Once Saved Always Saved?

[tqualey]

Hi, Fhansen,

Just look at his last dozen posts - just sniping, arguing and being non-responsive. He has yet to disprove any Catholic position with Scripture - just demand Scriptural text for Catholic positions which have been given by many posters.

All of the post he has delivered have been quite empty of content but long on bluster.

It is the only tune he knows.

God bless

maybe you wouldn’t mind demonstrating your empty assertions.

 

[paul_c]

What is this phrase “fell from grace”? Where is it in Scripture? Isn’t this whole thread about whether one can “fall from grace”?

-Tina “Rooting for the Elect” G

Tina, you do understand that scripture is replete with discussions about grace right? You can get grace and you can lose grace. The fact that the actual phrase “fall from grace” may not be in your scriptural translations, doesn’t mean the context isn’t abundantly clear. After all, the term Trinity isn’t in scripture either.

 

[paul_c]

Hi, Fhansen,

Just look at his last dozen posts - just sniping, arguing and being non-responsive. He has yet to disprove any Catholic position with Scripture - just demand Scriptural text for Catholic positions which have been given by many posters.

All of the post he has delivered have been quite empty of content but long on bluster.

It is the only tune he knows.

God bless

Don’t get frustrated. He knows this too. Don’t be surprised if he wratches it up again a few notches and then goes into radio silence…

 

[Pitcharan]

FYI, as a Roman Catholic, you are required to believe, de fide, that God "predestines and pre-defines a select number of humans to eternal salvation."

Do you still think it’s the funniest folly you ever heard?

FYI, as a Roman Catholic, I am required to believe, the CCC and NOT any other heresy however cleverly it is made to appear like catholic teaching. I know that God pre-destines a few and I also know that He excludes none. You and Tina are trying to twist the truth by saying that Salvation is limited to the pre-destined few and others are hell bound. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

By the way, Sig! why are deliberately changing track? You had persistently demanded proof of ‘salvation being lost after it was given’ and post #718 was addressed to you. You conveniently evade it and divert focus now.

 

[TinaG]

Funniest folly that I ever heard. Why would God desire salvation for all after predestining and pre-defining a select (elect) few?

I would be slow to call it “funniest folly”, friend. Be careful of suddenly discovering you may be mocking what you profess to believe. But it is a very good question.

Do we know all the ways of God? Can we explain Him in all His actions? No.

You see the same sort of thing in Mark 14:27-31, where Jesus tells them they will all fall away, and then tells them in 14:38 to pray that they not come into temptation. You see the same thing with Pharoah’s heart being hardened by God, and then being punished for having a hardened heart. We see this pattern throughout Scripture.

God desires all men to be saved. Not all men are saved. So we ask why. Is man capable of thwarting God’s desires? No. God is not weak. We see, repeatedly, that he “turns the king’s heart like water” and that He is sovereign. Supreme. No one thwarts His will, it is repeatedly said. So there is a reason not all are saved, and that reason lies in Him, not in us. So God chooses the elect “before the foundation of the world.”

-Tina “Not a Semi-Pelagian” G

 

[Sig]

Tina, you do understand that scripture is replete with discussions about grace right? You can get grace and you can lose grace. The fact that the actual phrase “fall from grace” may not be in your scriptural translations, doesn’t mean the context isn’t abundantly clear. After all, the term Trinity isn’t in scripture either.

Gee Tina, looks like you’re being proven wrong too.

 

[paul_c]

FYI, as a Roman Catholic, you are required to believe, de fide, that God "predestines and pre-defines a select number of humans to eternal salvation."

Do you still think it’s the funniest folly you ever heard?

That;s not what he is saying. Sure, God predestines a select number of very special humans to eternal life. But he predestines no one to Hell. That is the error of Calvinism.

 

[Sig]

That;s not what he is saying. Sure, God predestines a select number of very special humans to eternal life. But he predestines no one to Hell. That is the error of Calvinism.

Oh yes, you’re right, not predestining them to heaven isn’t the same as predestining them to hell.

Can you say, “default?”

 

[Sig]

That;s not what he is saying. Sure, God predestines a select number of very special humans to eternal life.

