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Holly3278
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Hi everyone. How does one refute the doctrine of once saved always saved? 
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VociMike
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I think this person is a pretty good refutation. Surely he thought he was saved, and those around him thought he was saved. So what are we to make of his new career?Hi everyone. How does one refute the doctrine of once saved always saved?
Another question I like to ask is, do innocent babies who die go to heaven? While we don’t know, most Protestants would say that they do. That must mean they were saved, and if OSAS is true, every single baby born is born saved, and therefore must end up in heaven. Hmm…
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Holly3278
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Perhaps that person is a good refutation. However, many people who believe in once saved always saved say that even if the person quits believing, they remain saved. They use this verse from Scripture to support this doctrine:
(2Ti 2:13) if we are faithless, he remains faithful–for he cannot deny himself.
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VociMike
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True, one could make that argument. But in reality I think very few Christians could bring themselves to say that a militant atheist, working as hard as he can against Christ’s Church, trying to turn other Christians into atheists, that such a person will be saved. It goes against everything they believe. They would also say that this person does not have the fruits of one who is saved.
That also leaves a fabulous salvation “loophole” - just believe for a day, and then do whatever you want for the rest of your life. But they would strongly deny such a possibility.
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Stillkickin
Guest
I guess here is how I would anser that:
Can we gain heaven by our own merits? Can we “work” our way to heaven? No we cannot. Salvation is a gift from God, and that is a teaching of the Catholic Church, but we have a responsibility to live our lives as good Christians or else we can lose this wonderful gift that God has bestowed upon us. In other words, we are saved by Christ’s grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.
It takes more than simply knowing Jesus is the Messiah to be saved; even Satan knows who Christ is, but that doesn’t mean he’s saved! (See James 2:19-20)
Can we work our way into Heaven?" No – absolutely not! The Catholic Church condemns the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God “owes” a person for doing the right things.
Catholics don’t see our salvation as a one-time event that can be p(name removed by moderator)ointed to an exact day and time. We don’t say, “I was saved at 3:30 pm on April 2nd 2006 when I got on my knees and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.” We think of salvation as a lifelong process, a process that began with our Baptism and as St. Paul said is “worked out” as we endeavor to “put on Christ.”
Additionally, we don’t see salvation as something that cannot be lost. (See 2 Peter 2: 20-22)
Even St. Paul himself, the one who did more than anyone else to spread the Gospel, wasn’t sure of his own salvation. (See 1 Corinthians 9:27)
I think that it is pretty arrogant to think that we are more “sure of our salvation” than the Apostle Paul.
Therefore, those who have faith and obey the will of the Father are being saved, by the grace of Christ alone. Those who don’t have faith and don’t obey the will of the Father will not be saved unless they repent and begin to have faith and keep the commandments.
Stillkickin
Can we gain heaven by our own merits? Can we “work” our way to heaven? No we cannot. Salvation is a gift from God, and that is a teaching of the Catholic Church, but we have a responsibility to live our lives as good Christians or else we can lose this wonderful gift that God has bestowed upon us. In other words, we are saved by Christ’s grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.
It takes more than simply knowing Jesus is the Messiah to be saved; even Satan knows who Christ is, but that doesn’t mean he’s saved! (See James 2:19-20)
Can we work our way into Heaven?" No – absolutely not! The Catholic Church condemns the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God “owes” a person for doing the right things.
Catholics don’t see our salvation as a one-time event that can be p(name removed by moderator)ointed to an exact day and time. We don’t say, “I was saved at 3:30 pm on April 2nd 2006 when I got on my knees and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.” We think of salvation as a lifelong process, a process that began with our Baptism and as St. Paul said is “worked out” as we endeavor to “put on Christ.”
Additionally, we don’t see salvation as something that cannot be lost. (See 2 Peter 2: 20-22)
Even St. Paul himself, the one who did more than anyone else to spread the Gospel, wasn’t sure of his own salvation. (See 1 Corinthians 9:27)
I think that it is pretty arrogant to think that we are more “sure of our salvation” than the Apostle Paul.
Therefore, those who have faith and obey the will of the Father are being saved, by the grace of Christ alone. Those who don’t have faith and don’t obey the will of the Father will not be saved unless they repent and begin to have faith and keep the commandments.
