Once Saved Always Saved?

[Cat_Herder]

Grace alone, faith alone.

Then why did you say that doing the Master’s will is what matters when you explained the parables (in this post)?

Lots of works are involved, but as per Paul, works don’t save you.

What is the difference between doing the Master’s works and doing the Master’s will?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Don’t be a pain, PR.

Why don’t you answer our questions? And I don’t just mean the ones that I’ve sent you–but the very many questions from many posters that you have deflected throughout this thread?

Are you just here to promote an agenda?

 

[PRmerger]

Don’t be a pain, PR.

This response is quite telling, Sig.

You know, Sig, I like you. It’s good that you are here. You are getting wonderful, thoughtful, charitable apologia to things you’ve never even considered. And a seed is being planted.

But I’ve seen this before. Right before a newbie gets banned he gets a little hot under the collar because he realizes he’s in over his head with stuff he’s never considered before.

Just like here: now you’re being asked to provide references for this fictitious “meticulous record keeping” scenario. And you’re squirming.

And you’re getting rude.

I offer you this as friendly advice, because you need to be here.

Take a deep breath. Be charitable.

Learn.

You may not have an answer to the question, but I’m glad the seed has been planted.

You may file my question: “If the Church is not infallible, and you acknowledge that it was indeed a Church that discerned the canon of Scripture for you, where did she go wrong? What books were omitted and what were retained that you think were erroneous?” in the folder called:
Things that make you go

 

[fhansen]

It seems the context in which the Holy Spirit intended for James’ words to be understood means nothing to you. So be it.

It seems you’ve set the context according to your own convenience. So be it.

And I know that what you just said is a quibble without merit.

If you’re going to discuss what I believe, accept correction regarding the terminology.

If you’re going to discuss what I believe stop making distinctions w/differences-that’s where the quibble began.

Well, if you believe what Jesus said in John 5:24, you’d understand that for the believer there is no dire consequence. He has passed from life to death, and doesn’t come into judgment.

If you believe what Jesus said in Matt 25:31-46, you’d understand there’s a lot more to it than faith alone. You’ve got to take* all* of scripture in context, and even then you’ll still end up confused if that’s all you have to go on.

The section of Paul’s argument to which I’m referring has nothing to with legalism, and everything to do with how a man is made right with His God—by grace, through faith, without works. Paul is nothing if not consistent in his position.

Paul’s main opposition to his doctrine of grace through faith is legalism.

You can’t prove that. Where does James say that? It’s conjecture and something you probably heard on apologetics tape, or read in an apologetics article.

No, can’t say as I have- it just fits the bill perfectly-that’s why faith alone is such a false and novel doctrine.

 

[Sig]

It seems you’ve set the context according to your own convenience. So be it.

The context is in the passage for all to see.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pitcharan,

I like your examples… There are 3 excellent ones locate in the 25th Chapter of Matthew. Here is a link: usccb.org/bible/matthew/25

In my opinion therer really is a wealth of information here - beginning with the free will choices of the 5 foolish virgins, the lazy servant and those who simplyh decided that they did not have to help their fellow man. These were conscience actions - and God’s Grace was there trying to make a change in the outcome … **IFAND ONLY IF **the participants freely chose to cooperate with the Grace of God.

But, having a free will is only the start - we have to be motivated to follow Chist whan it is not easy. We hve to use that motivation to turn mere ‘nice thoughts’ into real charity.

Making progress int he Spiritual Life requires that we be attentive to God’s Will (starting with, “Do good and avoid evil”. Of course there are always those who ponder what is good … and what is evil. There was a lawyer that responded to Chist in a similar way with, “And who is my neighbor?” so as to evade the connection with the Samaritan that Christ was trying to make. (Luke 10:25-37)

God bless

Whenever we freely choose evil over good, we reject the grace of God:
Eg. (i) The Levite and Priest who did nothing for the injured traveller who was later nursed by the Good Samaritan.
(ii) The rich man who was unmoved by the plight of Lazurus the beggar
(iii) The countless occasions when we succumbed to a sinful urge after overruling our concience

 

[Cat_Herder]

It seems the context in which the Holy Spirit intended for James’ words to be understood means nothing to you. So be it.

In view of the fact that Paul asserted that all men would be judged by their works in Romans 2, how do you discern “the context in which the Holy Spirit intended” for any given Scripture to be understood?

Well, if you believe what Jesus said in John 5:24, you’d understand that for the believer there is no dire consequence. He has passed from life to death, and doesn’t come into judgment.

If a person is justified then why do they still have to suffer death?

The section of Paul’s argument to which I’m referring has nothing to with legalism, and everything to do with how a man is made right with His God—by grace, through faith, without works.

Paul is nothing if not consistent in his position.

Then what’s up with Romans 2:1-12?

 

[Cat_Herder]

The context is in the passage for all to see.

Which passage? There are so many passages by so many inspired writers that all say man will be judged by works.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cat Herder,

He really just wants to play a game - and trying to get him to respond is simply part of it. In my opinion, you are just wasting your time. The question is presented and he just ignores it. Really, it is time to move on…as we pray for him.