Paul, God doesn’t justify and save the “special.” God justifies and saves the UNGODLY! (Rom 4:5).

 

[TinaG]

Tina, God is articulate, but that doesn’t mean that people dont twist his words so they hear what they want to hear. We’ve had several discussions in this thread about how Reformed Protestants will interpret a passage one way based on their tradition and Catholics will interpret the same passage another way based on the Catholic tradition. It is obvious from these exchanges that the actual scriptural passage is subordinate to the tradition that is used as the key to the interpretation.

So the accuracy of the interpretation of the passage depends on the credibility of the tradition, not the actual text of the passage. The Catholic Church;s Tradition goes back 2000 years to the Apostles. This is an historic fact . The Protestant tradition goes back 500 years to Martin Luther and John Calvin. This is also an historic fact. The Reformers could not show that they had any special insight from God. All they had were their arguments that they were smarter than the Catholics. Not a very credible argument to deflect the obvious fact that Protestantism rests on human theological innovation.

No, the reformers went back to the Church fathers, primarily Augustine, but many others, and looked and saw what they had written and what they believed. I reject the idea that the doctrines of the reformation are merely human theological innovation. I look at things such as the Marian cultus, the papacy and transubstantiation as human theological innovations not to be found in the early church. This has all be debated here before on numerous threads.

We do bring our theological preconditioning - traditions, if you will - to bear in looking at Scripture. Historical facts, and interpretations, can be of great use in understanding what is said in Scripture. But you cannot override what is in the Scriptures.

-Tina “I like: Where the Scriptures are Silent, We Should Be Silent” G

 

[Pitcharan]

… Be careful of suddenly discovering you may be mocking what you profess to believe. …

I would rather carefully and clearly expose all those who try to falsify catholic teaching

 

[paul_c]

I would be slow to call it “funniest folly”, friend. Be careful of suddenly discovering you may be mocking what you profess to believe. But it is a very good question.

Do we know all the ways of God? Can we explain Him in all His actions? No.

You see the same sort of thing in Mark 14:27-31, where Jesus tells them they will all fall away, and then tells them in 14:38 to pray that they not come into temptation. You see the same thing with Pharoah’s heart being hardened by God, and then being punished for having a hardened heart. We see this pattern throughout Scripture.

God desires all men to be saved. Not all men are saved. So we ask why. Is man capable of thwarting God’s desires? No. God is not weak. We see, repeatedly, that he “turns the king’s heart like water” and that He is sovereign. Supreme. No one thwarts His will, it is repeatedly said. So there is a reason not all are saved, and that reason lies in Him, not in us. So God chooses the elect “before the foundation of the world.”

-Tina “Not a Semi-Pelagian” G

You misunderstand Catholic Teaching on predestination, grace and free will. Let me explain>

God is completely sovereign. His plan will be carried out. But part of his plan is for man to have true free will . This is what separates man from the other created creatures. God wills all people to come to him and indeed he reaches out to every man and guides him through conscience to do his will. But he allows man to decide for himself whether he will do God’s will or will oppose it through sin. Because God knows in advance what every man will do in every circumstance, his plans take this into account and will be carried out. This does not deny man’s free will. it merely anticipates perfectly his choices.

You see, your reformed theology fails to give both God and man enough credit. You would have man be simply an automaton, playing out his role in a galactic play with no ability to effect anything. And you would have God be a tyrannical computer programmer, capable of controlling things only through complete limitation of choices.
Both God and Man are much more than you are giving them credit for.

 

[TinaG]

I would rather carefully and clearly expose all those who try to falsify catholic teaching

Likewise.

-Tina “The reformation brought back catholic teaching” G

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TinaG,

This is the worst example of anyone ‘cutting to the quick’ I have seen in some time. Why now say, “Just agree with me and let it go at that?” - but, that isn’t going to happen.

I thiink you need to use some references to back up your statements.

Please enlighten us on the ‘fact’ you have that God does not give His grace to everyone. How can you possibly know this?
Are you numbered amongst ‘The Elect’ and if so how do you know?
If you are mistaken in this - how will we know so that you can be called ‘Reprobate’?

