Once Saved Always Saved!

[Linoge1]

The Baptist church in which I left, taught that when one is saved, they are always saved. This made sense to me with the scriptures they were feeding me at the time. But now as I read on, that simply can not be true, An example I now see in the Bible is the Disciple Judas who betrayed our Lord and Savior. The Baptist and Protestants that I know always say “Eh, he was never saved in the first place, he fooled everyone into thinking he was a true follower” This makes no sense. Why would God call Judas to the discipleship if Judas had no intention of really serving God?" Judas had the right intentions in the beginning but his Faith faltered and he turned from the Savior. The Baptist and Protestant way of thinking makes Jesus look like he purposely allowed a traitor in his chosen circle of disciples. We all have a free will. Is my thinking correct here, because I feel that by this example refutes the belief of OSAS?

 

[Techno2000]

The Baptist church in which I left, taught that when one is saved, they are always saved. This made sense to me with the scriptures they were feeding me at the time. But now as I read on, that simply can not be true, An example I now see in the Bible is the Disciple Judas who betrayed our Lord and Savior. The Baptist and Protestants that I know always say “Eh, he was never saved in the first place, he fooled everyone into thinking he was a true follower” This makes no sense. Why would God call Judas to the discipleship if Judas had no intention of really serving God?" Judas had the right intentions in the beginning but his Faith faltered and he turned from the Savior. The Baptist and Protestant way of thinking makes Jesus look like he purposely allowed a traitor in his chosen circle of disciples. We all have a free will. Is my thinking correct here, because I feel that by this example refutes the belief of OSAS?

Also wouldn’t it be a waste of the Devil’s time to tempt these OSAS people?

 

[NHInsider]

The Baptist church in which I left, taught that when one is saved, they are always saved. This made sense to me with the scriptures they were feeding me at the time. But now as I read on, that simply can not be true, An example I now see in the Bible is the Disciple Judas who betrayed our Lord and Savior. The Baptist and Protestants that I know always say “Eh, he was never saved in the first place, he fooled everyone into thinking he was a true follower” This makes no sense. Why would God call Judas to the discipleship if Judas had no intention of really serving God?" Judas had the right intentions in the beginning but his Faith faltered and he turned from the Savior. The Baptist and Protestant way of thinking makes Jesus look like he purposely allowed a traitor in his chosen circle of disciples. We all have a free will. Is my thinking correct here, because I feel that by this example refutes the belief of OSAS?

Well, you are right but it won’t persuade a committed OSAS person. The “never-really-saved” argument is the ultimate back-door escape.

You would think Paul’s recurring warnings to Christians not to presume upon their salvation would be sufficient to prevent people from falling into the trap, but it clearly is not.

I think it’s partly because OSAS is such a comforting doctrine. If you have adult kids who’ve stopped practicing their faith or who are living in sin it would be wonderful to be able to rely upon that five-year-old’s profession of faith to know that their eternal soul is not endangered. Sadly for those of us in that position, there is no support in Scripture for such a concept.

 

[Snerticus]

Yeah, the “they were never saved in the first place” is an excuse that has been carried down through the years.

Who’s to say that the person who says this isn’t saved? I mean, after all, years may go by and that person may fall and become atheist or muslim or buddhist or whatever. Clearly they weren’t save to begin with … right? Well they obviously thought they were at one time, so ultimately who really knows? Which brings us back to Catholicism, we are saved from sin, but we must remain in God’s Grace or we will fall. Which basically says the same thing, just looking at it from a different angle…

 

[tobbias88]

Lucifer, a being more enlightened than any mere mortal, closer to the Godhead than we could possibly bear, magnificent in all ways, also fell.

God’s greatest gift to all his created beings is Free Will. We choose damnation or paradise; He does not predestine your ultimate fate. He allows you to accept or reject HIm.

Even the ‘holiest’ of us can fall at the last hurdle.Pray lest you enter into temptation willingly. Man’s and Lucifer’s sin was pride - *we can make it without God *-- a big big mistake. And all western nations (unlike the islamic countries) right now are making this huge mistake. This is why the West is destined to fall. We have written God out of the equation. Foolish foolish people.

 

[jpjd]

Your example of Judas is a good one to illustrate that OSAS makes no sense. I have always asked these questions to the OSAS crowd, and I have yet to receive a response that makes sense:

“How do you as a Protestant stay righteous when you sin? And if you don’t stay righteous, doesn’t that conflict with OSAS? And if you do stay righteous, how can the Holy Spirit be in the presence of sin?”

