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fhansen
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OK, I can buy that and stand corrected if by “secret will” some Christians mean that we don’t know all of God’s ways-which necessarily includes His will. That can be an alternative way of saying what Catholicism refers to as “mystery” regarding the same matter.The problem for me is when some begin to claim to understand that will. Let me ask this: can the permissive will and the secret will conflict in any way?Sure it does. Eph 1:11 says that God works all things according to the purpose of His own will.
You don’t what those things are that God has willed, and decreed. The knowledge of them is His alone. The secret things belong to the Lord (Dt 29:29).
God’s “secret” will
God has a “premissive,” or “revealed” will: "Thou shall not…God has commanded all men to repent…there is no other name by which men must be saved…"
And God has a “secret” will. God has willed that ??? will occur. Only He knows what that is.
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Sig
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I haven’t given it any thought, but off the top of my head, if they did, that would indicate conflict in God, and I don’t see anything in Scripture about God being conflicted about anything.
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Sig
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There’s only one I know of who’s done that.Thanks for your reply.I agree that knowledge of Jesus is not the same thing as surrender to God’s will.
Not to get too deep here but is it possible to surrender totally to God’s will?
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PRmerger
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Or perhaps when someone helps a neighbor, that is, is a Good Samaritan.
So when someone does a good work it appears that intellectual assent (not ascent, BTW) is secondary, eh?
Catholics call this the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy.
It appears that you still stand in the tradition of Apollos, fervent in the faith yet improperly catechized and in need of being taken aside. :sad_yes:
Priscilla and Aquila are at your service here!
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tqualey
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Hi, Stestes03,
Hey! Where have you been?!
That must have been in a 16th Century Calvin Memo that you forgot to missed! Yeah, it really is a shame about free will getting pitched. As best as I can figure it, sometime after Adam used his free will and sinned and Calvin writing his Memo (“Institures of the Christian Religion”) free will was either pulled by God or it just evaporated… 
Now, what makes this so intersting that some actually believe that God will save us without our cooperation. Yet, the OSAS have to make the ‘sinner’s prayer’ and possibly make an altar call. Is free will hiding in this - of coruse not because we have people on this theread who are actively denying free will not only does not function - it isn’t there!
Well, I used to think I was using my free will to post … and you to respond… but, maybe the Protestants have another view on their own actions.
God bless
Hey! Where have you been?!
That must have been in a 16th Century Calvin Memo that you forgot to missed! Yeah, it really is a shame about free will getting pitched. As best as I can figure it, sometime after Adam used his free will and sinned and Calvin writing his Memo (“Institures of the Christian Religion”) free will was either pulled by God or it just evaporated… Now, what makes this so intersting that some actually believe that God will save us without our cooperation. Yet, the OSAS have to make the ‘sinner’s prayer’ and possibly make an altar call. Is free will hiding in this - of coruse not because we have people on this theread who are actively denying free will not only does not function - it isn’t there!
Well, I used to think I was using my free will to post … and you to respond… but, maybe the Protestants have another view on their own actions.
God bless
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paul_c
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who are you to say this?
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paul_c
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I said that we don’t know but it is plausible. You are acting as God here. How do you know?Yeah, he’s human, we’re human, I am pretty sure that we all stumble.
The thing is you were saying that he was going to go to Hell and that is where I depart from your reasoning. It is impossible that Jesus would elect him and then send him to hell because he messed up. (got scared and said the wrong thing). No way, no how.
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paul_c
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Okay. So God gives you grace. You are free to accept it or to turn from it. While you don’t have infinite freedom, you do have SOME freedom.You misunderstand because you misread, again, Mr Hansen.
You’ll note in my post that I said nothing about “man saving himself.” For some reason, upon reading my post, that’s what you thought I was saying, but that’s not so.
What I said is what Jesus says, you have no ability on your own to come to God. You don’t, you won’t because YOU CAN’T.
You don’t have the power to do so, you don’t have the ability to do so (Jn 6:44), you’re not free to do so because your will isn’t free, but it is in bondage to sin (Jn 8:34; Rom 6, et. al.).
That’s why Paul confidently, and without blushing says,
"There is none righteous, no not one.
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God…" Rom 3:10ff.
Your will isn’t free. Thus its need for grace.
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paul_c
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I would say that God gives grace to everyone and some decline it and are condemned by that action.Do you know what Jesus says in John 6:44?
If you believe that Jesus gives that grace spoken of John 6:44 to every single person, then you must also believe that every single person will be saved.
That’s universalism. Since you’re such a knowledgeable Catholic, I’m left to conclude that the RCC teaches universalism with respect to salvation.
Hmmm. What will your response be?
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Sig
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No, the wills do not conflict. Does that help?
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tqualey
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Hi, JRRTFAN,
Here are three links that may be helpful:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/catholic-predestination-ludwig-ott.html
catholicsource.net/Predestination.html
cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=147
God bless
Here are three links that may be helpful:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/catholic-predestination-ludwig-ott.html
catholicsource.net/Predestination.html
cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=147
God bless
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Sig
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Good answer.
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Sig
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What does that have to do with conversion?
“Appears” being the operative word. You Catholics aren’t very sure of anything, are you? Can’t be presumptuous, eh?
Conjuring up the dead? That’s a sin, ain’t it?Priscilla and Aquila are at your service here!
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Sig
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Having an opinion on a subject is acting like God? You’re opinion that she’s acting as God means you’re acting as God, then. C’mon, man…
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Sig
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That’s not what Jesus says in John 6. He doesn’t say God gives the same grace to everyone to come to me, does He?
No, He doesn’t. Jesus says, “NO ONE CAN COME…unless it HAS BEEN GRANTED TO HIM by My Father” (Jn 6:44, 65; cf Rom 8:29ff; 1 Cor 1:30; Eph 1:3ff, and so on, and on, and on).
What you say is different from what Jesus says.
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paul_c
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Sig, this is the explanation of the parable of the sower from Luke:
The Parable of the Sower Explained.* 11 “This is the meaning of the parable. The seed is the word of God. 12Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial. 14As for the seed that fell among thorns, they are the ones who have heard, but as they go along, they are choked by the anxieties and riches and pleasures of life, and they fail to produce mature fruit. 15But as for the seed that fell on rich soil, they are the ones who, when they have heard the word, embrace it with a generous and good heart, and bear fruit through perseverance.
It says they believed but then fell away. Isn’t the word of God enough for you?
Those that bear fruit through perseverance are in contrast to those that fall away. They stayed in the state of grace by bearing fruit with a generous and good heart.
This is how the Catholic Tradition understands this parable. Again, if you interpret it differently, it only goes to show that Tradition is superior to the text in understanding scripture. As you know by now, there is no truth at all to sola scriptura. You need tradition to understand what scripture says, It can not be accurately interpreted without the Traditional “key.”
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fhansen
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So it’s God’s secret will that people break his permissive will? The permissive will allows people to oppose His will and it’s also His secret will that they oppose His will? So His will is not really His will? He wills to contradict His will? But God’s not the author of evil? And He’s probably not irrational at the same time? Why does He need a permissive will if His secret will wants the same thing? What’s He permitting if He’s already in agreement that all rape torture, & genocide should be done? If He ordained it from the beginning of time? Because man certainly didn’t do it-he has no will-not one that’s free anyway.
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