"Once saved always saved"?

[kingal86]

The “once saved always saved” thing some Protestant churches in America have makes no sense to me. I don’t understand how that works: can they sin or even murder someone and still remain saved? Or if someone sins does that mean they weren’t really saved?

Is it the born-agains who have that doctrine? I’m a bit unclear on where it comes from. Have I misunderstood it?

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

The “once saved always saved” thing some Protestant churches in America have makes no sense to me. I don’t understand how that works: can they sin or even murder someone and still remain saved? Or if someone sins does that mean they weren’t really saved?

Is it the born-agains who have that doctrine? I’m a bit unclear on where it comes from. Have I misunderstood it?

There are different versions of this doctrine. The one I’m most familiar with teaches that you are saved by holding the right beliefs and that whatever sins you commit cannot cause you to lose salvation.

 

[kingal86]

That sounds very strange and illogical. So they can murder people but if they hold the right doctrine and accept Jesus as their Personal Saviour, they believe they are saved?

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

That sounds very strange and illogical. So they can murder people but if they hold the right doctrine and accept Jesus as their Personal Saviour, they believe they are saved?

Yes there are some preachers who do teach that.

 

[runningdude]

Originally Posted by kingal86 View Post
That sounds very strange and illogical. So they can murder people but if they hold the right doctrine and accept Jesus as their Personal Saviour, they believe they are saved?

Yup, and as a word of caution, If you argue about the logic, the conversation can get unpleasant very quickly (Elmer Fudd voice)

 

[The_Reginator]

I struggle with my mother over that one.
She believes (and quotes scripture to back it up) that since Jesus died for all our sins, sins are automatically forgiven for anyone who “has accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior”.
(Due to her age and strong faith I try not to say too much.)

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

I think of salvation as being more like a journey now. If you get too caught up in whether or not you are “saved” right now then you get into the mindset of “Now I’m saved, now I’m not, now I’m saved now I’m not” whenever you sin. The OSAS doctrine is kind of an extreme reaction to that way of thinking. In the end only God knows who will make it to Heaven and hopefully everyone makes it.

 

[kingal86]

Yup, and as a word of caution, If you argue about the logic, the conversation can get unpleasant very quickly (Elmer Fudd voice)

Hmm…I don’t think I’ve met anyone who believes that yet (as far as I know), I’ve never heard of outside of American TV and websites. So hopefully I’ll avoid arguments.

I’m pretty sure the evangelicals in the Christian Union at my uni in England believe God punishes you for sins even after baptism (otherwise they presumably wouldn’t need to refrain from sex before marriage since they’re already saved ), though I guess I never discussed it with them so can’t be sure.

I don’t think most secular people in Britain would understand the “once saved always saved doctrine” at all, it goes against the vague idea most people have of Christians’ view of the afterlife from popular culture, and to me at least goes against morality and logic in general.

 

[nickybr38]

I always found great comfort in the OSAS doctrine.

The belief that no MATTER what God would love me was so wonderful. I, personally, never felt it gave me carte blanche to commit whatever sins I desired - instead it gave me the freedom to make mistakes without falling into despair.

I don’t believe OSAS leads to lax Christianity anymore then a Confessional does. I’ve met MANY Catholics who behaved in less then ‘Christianly’ ways because they believed they could go to Confession at the end of the week and be absolved. Just as I’ve met Christian’s who believe in OSAS so they do things they wouldn’t otherwise.

These people, to me, are children rebelling against their parent. Pushing the boundaries as much as possible to see how much they can get away with while still being loved.

The good thing is God can and DOES forgive us no matter the depth of our sin so long as we come to Him with true repentance.

 

[kingal86]

I think of salvation as being more like a journey now… In the end only God knows who will make it to Heaven and hopefully everyone makes it.

Yeah that’s how I’ve always thought of it. It seems to be very presumptuous to me for someone to say they know they’ll go to Heaven.

 

[kingal86]

I always found great comfort in the OSAS doctrine.

The belief that no MATTER what God would love me was so wonderful. I, personally, never felt it gave me carte blanche to commit whatever sins I desired - instead it gave me the freedom to make mistakes without falling into despair.

I guess with the murder thing I was taking it to a bit of an extreme…

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

I always found great comfort in the OSAS doctrine.

I believed in that doctrine for a little while. I’m curious as to what would happen to an apostate though because the implication is that a true believer could not stop believing, in Christianity, yet I did. I’ve never found an answer for that.

 

[nickybr38]

I believed in that doctrine for a little while. I’m curious as to what would happen to an apostate though because the implication is that a true believer could not stop believing, in Christianity, yet I did. I’ve never found an answer for that.

That wasn’t what I was taught. :\ I was taught once you were ‘marked’ by God no one and nothing could take you from Him. It had nothing to do with whether or not you were a true believer… and if you left the church the belief was that God would bring you back in His time because you were His lost sheep.

But then I might have been understanding it wrong. My doctrine was very confused since my mother was a church hopper.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

That wasn’t what I was taught. :\ I was taught once you were ‘marked’ by God no one and nothing could take you from Him. It had nothing to do with whether or not you were a true believer… and if you left the church the belief was that God would bring you back in His time because you were His lost sheep.

But then I might have been understanding it wrong. My doctrine was very confused since my mother was a church hopper.

That makes sense. I know from personal experience that try as I may to stop believing I can’t do it for very long. I know that the Catholic Church teaches that some are predestined though no one is predestined to hell. I have had troubles with this doctrine but it does seem to relate to my experience. I’m not assuming that I’m predestined for Heaven though, only God knows that.

 

[jmcrae]

I believed in that doctrine for a little while. I’m curious as to what would happen to an apostate though because the implication is that a true believer could not stop believing, in Christianity, yet I did. I’ve never found an answer for that.

