybe nobody can pluck them from His hands, but they can jump out of them if they choose.
 
The Church teaches salvation is a process and not an event. Paraphrasing Saint Paul, we are saved, are working on our salvation, and hope to be saved.
 
As Tom said above…
God gave us all freewill. Just as you can choose to turn towards God (accept his grace), you can also choose to turn away (reject his grace). The best way I can state it for me is… I am saved, I continue to be saved, and I am continually working out my salvation with fear and trembling. This is a lifelong process, not a one time event. When we stop growing in Christ, is when we are most vulnerable in losing our salvation. This is why OSAS is so dangerous.
 
Copied from one of those threads referenced:
holy_wood said:
"As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I *will be *saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
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I generally agree that OSAS is not true, that because of freewill we can turn from God, with one little amendum. I have heard people say and I generally agree, that if someone has been saved, truly saved, then providance dictates that they wont turn away. If they turn away from God, then they were never saved.

What are your thoughts on that?

~Be Bless
Brendan M
 
Burning4Christ said:
I generally agree that OSAS is not true, that because of freewill we can turn from God, with one little amendum. I have heard people say and I generally agree, that if someone has been saved, truly saved, then providance dictates that they wont turn away. If they turn away from God, then they were never saved.

What are your thoughts on that?

~Be Bless
Brendan M
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Its a self fullfilling prophecy.
 
Burning4Christ said:
I generally agree that OSAS is not true, that because of freewill we can turn from God, with one little amendum. I have heard people say and I generally agree, that if someone has been saved, truly saved, then providance dictates that they wont turn away. If they turn away from God, then they were never saved.

What are your thoughts on that?

~Be Bless
Brendan M
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Didn’t one of the twelve, one who Jesus Himself picked, turn away? Didn’t the disciples spoken of in John chapter 6 turn away? These people actually knew Jesus. So how can you ever know you will not one day turn away? How can you ever know you were truly saved? Basically you’re not saved until you are judged. To proclaim you are “saved” is telling God you’re above Him, you are your own judge!
www.drbo.org:
John 6,67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
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I’ll wait to hear God say I’m saved thanks.
 
The never saved to begin with response, is also terrible.

Let me explain why. This means that no one knows that they were saved, so it really makes no difference if you think you are saved or not. You could not be, because you were never saved to begin with. Except those who say that they are saved, usually are pretty well assured they are saved.

Try and tell them that they might be excluded, as they might be among those who were never saved to begin with.
Watch the reaction…

Eventually it becomes to the same thing, but expressed in a different way, God loves us first, we need to love God, continue loving God and being obedient to the end. Everything else is just pride trying to make excuses for sin.

God Bless
Scylla
 
Finally, consider the example of infants. Many Evangelicals, and even many Calvinists teach that any infant who dies is given an automatic assurance of heaven. Such children would then be in a state of grace. But when they grow and reach the age of accountability, they must fall from this grace, if they any of them are to be lost when they die as adults.
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I do not know, but my opponent may be one of those Calvinists who claim that only elect infants are saved to heaven–without having to make a profession of faith in Jesus Christ and thus without faith alone–and that the unelect infants go into the fires of hell. If so then he also has a problem. What happens to elect infants when they reach the age of accountability? Do they fall from a state of grace? Do they retain their forgiveness even without having accepted Christ and the “faith alone” requirement that is demanded of those over the age of accountability?
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This is an interesting point, is there a non-Catholic Christian who can answer this? I would greatly appreciate a response.

God bless
 
Start the conversation like this…

“Does the bible say we are able to test ourselves to know if we are saved…”

The answer should be yes…

then ask… If a man comes to Christ, studies scripture, and determines that he is saved… is he saved for all time…

Again the answer should be yes for them…

Then ask… Well… suppose, as so often can happen a man who tests himself true, later falls away, becomes embroiled in sin, and then tests themselves again… only to find they failed…

They will undoubtedly say something like… “well, he was never saved to begin with”

But wait, you just said you could test yourself… this man did, came up as pass… then later came up as false…

