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Sig
Guest
Will you cite and provide a link to any Jewish literature which states that the Jews believed being circumcised = OSAS?
And what about Jewish women? I guess they couldn’t be OSAS’d, eh?
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And what about Jewish women? I guess they couldn’t be OSAS’d, eh?
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Sig
Guest
I’ve already explained to you that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer’s account at the time of His justification, but the believer’s practical, or real righteousness and holiness come about, and are increased through sanctification.And not some merely imputed one, BTW.
Maybe you forgot that I did that, or maybe you missed it.
,
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fhansen
Guest
No, that’s a common position now, that sanctification necessarily occurs in a true believer but is still unnecessary for salvation in the ultimate sense. As you also pointed, out, that’s not the Catholic position-where sanctification and justification are essentially the same.I’ve already explained to you that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer’s account at the time of His justification, but his practical, or real righteousness comes about, and is increased through sanctification.
Maybe you forgot that I did that, or maybe you missed it.
We believe, that when scripture tells us no sinners will enter heaven, it means just what it says. We believe that God made no laws that man couldn’t obey, ***with His help ***. And that’s the essence of the New Covenant. Because His help, His grace, His indwelling presence, is exactly what Adam & Eve forfeited. When trust in Him died in their hearts, by having rejected Him as their God, faith was gone- lost, which is why we’re born without it. We’re lost from the creator and lover of our souls.
And this is why faith is so critically important as the first step in restoring ones justice. We must simply begin again to believe God exists and that He’s good and trustworthy. Then He can begin a work in us, with our cooperation, the work of salvation, the work of the Potter molding the clay into the creation He always had in mind.
Without this, true holiness, no one can see God, to paraphrase Heb 12:14. Holiness is our vision-it’s what makes us capable of seeing God, because to be attached to anything besides Him first and foremost is to be distracted-and that’s our problem now-that’s why we don’t see Him now; sin distracts us. And this holiness consists in love, which is why Paul said in 1 Cor 13 “…if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing”.
And so then love must be the motivation for our works, against which no one can argue. And no lover would ever think of boasting about his works, btw, because love, of course, never boasts, boasting is out of character for it. Most importantly here, perhaps, is that love excludes sin, and that’s why/how it fulfills the law.
Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to us for the forgiveness and -God’s forgetfulness- of sin. But from there we’re to, “go, and sin no more”. This is only accomplished as we become beings who love as God does, impossible for us on our own, not so with Him.
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Sig
Guest
My position is biblical. If you’d care to prove that isn’t biblical, be my guest.
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fhansen
Guest
Everyone thinks their position is biblical, regardless of how much it varies from each other. The bible can be used to support a great deal of different theologies. My position is supported by both God’s Word and God’s Tradition.
To be honest, Lutheranism and Catholicism aren’t so far apart in many ways, as the Joint Declaration sought to explore. Unlike Calvinism, in Lutheranism the will isn’t completely excluded; grace is considered resistible, the gift of faith doesn’t have to be received. And “saving faith” seems to be an idea which can and does encompass more than faith alone, IMO.
OSAS?- can’t go for that one. If a person who falls away can in hindsight be said to never have had true faith, then who knows just who that might be said about at some point in the future. God may elect us, but only He can know with 100% certainty just who the elect are, and if that isn’t true, then there’d be absolutely no reason for believers to be admonished to “make their calling and election sure”, along with all the other such admonitions in scripture.
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tqualey
Guest
The possible association (direct or indirect) between OSAS and the 1st Century Jewish view of circumcision as effecting salvation is something that deserves some thought.
Christ condemned the Jewish view that they were already saved because they lacked faith in God that would inspire works of love… The Catholic Church condemned OSAS for essentially the same reason. Salvation is not assured by ‘altar calls’ and claiming to be one of the ‘Elect’. Nor can it be ‘bought’ with deeds and mindless rituals.
Here are 3 Scriptural references to consider – what is important is the attitude of the Pharisees (the ‘Elect’) and how God responds to them.