I had a friend (he’s still a friend, but I haven’t seen him in a really long time) who went from being a “Once saved always saved” believer and preacher, to being an atheist. It didn’t happen suddenly - it happened in the usual way, actually - he met a nice girl, got into bed with her because he couldn’t think of any good reason not to, got her pregnant (because that’s the one thing he didn’t think of, when he was trying to think of reasons not to go to bed with her), married her because that was the right thing to do (she was not a Christian), and then just stopped going to Church and drifted away from his faith and stopped believing in God.

When I tell that story to people who believe in Once Saved Always Saved, they either say that he was never a true believer in the first place, or else that, somewhere in his heart, he is still a believer, and he will return to the practice of his faith before he dies.

 

[thegrons]

This doctrine came from Calvin’s doctrine of limited atoment. His doctrine can be summed up in TULIP The P is for perseverence of the saints or OSAS (Once saved always saved). It might be logical but a valid argument doesn’t have to be sound.

There are at least 25 scripture passages that implicity and explicity say that you can fall from grace. Jesus said the one who endures to the end shall be saved, and in Revelation He said if you stand strong until the end I (Jesus) will not erase your name from the book of life. This implies that it can be erased.

Believe me your salvation is only as good as your faith and if your faith goes “shipwreck” as Wesley put it…so goes your salvation.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

I had a friend (he’s still a friend, but I haven’t seen him in a really long time) who went from being a “Once saved always saved” believer and preacher, to being an atheist. It didn’t happen suddenly - it happened in the usual way, actually - he met a nice girl, got into bed with her because he couldn’t think of any good reason not to, got her pregnant (because that’s the one thing he didn’t think of, when he was trying to think of reasons not to go to bed with her), married her because that was the right thing to do (she was not a Christian), and then just stopped going to Church and drifted away from his faith and stopped believing in God.

When I tell that story to people who believe in Once Saved Always Saved, they either say that he was never a true believer in the first place, or else that, somewhere in his heart, he is still a believer, and he will return to the practice of his faith before he dies.

I found that in the end salvation based purely on having the right beliefs actually becomes rather complicated. It seems as if only theolgians can be saved. Salvation by pure doctrine if you know what I mean. Anyways it’s a fact that someone can completely lose all faith so that does kind of throw a wrench in their doctrine. Of course this leads to the question of whether or not an apostate can be saved. The Catholic Church does teach that I’m pretty certain, if not then I’m in alot of trouble.

 

[thegrons]

www.eternalsecurity.us

Regarding Apostates see Hebrews 6:4-7 and I believe cpts 11 of Hebrews. “for if one has been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit and then fall away it is impossible to renew him to repentence…” At what point someone goes from a mere backslider to an apostate…only God knows.

This doctrine was never taught by the ante-Nicene church. It became popular when Luther and Calvin revived Augustine’s views. TULIP goes like this: T=Total depravity or inability. Man is so totally depraved that he is unable to place faith in God for salvation so even the faith is given to him as a gift (vomit). U=Unconditional election, God’s election as to who will go to heaven and who will go to hell was determined in etermity past by His own decree and not His foreknowledge of the faithful. I will add here that the terms elect and chosen mean “objects of divine favor” and not the narrow interpertation of “being selected” Jesus was called God’s Elect and Chosen one; using the limited view that most people use; are we to assume that Jesus was selected from many sons of God? L=linited atonement, Christ death was limited to only the elect and He didn’t die for all. This is the easistest of the TULIP to disprove. I=irresistable grace: If God has elected you to salvation, when He calls you cannot resist but have to come to Him. P=perserverence of the Saints or “once saved always saved” If you are totally depraved and God unconditionally elected you for salvation and Christ died for you, and His grace is irresistable, then you will persevere until the end.

Most Baptists and Evagelicals teach 3 to 5 of these points. Even though this is logically valid, it is a unsound argument because the premises are false. The bible tells us that Salvation is proviso or conditional on our persevering until the end. Yet many Protestants somehow think that just because their doctrine is valid…it is true. Frankly the bible is full of mystery and unanswered questions. The bible is a “partial revelation” and not complete and will therefore yeild some incoherence in ones theology; so what! When it comes to systematic coherent theology vs the bible…I go with the bible.

 

[poetryforjesus]

The mentality of OSAS seems to suggest that salvation is a piece of exterior prize that we gain by trusting in Jesus. But is salvation really something extrinsic? Or is it our very relationship with Christ? If we stain this relationship with Him by mortal sin and cut off our sweet communion with Him, what salvation can we even speak of? Only Jesus can give us salvation, because only He is our salvation, only He can give us happiness. If we choose to sin grievously against Him, we cut ourselves off from Him by our own will, then we have lost Him. We wouldn’t have any salvation that has any meaning.

Am I seeing it this way because I’m a woman? Women tend to be more about relationships. To me, the only salvation there is consists of knowing Jesus and loving Him in thought, deeds, and inmost being. Apart from that, there is no happiness, no salvation. Therefore, a person cannot commit a mortal sin and still have his salvation, without repentance, of course.

 

[arkenbergcn]

I find the belief in OSAS quite ironic. No protestant would ever believe in the doctrine of indulgences, but yet some of them believe that once they make an act of belief (which is a work) and are “saved” their sins have no affect on their salvation. Talk about an indulgence! Also, nowhere does scripture state this OSAS formula or imply it. If anyone would have known about OSAS it would have been St. Paul and yet his epistles show that even he wasn’t assured of his salvation. If anyone belived in Christ it was St. Paul.

“that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. (Phil 3: 10-11)

Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. (1 Corinthians 9:26-27)