I’m glad you have come to know the Truth, Linoge1.

 

[Thing]

13 And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen. 14 For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. 15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

??

 

[COPLAND_3]

Yeah, I used to teach and defend that doctrine when I was a Southern Baptist. That false teaching was a huge part our our belief then, and what is funny is some of them hold that doctrine as an essential part of the faith, and if you don’t believe it then you are not “saved.” Personally for me, I did not reject the doctrine by any certain arguement against it or by some passage of Scripture, it was when I discovered the Early Church Fathers and learned that the ancient Church was Catholic, not Baptist. Once I realized that there really was on Church that Christ established I had no problem believing what that Church taught, and OSAS was not part of that.

 

[Cachonga]

I had a friend in college who believed OSAS. He had made an altar call and was baptised at 11 years of age. He didn’t drink, smoke or curse (ok, maybe a little cursing), but he was a womanizer. I asked him point blank what he thought would happen if he was engaged in adultery when the Lord came back to rapture His church. He looked me right in the eye and said, “She’ll be very surprised when she finds herself all alone.” I agree that OSAS is not scriptural, and that it is a lie right out of hell itself.

However, I do beleive in the security of the believer (not the same thing as OSAS). John 6:37 says, “All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.” (DR). Notice, the Father gives people to Jesus, and He will not cast them out. Even when Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ, Jesus told him that this was given to him by the Father. As for the question of Judas Iscariot, Acts 1:16 makes it clear that he was chosen to fulfill prophecy. I think the parable of the sower is helpful in understanding this. The seed is the Word. Some falls on hard ground and is eaten up by the birds (I think we all know people who have hard hearts towards God). Some falls among rocks, grows up quickly, but withers and dies when the sun comes up. These are people who “believe” (they make an altar call, get baptized and join a church), but when persecution comes along, they fall away (Paul mentions some like this by name in some of his epistles). Some seed falls among weeds and thorns. They grow, but they get choked by the weeds and thorns. Ananias and Sapphira are examples of this (see Acts 5). Finally, there is seed that falls on good ground and produces fruit. These are the true believers who the Father has given to the Son (read all of John 6).

As for why Paul gives warnings in his epistles, remember, he is writing to the churches, and there are people there whose hearts are “stoney ground” and “among weeds and thorns” alongside true believers. We do need to check ourselves, and Paul (and others) gives us a good measure to check ourselves against. Even John says, “They went out from us, but** they were not of us**. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us.” (1 John 2:19 DR emphasis mine). Saving faith is a continuous looking to Jesus, not a one time, emotion filled response to a sermon, shaking a preachers hand, baptism, etc…

And where is our “free will”? Isn’t God the potter? Aren’t we the clay? Does the clay tell the potter what it wants to be? Does the clay seek out the potter? Did God ask Pharoah if He could harden his heart? Did God ask Paul permission before striking him down on the road to Damascus? As Jesus says, “You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go, and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.” (John 15:16 DR emphasis mine).

Hope this answers some questions.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I had a friend in college who believed OSAS. He had made an altar call and was baptised at 11 years of age. He didn’t drink, smoke or curse (ok, maybe a little cursing), but he was a womanizer. I asked him point blank what he thought would happen if he was engaged in adultery when the Lord came back to rapture His church. He looked me right in the eye and said, “She’ll be very surprised when she finds herself all alone.” I agree that OSAS is not scriptural, and that it is a lie right out of hell itself.

However, I do beleive in the security of the believer (not the same thing as OSAS). John 6:37 says, “All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.” (DR). Notice, the Father gives people to Jesus, and He will not cast them out. Even when Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ, Jesus told him that this was given to him by the Father. As for the question of Judas Iscariot, Acts 1:16 makes it clear that he was chosen to fulfill prophecy. I think the parable of the sower is helpful in understanding this. The seed is the Word. Some falls on hard ground and is eaten up by the birds (I think we all know people who have hard hearts towards God). Some falls among rocks, grows up quickly, but withers and dies when the sun comes up. These are people who “believe” (they make an altar call, get baptized and join a church), but when persecution comes along, they fall away (Paul mentions some like this by name in some of his epistles). Some seed falls among weeds and thorns. They grow, but they get choked by the weeds and thorns. Ananias and Sapphira are examples of this (see Acts 5). Finally, there is seed that falls on good ground and produces fruit. These are the true believers who the Father has given to the Son (read all of John 6).