To this, you will get one of two responses…
  1. Well… if he wasn’t saved to begin with, he wasn’t able to properly test… therefore, the test was invalid the first time…
or
  1. Such a scenario is impossible…
addressing point 2 first… refuse to accept this answer as it has never fit reality. Countless people at countless churches tested themselves true, only to later test false. (me being one of them)

with respect to response one… you simply point back to scripture… but it says you CAN test yourself… it gives no indication on saved unsaved… just that you can use scripture and the word of God to see if you truly are saved…

At this point… the OSASer has but two choices… Since the ability to test one self against scripture is well, scriptural, then the scenario mentioned either shows OSAS wrong… or the bible…

Why? If OSAS is right, then it goes against very explicit verses in scripture.
They cannot both be right as the produce opposite results…

ALL THAT BEING SAID… I have seen some very good Christians the profess OSAS so OSAS does not mean that someone will be drawn away

In Christ
 
Burning4Christ said:
I generally agree that OSAS is not true, that because of freewill we can turn from God, with one little amendum. I have heard people say and I generally agree, that if someone has been saved, truly saved, then providance dictates that they wont turn away. If they turn away from God, then they were never saved.

What are your thoughts on that?
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Dove-tailing on what heisenburg said, I find the whole “they were never saved to begin with” especially peculiar to those who claim they have assurance of salvation. After all, there are those who claim “I am assured of salvation” who then fall away, and his remaining brethren will say “he was never saved to begin with”, while they then still claim to be assured of salvation, just like the first guy used to do!

Also, the doctrine of “never saved to begin with” is quite false. There are many examples at the end of that first link I sent you about people that were saved and then not saved from Scripture. The parable of the Prodigal Son shows how the elder son was saved, not saved, and then saved again. Then there’s the story of Simon (not Peter) who believed but then he fell hard (Acts 8:13, 18-24), etc…
 
Another intriguing question (this came to me on Holy Thursday) is to ask them when they think the Apostle Peter became saved. Was it before the Last Supper? I think every Christian would say yes - Mt 16:15-19 should be ample proof for them. And yet Christ told Peter if he did not allow Him to wash his feet, Peter would have no inheritance with Him. Sounds as if Peter could have lost his salvation right then and there.
 
Burning4Christ said:
I generally agree that OSAS is not true, that because of freewill we can turn from God, with one little amendum. I have heard people say and I generally agree, that if someone has been saved, truly saved, then providance dictates that they wont turn away. If they turn away from God, then they were never saved.

What are your thoughts on that?

~Be Bless
Brendan M
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I think this is a horrible, horrible cop out. How can anyone who believes in OSAS then ever be assured of their salvation? (I don’t believe they can, but for different reasons than this).

Plus, many people have never heard of Jesus, and there are many babies that die. Do they, then, all go to hell? I seriously doubt it. I don’t believe that God creates people and then NEVER gives them the chance for salvation. That’s not a loving God, and God is love.

Another problem that I have with OSAS is that it relies on works to get us to heaven. Yes, that’s what Catholics are always accused of, but the opposite is true. If you don’t utter those words and believe in your heart, you’re damned? Sounds like a work to me.

I believe that we are saved by the grace of God. Period. Yes, the normal way to that grace is through faith, but there are probably extra-normal ways to salvation also. We might be called to faith for salvation, but God isn’t constrained by that. He can save whoever he wants. This takes care of the babies and the ignorant. OSAS puts them in hell, the Catholic church allows for people like this to probably be in heaven, although only God knows for sure.
 
VociMike said:
Another intriguing question (this came to me on Holy Thursday) is to ask them when they think the Apostle Peter became saved. Was it before the Last Supper? I think every Christian would say yes - Mt 16:15-19 should be ample proof for them. And yet Christ told Peter if he did not allow Him to wash his feet, Peter would have no inheritance with Him. Sounds as if Peter could have lost his salvation right then and there.
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Wouldn’t some say that Peter wasn’t saved until Jesus died on the cross?
 
Lampo said:
Wouldn’t some say that Peter wasn’t saved until Jesus died on the cross?
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They might, I suppose. But in the OSAS world assurance of salvation generally refers to the point at which the person accepts Christ.
 
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