If you are going to quote Aquinas then give a reference.

Where in Scripture do you back up this statement about the Glory of God being over the free will of men?

You really do not have to be a theologian - but, you do need to back up what you say. In previous post there have been numerous post that simply destroy OSAS as a tradition of man. Ultimately, in this little post you have provided you can not make up your mind just where free will fits - and how does it work with the Grace of God. This is the same significant problem that destroyed Calvin with his hang-up on predestination. While he was quite confident he was amongst the ‘Elect’ everyone one else could wind up with this nasty surprise at the end of their lives. What kind of tempramental and irrational God are you trying to imagine here? Surely not the Loving God Who took on flesh and willingly died for our sins.

God bless

To cut to the quick:

1. You cannot come to salvation on your own. To initially turn to Christ, you need prevenient grace.
2. You cannot persevere on your own. To persevere, you need the gift of perseverance.

In order to get the gift, God has to give it to you. He does not give it to everyone, only to the elect. In other words, if you are elect, you get the gift of perseverance. If you are not elect, you do not persevere.

God has predestined the elect from before the foundation of the world. Somewhere in Aquinas I’ve been told he says the number of the elect is fixed and can neither increase nor decrease.

Calvinists see the glory and sovereignty of God as being emphasized over the free will of man. God desires that all be saved, but not are. If they are not saved, it is not that the free will of man is more important than the glory of God.

If you are saved, you are saved. There is no “he loves me, he loves me not” and worrying about whether you are in a state of grace. Salvation is God’s act from first to last. He seeks and saves the lost. We do not come to Him on our own and we cannot stay with Him on our own.

-Tina “Not Exactly a Theologian” G

 

[TinaG]

You misunderstand Catholic Teaching on predestination, grace and free will. Let me explain>

God is completely sovereign. His plan will be carried out. But part of his plan is for man to have true free will . This is what separates man from the other created creatures. God wills all people to come to him and indeed he reaches out to every man and guides him through conscience to do his will. But he allows man to decide for himself whether he will do God’s will or will oppose it through sin. Because God knows in advance what every man will do in every circumstance, his plans take this into account and will be carried out. This does not deny man’s free will. it merely anticipates perfectly his choices.

You see, your reformed theology fails to give both God and man enough credit. You would have man be simply an automaton, playing out his role in a galactic play with no ability to effect anything. And you would have God be a tyrannical computer programmer, capable of controlling things only through complete limitation of choices.
Both God and Man are much more than you are giving them credit for.

No. Man is not an automaton. That idea is a slur against reformed theology that slips so quickly from Catholic lips…God is sovereign over and under our free will. We have free will, yes, but fallen man is so bent toward evil he can and will never choose good. It is only by God’s active grace that man has any capacity to choose freely. God is not a “tyrannical computer programmer” - how absurd, and how you dare accuse me of believing - or wanting to believe - such a thing! But He is sovereign, and our free will does not thwart His purposes. He works in and around and under it.

God does foreordain some to be saved. Others are not foreordained to be saved. We call the former the predestined, and the latter the reprobate; the former are blest, the latter damned. Surely you have read Romans 9:18-33: God hardens and has mercy according to His own will, and Paul suggests God creates some to be damned, for the sake of His own glory. Predestination is not limited to foreknowledge but extends to conscious choice.

-Tina “That’s Enough for Now” G

 

[Pitcharan]

REPEATING POST #731

FYI, as a Roman Catholic, you are required to believe, de fide, that God "predestines and pre-defines a select number of humans to eternal salvation."

Do you still think it’s the funniest folly you ever heard?

FYI, as a Roman Catholic, I am required to believe, the CCC and NOT any other heresy however cleverly it is made to appear like catholic teaching. I know that God pre-destines a few and I also know that He excludes none. You and Tina are trying to twist the truth by saying that Salvation is limited to the pre-destined few and others are hell bound. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

By the way, Sig! why are deliberately changing track? You had persistently demanded proof of ‘salvation being lost after it was given’ and post #718 was addressed to you. You conveniently evade it and divert focus now.

