Once Saved Always Saved?

[Sig]

Actually, I don’t know where the quotes are? Gee wiz. Thanks anyways.

Gee wiz, Lisa, I thought you would know.

I’m referring to the statements of John in Jn 20:31 and 1 Jn 5:13.

 

[Sig]

Do we not have anything from the N.T. to support free will?

I’m curious how you define free will, Lisa?

 

[Sig]

In order to know one is saved, one simply has to have 100% faith in their faith.

Actually, what one needs is 100% faith in their God. That’s where their faith resides.

 

[Sig]

This whole business of denying free will makes God evil. If all of our actions are predetermined, then God is willing us to sin. If a man robs a bank, then the Calvinist holds that God willed that, so God would be a bank robber. This is completely ridiculous.

In Is. 10:5-15, who is it that is causing Assyria to decide to attack Israel?

Is that completely ridiculous?

How about Hab 1:6?

 

[Cat_Herder]

In Is. 10:5-15, who is it that is causing Assyria to decide to attack Israel?

Read verse 1. Israel is being attacked because the Israelites have chosen to do evil.

[BIBLEDRB]Is 10:1-6[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Sig]

(Heb 11:1).Biblical hope is “confidence.” In fact, the word translated “evidence,” above, is elsewhere translated, “confidence” (cf 3:14).

A Christian’s hope, therefore, should not be “hope so,” but a confidence of the most solid conviction in the God-given assurance of a future reality.

 

[Sig]

Read verse 1. Israel is being attacked because the Israelites have chosen to do evil.

I understand that, but that’s not the question I asked you, CH. You haven’t answered my question.

 

[Cat_Herder]

It’s a synergistic effort, which is why St Augustine said:

**He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent.

The God who gave you free will does not violate it to save you**

And why the Catechism says:

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

God will not force us; Scripture says ‘no one can come to Jesus unless the
Father draws him’, and **‘We love Him because He first loved us’-**but we don’t have to come, we don’t have to love Him.

I’d read and consider what the Parable of the Talents and the Parable o the Ten Virgins are telling us about grace and free will. Here are some other verses to consider, verses which admonish genuine believers to continue to persevere, lest they lose eternal life. Why would the writers bother telling people believers any of this if our wills aren’t involved and salvation can’t be forfeited? Also the Sheep and the Goats, Matt 25:31-46

**God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:6

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb 12:14

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Prt 1:10

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,… Rom 8:13

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48

But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1Pet 1:15-16

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. Phil 2:12-13

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Gal 6:7-9

7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3 :7-14
**

I already raised both the Ten Talents and the Sheep and the Goats. Sig has ignored both. It appears that Sig is not interested in having an intelligent conversation. Instead, Sig deflects the questions and asks different ones.

I suggest that we all put Sig on the ignore list and carry on the thread.

 

[Lisa44]

Gee wiz, Lisa, I thought you would know.

I’m referring to the statements of John in Jn 20:31 and 1 Jn 5:13.

Thanks. I’m not nearly as think as you smart I am.

 

[Sig]

Thanks. I’m not nearly as think as you smart I am.

I’ll bet you are.

 

[Sig]

I already raised both the Ten Talents and the Sheep and the Goats. Sig has ignored both. It appears that Sig is not interested in having an intelligent conversation. Instead, Sig deflects the questions and asks different ones.

If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again.

 

[Lisa44]

I already raised both the Ten Talents and the Sheep and the Goats. Sig has ignored both. It appears that Sig is not interested in having an intelligent conversation. Instead, Sig deflects the questions and asks different ones.

I suggest that we all put Sig on the ignore list and carry on the thread.

Please wait for us dumb ones to catch up Cat Herder… this might boring for you but its not for me. I’m trying to wade through all the scripture quotes to catch up. I still don’t know why you gave me a link to an Einstein movie? Maybe if you are bored you could explain that to me.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Please wait for us dumb ones to catch up Cat Herder… this might boring for you but its not for me. I’m trying to wade through all the scripture quotes to catch up. I still don’t know why you gave me a link to an Einstein movie? Maybe if you are bored you could explain that to me.