As for why Paul gives warnings in his epistles, remember, he is writing to the churches, and there are people there whose hearts are “stoney ground” and “among weeds and thorns” alongside true believers. We do need to check ourselves, and Paul (and others) gives us a good measure to check ourselves against. Even John says, “They went out from us, but** they were not of us**. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us.” (1 John 2:19 DR emphasis mine). Saving faith is a continuous looking to Jesus, not a one time, emotion filled response to a sermon, shaking a preachers hand, baptism, etc…

And where is our “free will”? Isn’t God the potter? Aren’t we the clay? Does the clay tell the potter what it wants to be? Does the clay seek out the potter? Did God ask Pharoah if He could harden his heart? Did God ask Paul permission before striking him down on the road to Damascus? As Jesus says, “You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go, and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.” (John 15:16 DR emphasis mine).

Hope this answers some questions.

I too believe in a form of the “security of the believer,” that is God will always stay true to His promises, but we in turn have a responsibility. I see Catholics thinking they have to take the most extreme opposite position than the typical Baptist who has the extreme OSAS position, which is not accurate either, as if God is somehow extremely moody and fickle about our fate. God wants each and everyone of us to be with Him and He continually goes all out to make that happen. I believe that if I follow God with all my heart and follow His truth to the best of my ability, then I feel comfortable when crossing over to the otherside of life. I really can’t stand the impression that I get from some priests and other Catholic teachers that teach that even if you follow God’s ways and live a holy life then you still may end up in Hell. God is just, and He has not given us the Church and infallible teachings to then let someone who has followed it to the best of their ability to still go to Hell. If we die in the state of grace, then I trust that God will hold true to His promise that we got to Heaven, and I think that doubting that is to doubt the Church and to doubt God.

 

[Holly3278]

Here is a great article about the false and heretical doctrine of once saved always saved:

catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp

 

[MonFrere]

I too believe in a form of the “security of the believer,” that is God will always stay true to His promises, but we in turn have a responsibility.

’
I think that’s it in a nutshell. I think Jesus statements were to help us when we go through “the valley of the shadow of death”. We can have rock solid faith that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit will NEVER leave us. He will NEVER leave us slip out of His hands. But to construe these passages of great comfort to mean that we therefore can live recklessly is simply contrary to scripture - tradition - and frankly, common sense.

The common sense found in our Catholic faith is lost on those who remove themselves from the witness the Church gives to the scriptures. For 500 years our Protestant brothers have been trying to reinvent the wheel and that baby still won’t roll!!

MonFrere

 

[1believer1]

I too believe in a form of the “security of the believer,” that is God will always stay true to His promises, but we in turn have a responsibility. I see Catholics thinking they have to take the most extreme opposite position than the typical Baptist who has the extreme OSAS position, which is not accurate either, as if God is somehow extremely moody and fickle about our fate. God wants each and everyone of us to be with Him and He continually goes all out to make that happen. I believe that if I follow God with all my heart and follow His truth to the best of my ability, then I feel comfortable when crossing over to the otherside of life. I really can’t stand the impression that I get from some priests and other Catholic teachers that teach that even if you follow God’s ways and live a holy life then you still may end up in Hell. God is just, and He has not given us the Church and infallible teachings to then let someone who has followed it to the best of their ability to still go to Hell. If we die in the state of grace, then I trust that God will hold true to His promise that we got to Heaven, and I think that doubting that is to doubt the Church and to doubt God.

I am not sure as to the teaching that you heard from a Catholic priest as to your ending up in Hell. Please give some more information … it is possible that you mis-interpereted what they said … or it is possible that they were not teaching the Catholic church’s teaching. God’s mercy is beyond our ability to understand. If we die in a state of grace , … but some need to “suffer for our sins” we will spend some time in Purgatory with the knowledge ( not while we are in Purgatory ) at after a time we will be in Heaven.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I am not sure as to the teaching that you heard from a Catholic priest as to your ending up in Hell. Please give some more information … it is possible that you mis-interpereted what they said … or it is possible that they were not teaching the Catholic church’s teaching. God’s mercy is beyond our ability to understand. If we die in a state of grace , … but some need to “suffer for our sins” we will spend some time in Purgatory with the knowledge ( not while we are in Purgatory ) at after a time we will be in Heaven.