 

[paul_c]

No, the reformers went back to the Church fathers, primarily Augustine, but many others, and looked and saw what they had written and what they believed. I reject the idea that the doctrines of the reformation are merely human theological innovation. I look at things such as the Marian cultus, the papacy and transubstantiation as human theological innovations not to be found in the early church. This has all be debated here before on numerous threads.

This is of course what the Reformers and their followers MUST claim. but it can not be supported in any real way. The Reformers were too vain for that. We all know that Lutheranism started with Luther because he was not shy about claiming his innovations and in the same breath declaring the Catholic hierarchy as ignoramouses. Same for Calvin, Zwigli, and Henry VIII.

The early church can easily be shown to believe in Transubstantion, the papacy and the Marian dogmas. It would be a great challenge for anyone to disprove the real prescence of Jesus in the eucharist, since its clearly documented in scripture and the early church Fathers.

We do bring our theological preconditioning - traditions, if you will - to bear in looking at Scripture. Historical facts, and interpretations, can be of great use in understanding what is said in Scripture. But you cannot override what is in the Scriptures.

Think about what you are saying. You recognize that Traditions dictate how we understand scripture and that different traditions will understand the same scriptural verse to mean very different things. We had a very good example of this earlier in the thread, where the Catholics claimed that Matthew 7:21 demonstrated that OSAS was a fallacy and the Reformed claimed it supported OSAS… It is therefore obvious that Tradition is paramount in scriptural interpretation, not the actual scriptural text. And then we get rigth back into the credibility of the various traditions.

You claim that Augustine was consistent with the Reformers, while Augustine himself was clear that he was a Catholic and not just any Catholic, but one of the 33 doctors of the Church… Try winning that argument. Come to your senses. Protestant Tradition is obviously a human invention. We can even identify (as can you) who came up with each of these innovations. Want to discuss who came up with TULIP? or the 5 Solas? Or the idea that Kings should be the head of the national churches?

-Tina “I like: Where the Scriptures are Silent, We Should Be Silent” G

 

[paul_c]

No. Man is not an automaton. That idea is a slur against reformed theology that slips so quickly from Catholic lips…God is sovereign over and under our free will. We have free will, yes, but fallen man is so bent toward evil he can and will never choose good. It is only by God’s active grace that man has any capacity to choose freely. God is not a “tyrannical computer programmer” - how absurd, and how you dare accuse me of believing - or wanting to believe - such a thing! But He is sovereign, and our free will does not thwart His purposes. He works in and around and under it.

man is not bent toward evil. God created man and he is good. And God is so great that man can have free will without impacting God’s plans. And tell me how man is not an automaton if nothing he does has any effect on his salvation.

God does foreordain some to be saved. Others are not foreordained to be saved. We call the former the predestined, and the latter the reprobate; the former are blest, the latter damned. Surely you have read Romans 9:18-33: God hardens and has mercy according to His own will, and Paul suggests God creates some to be damned, for the sake of His own glory. Predestination is not limited to foreknowledge but extends to conscious choice.

-Tina “That’s Enough for Now” G

Paul does not suggest that God creates some to be damned. Show proof of such an outlandish statement. As for predestination being limited to foreknowledge, probably not, How God manages freewill is beyond our knowledge. We only know that he does allow it. Starting with Adam and Eve…

 

[Sig]

No, the reformers went back to the Church fathers, primarily Augustine, but many others, and looked and saw what they had written and what they believed.

Yes, they did.

I reject the idea that the doctrines of the reformation are merely human theological innovation.

Me too.

I look at things such as the Marian cultus, the papacy and transubstantiation as human theological innovations not to be found in the early church. This has all be debated here before on numerous threads.

And on numerous other fora/forums (whichever one prefers).

We do bring our theological preconditioning - traditions, if you will - to bear in looking at Scripture. Historical facts, and interpretations, can be of great use in understanding what is said in Scripture. But you cannot override what is in the Scriptures.

Amen.

 

[paul_c]

Paul, God doesn’t justify and save the “special.” God justifies and saves the UNGODLY! (Rom 4:5).

We’re not talking about justifying. we are talking about those predestined for Glory. That is a small subset of those that will ultimately go to heaven.