Einstein was making the point that while God is the author of all that exists, God is not the author of evil. Evil is the absence of good, said absence being caused by men and demons choosing to go against God.

P.S. you aren’t dumb.

 

[Lisa44]

Thanks

1 John 2:3
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
1 John 2:5-6
But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 3:24
Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
1 John 4:13
We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

Thanks for the quote from Joshua. Do we not have anything from the N.T. to support free will?
As for the quote you gave, it does not address whether we in fact have free will or if our choices are predetermined. Verse 16 answers “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; for it is the Lord our God who brought us and our ancestors up from the land of Egypt,…”

This suggests that they were predetermined to serve him.

Well remember that all of creation was created to serve him. That is God’s purpose for all of us, right? But…the very verses that I cited and you quoted show that we know we are His (IOW have assurance of our salvation) by virtue of our obedience to Him, so wouldn’t that be your New Testament proofs?

So you are saying that one is saved through obedience. Whereas, OSAS is saying that you don’t need to be obedient you only need to believe?

As in the case of John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

And 1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Sig]

Whereas, OSAS is saying that you don’t need to be obedient you only need to believe?

That is the antinomian position. It is that one need only profess a belief in Christ, and may then do as one pleases.

Have you ever heard “perseverance, or preservation of the saints?”

 

[Cat_Herder]

So you are saying that one is saved through obedience. Whereas, OSAS is saying that you don’t need to be obedient you only need to believe?

As in the case of John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

And 1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Neither. Salvation is through grace alone, ordinarily conferred by the Sacrament of Baptism. This grace can be lost if one does not live it out. See explanation here.

 

[Lisa44]

It’s a synergistic effort, which is why St Augustine said:

**He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent.

The God who gave you free will does not violate it to save you**

And why the Catechism says:

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

God will not force us; Scripture says ‘no one can come to Jesus unless the
Father draws him’, and **‘We love Him because He first loved us’-**but we don’t have to come, we don’t have to love Him.

I’d read and consider what the Parable of the Talents and the Parable o the Ten Virgins are telling us about grace and free will. Here are some other verses to consider, verses which admonish genuine believers to continue to persevere, lest they lose eternal life. Why would the writers bother telling people believers any of this if our wills aren’t involved and salvation can’t be forfeited? Also the Sheep and the Goats, Matt 25:31-46

**God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:6

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb 12:14

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election**. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Prt 1:10

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,… Rom 8:13

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48

But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1Pet 1:15-16

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. Phil 2:12-13

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Gal 6:7-9

7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

…

Good question.

Ok, (I’d rather stick to scripture on this matter but since you raised Augustine I’ll address it).
I don’t really think God needs our consent to do anything. He could save us without our consent if he wanted to. He saved Saul without his consent (sort of). I mean Paul was running around killing Christians happy as could be and then God blinded him. So in a way, he did “save” him without his consent, or without his freely choosing to follow Jesus along with others of his time.

As for the Catechism, same thing, its not entirely true that the soul only enters “freely” as has been shown by Paul.

Once a person has been “elected” by God, can they really reject that? That is the question I think. Are they then saved, or can they be removed from election by their participation in sin.

I guess you are suggesting by the “be perfect” and “be holy” quotes that a person will lose their salvation if they are not perfect or holy or obedient to God?

 

[fhansen]

Actually, what one needs is 100% faith in their God. That’s where their faith resides.

100% faith that their faith in God is salvific-the right kind.

 

[Sig]

100% faith that their faith in God is salvific-the right kind.

Faith in God is the right kind.

 

[Lisa44]

I’m curious how you define free will, Lisa?

My guess is free will is the self doing what it wants without any help from above.

Einstein was making the point that while God is the author of all that exists, God is not the author of evil. Evil is the absence of good, said absence being caused by men and demons choosing to go against God.

P.S. you aren’t dumb.

Evil exists.

Thank you.

That is the antinomian position. It is that one need only profess a belief in Christ, and may then do as one pleases.

Have you ever heard “perseverance, or preservation of the saints?”

So I take it no one is espousing antinomianism?

Yes. How does it relate to OSAS?