I won’t give the names of those from EWTN that I heard discussing it, because like you said, it may have been the way I perceived it, and I don’t want to hinder their effectiveness by putting that into the back of anyone’s mind on this forum. But they were discussing this topic of OSAS and they were emphasizing that no matter how you live you cannot have any assurance at all that you won’t go to Hell. Granted there is a level of reality to that because God is ultimately the Judge and not us, but the way they came across made getting to Heaven seem like such an uncertain journey, and quite fearful at that. In other words it made it sound more doom and gloom than a wonderful new life in Christ. Like I said in the above post, sometimes Catholics think they have to take the extreme opposite position than from some Protestants.

 

[Cachonga]

If I’m not mistaken, to claim you know you’re going to heaven would be considered a “sin of presumption”. How does that relates to 1 John 5:13 ("**I write this to you who believe **in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. " RSV emphasis mine)? I believe I have been drawn by the Father, given to Jesus, and will enter Heaven when I leave this life. I base this belief on Scripture. Is it presumptious to believe what God inspired to be written down? Keep in mind, I do not agree with OSAS! I do, however, believe in the security of the believer. I believe Paul addressed OSAS in his letter to the Romans (“What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?” Rom 6:15-16 RSV).

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

When asked “What must I do to possess eternal life” Jesus told a man “YOU KNOW THE LAW”, then the commandments were listed. The bible says many times says things like:

God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book–Rev 22:19

Hebrews 3:12–Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an evil and unfaithful heart, so as to** forsake the living God**.

John 16:11-- “I have said all this to you to keep you from falling away.”

John 15:2–Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Ezekiel 33:18–“When a virtuous man turns away from what is right and** does wrong, he shall die for it**.”

Hebrews 6:4-6-- For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and** then have fallen away**, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.

1 Timothy 5:8–And whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

I think this last verse says it best:

Romans 11:22-24–Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you,** provided that you continue in his kindness. **Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

We can know if at the moment saved by our deeds, being in mortal sin we can know we are not saved. We cannot know if we will saved unless God tells us, as He did some of the Saints like the Prophet Daniel

 

[adriancombe]

If I’m not mistaken, to claim you know you’re going to heaven would be considered a “sin of presumption”. How does that relates to 1 John 5:13 ("**I write this to you who believe **in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. " RSV emphasis mine)? I believe I have been drawn by the Father, given to Jesus, and will enter Heaven when I leave this life. I base this belief on Scripture. Is it presumptious to believe what God inspired to be written down? Keep in mind, I do not agree with OSAS! I do, however, believe in the security of the believer. I believe Paul addressed OSAS in his letter to the Romans (“What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?” Rom 6:15-16 RSV).

The verb know in 1 John 5:13 (eidhte) is a form of eidon, Strong’s number 1492, see here. It is in the subjunctive, so it indicates a desired state, not factual
condition. Also, there are other meanings to eidon, including ‘to experience’. So it could simply mean he is wishing that experience for them.

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

We can know if we have eternal life, after being baptized, or after repenting of sins at confession, keeping the commandments and staying in Grace. We can lose eternal life by sinning

 

[adriancombe]

We can know if we have eternal life, after being baptized, or after repenting of sins at confession, keeping the commandments and staying in Grace. We can lose eternal life by sinning

I am not so sure. I remember reading a lot of the Saints, when they had a direct vision from Jesus or Mary, the first question they would ask was: “Am I in the state of grace?”

When you read the Catechism, it sounds like they don’t want us receiving Communion *unless *we are in the state of grace (duh) which **implies **we can know but does not state it outright.

But then when you read Spe Salvi the tone of the whole document is one of hope (surprise surprise) not certainty. However I do not see where he really nails it on the head so to speak and tells us what we can or cannot know.

 

[Cachonga]

adriancombe:

The verb know in 1 John 5:13 (eidhte) is a form of eidon, Strong’s number 1492, see here. It is in the subjunctive, so it indicates a desired state, not factual
condition. Also, there are other meanings to eidon, including ‘to experience’. So it could simply mean he is wishing that experience for them.

Of course John wants believers ‘to experience’ the reality that we are saved, that’s why he’s writing this. I find it interesting that your own reference shows ‘to experience’ as option 1e. Option 1 is ‘to see’; 1a is ‘to perceive with the eyes’; 1b is ‘to perceive by any of the senses’; 1c is ‘to perceive, notice, discern, discover’; 1d breaks down into nearly half a dozen subgroups; 1e (which seems to be your definition) is ‘to experience any state or condition’. On the other hand, option 2 is ‘to know’; 2a is ‘to know of anything’; 2b breaks down into about 3 other subgroups; 2c is ‘to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1 Th 5:12)’. Tell me, have you exegeted the entire verse, or did you just go to the Strong’s Concordance to check out this one word?