God bless

Why don’t you answer our questions? And I don’t just mean the ones that I’ve sent you–but the very many questions from many posters that you have deflected throughout this thread?

Are you just here to promote an agenda?

 

[Sig]

If you believe what Jesus said in Matt 25:31-46, you’d understand there’s a lot more to it than faith alone. You’ve got to take* all* of scripture in context, and even then you’ll still end up confused if that’s all you have to go on.

Mt 25:31-46 confirms what Jesus said in Jn 5:24, and what Jesus said about knowing men by their fruit, and that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish (Jn 10:28) and what James said concerning a saving faith in James 2: A saving faith works.

 

[Sig]

Hi, Cat Herder,

He really just wants to play a game - and trying to get him to respond is simply part of it. In my opinion, you are just wasting your time. The question is presented and he just ignores it. Really, it is time to move on…as we pray for him.

God bless

If he’s responding to me, Cat Herder’s on my ignore list, and there Cat Herder will stay.

He keeps saying I’m on his, but then he keeps responding to me.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Hi, Cat Herder,

He really just wants to play a game - and trying to get him to respond is simply part of it. In my opinion, you are just wasting your time. The question is presented and he just ignores it. Really, it is time to move on…as we pray for him.

God bless

Well, if the moderators aren’t going to purge his posts then we need to get the exceptions on the record. These threads stay up indefinitely, and we need to make sure that future lurkers can tell from browsing the thread that there are serious problems with his theology.

The real reason to participate in these CAF discussions is not to convert the Protestant but to demonstrate to future visitors discerning the Faith that Catholicism is correct.

As for Sig, if he wants to play a Soviet mind game in which he just moves blocks around instead of answering questions, then he should go do so on an appropriate website.

God bless you too.

 

[Cat_Herder]

If he’s responding to me, Cat Herder’s on my ignore list, and there Cat Herder will stay.

He keeps saying I’m on his, but then he keeps responding to me.

You aren’t the audience. I think no one here cares about trying to carry on a discussion with you anymore.

The more you ignore the questions the more they will stack up, and unlike Tetris, you can’t get rid of them by just making lines.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, if the moderators aren’t going to purge his posts then we need to get the exceptions on the record. These threads stay up indefinitely, and we need to make sure that future lurkers can tell from browsing the thread that there are serious problems with his theology.

The real reason to participate in these CAF discussions is not to convert the Protestant but to demonstrate to future visitors discerning the Faith that Catholicism is correct.

As for Sig, if he wants to play a Soviet mind game in which he just moves blocks around instead of answering questions, then he should go do so on an appropriate website.

God bless you too.

Yes, I believe that the lurkers are the best place where apologetics seeds are planted.

 

[PRmerger]

You aren’t the audience. I think no one here cares about trying to carry on a discussion with you anymore.

The more you ignore the questions the more they will stack up, and unlike Tetris, you can’t get rid of them by just making lines.

Sadly, I think you are right, Cat.

But, again, it’s for the lurkers (esp. the Protestant ones) who may have never thought, “Huh, I wonder where the Bible came from? I know it didn’t come from heaven, all leather-bound and in King James’ English, , so who discerned what books belong in it?”

And then the logical next question is: how could this Church be fallible if I keep quoting from its fruit.

Something most Protestants have never considered.

 

[Cat_Herder]

(Edited)

Three years ago I was a Protestant lurking on CAF looking for answers. And yes, I started asking questions like that… and the rest is history.

So people who browse this thread in the future will judge Sig and his efforts to defend Calvinism, or whatever he was trying to defend, by all of the questions he was unable to answer and all of his waffling on what actually causes salvation.

 

[Sig]

(Edited)

The topic is OSAS, PR.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The topic is OSAS, PR.

You’re the one who dragged us through predestination, faith and works, infused versus imputed righteousness and any number of tangents. How about getting that log out of your eye before you complain about the splinters?

 

[PRmerger]

As I’ve stated, speaking for reformed protestants, they take the entirety of Scripture, and the entierty of the Word of God.

Not just James.

This brings to mind an interesting quote I read from apologist Mark Shea:

The original 16th-century revolutionaries had the mysterious conviction that you could attack a procession of Catholic worshippers, knock the miter off the priest’s head, dash the Eucharist to the ground, burn the vestments, smash the images, and overturn the altar – **yet inexplicably seize their Holy Book and declare it an infallible oracle. **source

File under:
*Things that make you go *

 

[fhansen]

Mt 25:31-46 confirms what Jesus said in Jn 5:24, and what Jesus said about knowing men by their fruit, and that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish (Jn 10:28) and what James said concerning a saving faith in James 2: A saving faith works.

Yes, and without those works we aren’t saved. Jesus said we’ll be judged by those works, in fact, St John of the Cross put it more succinctly, spelling out the true path beyond which faith must travel:

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.

He had come to very close proximity with God. And this spells out that the Law must be fulfilled, to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor and ourselves, albeit fulfilled by grace.