***Matthew 3:7-10 *** 7When he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce good fruit as evidence of your repentance. 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10Even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
***Luke 3:7-14 *** 7He said to the crowds who came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce good fruits as evidence of your repentance; and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9Even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” 10And the crowds asked him, “What then should we do?” 11He said to them in reply, “Whoever has two tunics should share with the person who has none. And whoever has food should do likewise.” 12Even tax collectors came to be baptized and they said to him, “Teacher, what should we do?” 13He answered them, “Stop collecting more than what is prescribed.” 14Soldiers also asked him, “And what is it that we should do?” He told them, “Do not practice extortion, do not falsely accuse anyone, and be satisfied with your wages.”
John 8:37-42 37I know that you are descendants of Abraham. But you are trying to kill me, because my word has no room among you. 38 I tell you what I have seen in the Father’s presence; then do what you have heard from the Father.39 They answered and said to him, “Our father is Abraham. Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God; Abraham did not do this. 41You are doing the works of your father!” [So] they said to him, “We are not illegitimate. We have one Father, God.” 42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come on my own, but he sent me.
There really are many problems with OSAS, but in my opinion, the presumptious idea that one can manipulate God is the most damning. God has His Own Plan for each of us - and like St. Paul says, we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. This is hardly a ringing endorsement for OSAS
God bless
Christ condemned the Jewish view that they were already saved because they lacked faith in God that would inspire works of love… The Catholic Church condemned OSAS for essentially the same reason. Salvation is not assured by ‘altar calls’ and claiming to be one of the ‘Elect’. Nor can it be ‘bought’ with deeds and mindless rituals.
Here are 3 Scriptural references to consider – what is important is the attitude of the Pharisees (the ‘Elect’) and how God responds to them.
***Matthew 3:7-10 *** 7When he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce good fruit as evidence of your repentance. 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10Even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
***Luke 3:7-14 *** 7He said to the crowds who came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce good fruits as evidence of your repentance; and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9Even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” 10And the crowds asked him, “What then should we do?” 11He said to them in reply, “Whoever has two tunics should share with the person who has none. And whoever has food should do likewise.” 12Even tax collectors came to be baptized and they said to him, “Teacher, what should we do?” 13He answered them, “Stop collecting more than what is prescribed.” 14Soldiers also asked him, “And what is it that we should do?” He told them, “Do not practice extortion, do not falsely accuse anyone, and be satisfied with your wages.”
John 8:37-42 37I know that you are descendants of Abraham. But you are trying to kill me, because my word has no room among you. 38 I tell you what I have seen in the Father’s presence; then do what you have heard from the Father.39 They answered and said to him, “Our father is Abraham. Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God; Abraham did not do this. 41You are doing the works of your father!” [So] they said to him, “We are not illegitimate. We have one Father, God.” 42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come on my own, but he sent me.
There really are many problems with OSAS, but in my opinion, the presumptious idea that one can manipulate God is the most damning. God has His Own Plan for each of us - and like St. Paul says, we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. This is hardly a ringing endorsement for OSAS
God bless
K
karaleigh
Guest
Link to primary source. christian-history.org/not-by-faith-alone.html
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Sig
Guest
Your response above has nothing to do with the context of my last response to you.
As a reminder, I corrected your error that reformed soteriology involves “imputed righteousness” only (at least twice now, I think), and have stated the biblical position on that, which position is that reformed soteriology also involves real change and growth in practical righteousness and holiness.
You continue to be dismissive of that reformed, and biblical truth, so I’ll ask you again, if you are able to demonstrate that my position regarding real change and growth in practical righteousness and holiness is false, please do so. If you are unable to do so, please say so.
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Sig
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What you’re doing above is taking what I said OUT OF CONTEXT.
One more time, a believer can know he has eternal life. Scripture says so.
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Sig
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The request was for not for your private interpretation of scripture, but for Jewish sources stating that circumcision is the Jewish version of OSAS.
Are you able to produce those sources, or not?