Stillkickin
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Randy_Carson
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Try this:Hi everyone. How does one refute the doctrine of once saved always saved?
**1. The Bible says that “Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness”…does this mean that Abraham was justified by faith alone? **
Your Protestant friend will say “yes”. For the purposes of this discussion, that’s fine.
2. In other words, Abraham was saved by faith alone, correct?
Sure.
3. And once you’re saved, you can’t lose your salvation, right?
Right.
4. So once Abraham got saved, he was always saved, right?
Right.
5. Being made righteous or “getting saved” in the OT is just as good as being saved in the NT, isn’t it?
Of course.
**6. Well, I’m confused. Ezekiel 33:13 reads as follows: “Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die.” If “once saved, always saved” is true and if God has told this person that he shall surely live (meaning that he has eternal security), how is it that the person shall die if he commits iniquity? **
Uh…
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Randy_Carson
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Obviously, this person wasn’t REEEEEEEEEEALLY saved. He didn’t persevere to the end.
Of course, how does any OSAS adherent know that (s)he will?
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Holly3278
Guest
This is true. Such a person does not show the fruits of being saved.
I also especially like your last paragraph. One of the things about once saved always saved is that if it were true, you could get saved and then go on and live a sinful life the rest of your life and still make it to Heaven. To me, that is just illogical.
I agree totally with this post!I guess here is how I would anser that:
Can we gain heaven by our own merits? Can we “work” our way to heaven? No we cannot. Salvation is a gift from God, and that is a teaching of the Catholic Church, but we have a responsibility to live our lives as good Christians or else we can lose this wonderful gift that God has bestowed upon us. In other words, we are saved by Christ’s grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.
It takes more than simply knowing Jesus is the Messiah to be saved; even Satan knows who Christ is, but that doesn’t mean he’s saved! (See James 2:19-20)
Can we work our way into Heaven?" No – absolutely not! The Catholic Church condemns the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God “owes” a person for doing the right things.
Catholics don’t see our salvation as a one-time event that can be p(name removed by moderator)ointed to an exact day and time. We don’t say, “I was saved at 3:30 pm on April 2nd 2006 when I got on my knees and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.” We think of salvation as a lifelong process, a process that began with our Baptism and as St. Paul said is “worked out” as we endeavor to “put on Christ.”
Additionally, we don’t see salvation as something that cannot be lost. (See 2 Peter 2: 20-22)
Even St. Paul himself, the one who did more than anyone else to spread the Gospel, wasn’t sure of his own salvation. (See 1 Corinthians 9:27)
I think that it is pretty arrogant to think that we are more “sure of our salvation” than the Apostle Paul.
Therefore, those who have faith and obey the will of the Father are being saved, by the grace of Christ alone. Those who don’t have faith and don’t obey the will of the Father will not be saved unless they repent and begin to have faith and keep the commandments.
Stillkickin
Hey that’s a pretty cool strategy! Thanks!
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bksumm
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Hey guys…this is a favorite topic of mine.
I think this verse from Romans Ch 11 is a good one that deals with the doctrine of OSAS.
You will say “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20* That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you,** provided you continue in his kindness**; otherwise you too will be cut off.
Seems to me that Paul is telling the Romans that even though they are believers, they MUST “stand fast through faith” or they will be "cut off."
If Christians don’t persevere…if they don’t work out their salvation with fear and trembling…if they don’t abide in Christ then they can be severed from Christ. Cut off doesn’t sound like the absolute assurance of OSAS.
The thing I have always disliked about OSAS is that I am not God and I don’t **presume **to judge anyone…not even myself. I am confident that I am saved but I recognize that the creator of the universe is my ultimate judge.
I think this verse from Romans Ch 11 is a good one that deals with the doctrine of OSAS.
You will say “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20* That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you,** provided you continue in his kindness**; otherwise you too will be cut off.
Seems to me that Paul is telling the Romans that even though they are believers, they MUST “stand fast through faith” or they will be "cut off."
If Christians don’t persevere…if they don’t work out their salvation with fear and trembling…if they don’t abide in Christ then they can be severed from Christ. Cut off doesn’t sound like the absolute assurance of OSAS.