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Stewstew,
There are two types of walking - the first, and most common to everyone is that you put one foot in front of the other and actually move. The second is that your feet go up and down (huffy and puffing is optional) but you stay in one spot. A good example of this is the jogger on a busy street who catches a traffic light - so rather than stand still, he is moving his legs. Picture someone permanently stuck at the OSAS traffic light.
Sure we all have the assurance fo salvation - IF - we cooperate with God’s Grace, IF we believe in His Word, IF we DO (ah, ‘works’) the things Christ told us to do AND we persevere to the end. Matthew 25 is a good example of people who failed in one or more of these areas. Unfortunately, the OSAS group can only focus on one aspect of Christ message - sort of like a one-ball juggler. This is brought out very well in Matthew 7: 21-23
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? 23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers.
My guess is that these people who did prophesy in Christ’s name or drove out deamons - were quite surprised to heard the judgment pronounced against them. For us to get to heaven we must do ALL Christ said to do - we must be able to handle more than one ball in the air at the same time.
God bless
There are two types of walking - the first, and most common to everyone is that you put one foot in front of the other and actually move. The second is that your feet go up and down (huffy and puffing is optional) but you stay in one spot. A good example of this is the jogger on a busy street who catches a traffic light - so rather than stand still, he is moving his legs. Picture someone permanently stuck at the OSAS traffic light.
Sure we all have the assurance fo salvation - IF - we cooperate with God’s Grace, IF we believe in His Word, IF we DO (ah, ‘works’) the things Christ told us to do AND we persevere to the end. Matthew 25 is a good example of people who failed in one or more of these areas. Unfortunately, the OSAS group can only focus on one aspect of Christ message - sort of like a one-ball juggler. This is brought out very well in Matthew 7: 21-23
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? 23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers.
My guess is that these people who did prophesy in Christ’s name or drove out deamons - were quite surprised to heard the judgment pronounced against them. For us to get to heaven we must do ALL Christ said to do - we must be able to handle more than one ball in the air at the same time.
God bless
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Sig
Guest
What do you mean, “stop feeding him?”
Tom made an assertion of “fact.”
When asked to support that assertion of “fact,” he didn’t and still hasn’t.
When he either supports that assertion of “fact,” or says that he cannot support that assertion of “fact,” we can move to something else.
The ball’s in Tom’s court for now on that.
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fhansen
Guest
My position was that imputed righteousness is what justifies one unto salvation in reformed theology. Are you saying this is an error? Few, especially Catholics, would deny that real change and growth is biblical. The question is whether or not it has anything to do with saving us. I have to admit I’ve never read or heard of sanctification being necessary for salvation in Lutheranism. Are you agreeing that one must be personally, authentically sinless in order to enter heaven?
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Sig
Guest
Notice the people to whom Christ says that are pleading their works as the reason they should be let into the kingdom. But he tells them He never knew them. Hmmmmm…:ehh:
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Sig
Guest
So then, you are acknowledging that the reformed position of sotierology includes not just imputed righteousness, but also real change and growth in practical holiness and righteousness, and that the reformed position concerning that is biblical, is that correct?
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Farsight001,
I think you have an excellent idea…
In fact, we can pretty much discuss things amongst ourselves. Have you noticed that almost everyone responds in providing additional informaiton or clarifications. Truly, it warms the heart to see how this thread can actually work.
By the way, any thought on the 1st Century Jews having ‘their own version of OSAS’ through circumcision?
God bless
I think you have an excellent idea…
In fact, we can pretty much discuss things amongst ourselves. Have you noticed that almost everyone responds in providing additional informaiton or clarifications. Truly, it warms the heart to see how this thread can actually work.
By the way, any thought on the 1st Century Jews having ‘their own version of OSAS’ through circumcision?
God bless
S
Sig
Guest
You’re all over the map, friend.
When one enters heaven, one will do so in the realm of the Spirit, and thus will be sinless.
But I don’t think that’s what you’re after. I think what you’re after has to do with being sinless while still in the body, and my answer to that is “NO,” no one will be sinless while in the body (Rom 7:21-23).
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