The thing I have always disliked about OSAS is that I am not God and I don’t **presume **to judge anyone…not even myself. I am confident that I am saved but I recognize that the creator of the universe is my ultimate judge.
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Holly3278
Guest
Hey that’s a good verse! Thanks!Hey guys…this is a favorite topic of mine.
I think this verse from Romans Ch 11 is a good one that deals with the doctrine of OSAS.
You will say “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20* That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you,** provided you continue in his kindness**; otherwise you too will be cut off.
Seems to me that Paul is telling the Romans that even though they are believers, they MUST “stand fast through faith” or they will be "cut off."
If Christians don’t persevere…if they don’t work out their salvation with fear and trembling…if they don’t abide in Christ then they can be severed from Christ. Cut off doesn’t sound like the absolute assurance of OSAS.
The thing I have always disliked about OSAS is that I am not God and I don’t **presume **to judge anyone…not even myself. I am confident that I am saved but I recognize that the creator of the universe is my ultimate judge.
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Pax
Guest
I have cataloged over sixty passages of scripture that refute the doctrine and have written some arguments against the most common passages used to support it. If you would like the files, just send me a PM with an email address and I’ll send them to you.Hi everyone. How does one refute the doctrine of once saved always saved?
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dcana
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:banghead:
This is about the best example of “circular reasoning” I know of.
You better believe if that person has accepted Christ as his savior, believes that He suffered, died, and rose again for him, repents of his sins, and “fulfills” the requirements of salvation as known to him (please pardon the phrase - I mean like being baptised, etc) then Christ will be faithful to His promises of forgiving him his sins and opening up heaven for him. How could one possibly believe anything else, even for a moment?
God is so merciful and Jesus just longs to pour out His infinite mercy on all of us, how can one think that He withholds His mercy because somebody didn’t just quite believe enough? What does that mean anyway? Faith is not quantified. It is offered and then accepted or rejected.
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dcana
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“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
- Jesus
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Newbie2
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This is the common OSAS explanation for those who fall away after “being saved”; that they had the outward appearance of being saved, and may have thought that they were saved, but that they were deceiving themselves or were being decieved by Satan.
Trouble with this argument, is that if such happens, then there’s really no objective measure of whether or not someone is saved. If they assent to Jesus, that should do it…no exceptions, right? So they must not REEEEEEEAAAAAAALLLLLLYYYY not be assenting to Jesus.
The other and perhaps more difficult obstacle to OSAS is that the assumption of this argument is that once one is saved, he or she loses all free will to fall away, which since the person still sins i.e. is chosing to do that sin is clearly not the case that the have lost their free will! The only response, then, is that somehow one only loses their freewill to lose their salvation, but not to sin and make other freewill choices, which is a nonsensical argument not supported anywhere in scripture (which OSAS’, of course, hold as their authority).
Lastly, going directly to scripture, why would the Apostle Paul bother to warn Christians about even the possibility of apostasy if such were not possible?
This is perhaps the best argument against OSAS, directly from their authority. It’s even better if you can quote chapter and verse, which I not very good at doing.
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VociMike
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osirsas ???
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bksumm
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One of the arguments that Evangelicals use to support their doctrine of OSAS is:
I believe there are ample scriptural proofs to support the notion that one can fall away from Christ. I know this subject has been covered at length. Any thoughts?
- You can’t do anything to merit your salvation “for by grace you have been saved.”
- You can’t do anything to demerit your salvation.
I believe there are ample scriptural proofs to support the notion that one can fall away from Christ. I know this subject has been covered at length. Any thoughts?
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Peter_Dawson
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The story of Adam and Eve.Hi everyone. How does one refute the doctrine of once saved always saved?
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VociMike
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Wow, that’s an awful argument! (I know it’s not yours, that you’re just passing it on).One of the arguments that Evangelicals use to support their doctrine of OSAS is:
Thus
- You can’t do anything to merit your salvation “for by grace you have been saved.”
- You can’t do anything to demerit your salvation.
To say you can’t do anything to demerit salvation means that you must be a state where you merit salvation! But they just said that was impossible!
The correct argument is
- You can do something to gain your salvation. Otherwise all would be saved automatically, or else none would ever be saved - neither of which they believe.
- You can do something to lose your salvation.
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Newbie2
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VociMike
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Bingo.
OSIRRRSAS
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