Once Saved Always Saved?

[fhansen]

You’re all over the map, friend.

When one enters heaven, one will do so in the realm of the Spirit, and thus will be sinless.

But I don’t think that’s what you’re after. I think what you’re after has to do with being sinless while still in the body, and my answer to that is “NO,” no one will be sinless while in the body (Rom 7:21-23).

No, I’m after being sinless prior to heaven. So tell me, what does it mean to be “in the realm of the Spirit”? How does that change one from being sinful to sinless? Why are demons sinful while not in a body? Are we somehow forced to change? Why does scripture tell us no sinners will enter heaven? Isn’t sin a matter of the heart, first and foremost?

 

[Farsight001]

What do you mean, “stop feeding him?”

Tom made an assertion of “fact.”

When asked to support that assertion of “fact,” he didn’t and still hasn’t.

When he either supports that assertion of “fact,” or says that he cannot support that assertion of “fact,” we can move to something else.

The ball’s in Tom’s court for now on that.

What you seem to not realize is that due to the couple dozen questions asked of you that you have neglected to even try to answer means the ball is in your court and has been for several pages now. Answer the questions, or find another forum of people to trollolol.

 

[fhansen]

So then, you are acknowledging that the reformed position of sotierology includes not just imputed righteousness, but also real change and growth in practical holiness and righteousness, and that the reformed position concerning that is biblical, is that correct?

So then, you are acknowledging that the reformed position of sotierology includes not just imputed righteousness, but also real change and growth in practical holiness and righteousness, and that the reformed position concerning that is biblical, is that correct?

I’ve never denied that reformers believe one will grow in holiness after they believe they’ve been justified and saved by faith. Most Protestants would hold to this tenet. And Catholics certainly believe in sanctification. But as you know, Catholics believe that salvation is still conditional-we’re saved, being, saved, and will be saved; one must change and grow in holiness, using the grace given, in order to be judged worthy of eternal life. And this is quite biblical as I and others have pointed out using scripture for this entire thread.

 

[Sig]

No, I’m after being sinless prior to heaven.

The answer is no, as I said in my last post, and I cited Rom 7:21-23 as support.

So tell me, what does it mean to be “in the realm of the Spirit”? How does that change one from being sinful to sinless?

Death releases one from the physical. In the realm of the physical, even in the persons of the redeemed, a principle of evil and sin are present (Rom 7:21-23).

Why are demons sinful while not in a body?

I can’t think of any Scriptural statements addressing that issue, can you?

Therefore, anything I say about that would be conjecture, and the same would be true for any statements you make about that, unless of course, you’re able to support your statements from Scripture. Are you?

Are we somehow forced to change?

Did you choose the time of your physical birth? Are were you “somehow forced” to be born? I think the same is true of death, don’t you?

Why does scripture tell us no sinners will enter heaven?

Because it does.

 

[Sig]

I’ve never denied that reformers believe one will grow in holiness after they believe they’ve been justified and saved by faith. Most Protestants would hold to this tenet. And Catholics certainly believe in sanctification. But as you know, Catholics believe that salvation is still conditional-we’re saved, being, saved, and will be saved; one must change and grow in holiness, using the grace given, in order to be judged worthy of eternal life. And this is quite biblical as I and others have pointed out using scripture for this entire thread.

Indeed. I agree. Reformed soteriology is biblical.

 

[Sig]

What you seem to not realize is that due to the couple dozen questions asked of you that you have neglected to even try to answer means the ball is in your court and has been for several pages now. Answer the questions, or find another forum of people to trollolol.

Look, a lot of questions I’ve asked haven’t been answered either, and you don’t see me complaining about it.

 

[Sig]

…any thought on the 1st Century Jews having ‘their own version of OSAS’ through circumcision?

God bless

Yes. I can’t seem to find any official Jewish teachings on the subject; can you? If so, please cite them, and link to them as well.

 

[fhansen]

Did you choose the time of your physical birth? Are were you “somehow forced” to be born? I think the same is true of death, don’t you?

Birth, no, death, yes :
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.
If you don’t understand this as a principle of Christan faith, the bible has somehow let you down.

Because it does.

Good, we agree we must be sinless prior to heaven.

 

[Sig]

Birth, no, death, yes :
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.
If you don’t understand this as a principle of Christan faith, the bible has somehow let you down.

Again you demonstrate an inability to understand context.

I said physical birth. Contextually, the death referred to then is also physical death.

Are you saying humans choose the time of the physical death? Yes, or no?

 

[paul_c]

Notice the people to whom Christ says that are pleading their works as the reason they should be let into the kingdom. But he tells them He never knew them. Hmmmmm…:ehh:

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? 23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers.

Sig,
Notice how you apply yoru reformed tradition to interpret this passage. Jesus clearly says that the only ones who will enter heaven are those that DO the will of his Father. Yet, you try to mitigate the need to do works by saying that the condemned are pleading based thier case based on their works. In fact, they are condemned as EVIL DOERS, because their works were NOT those consistent with love.

In fact, this passage is consistent with Catholic teaching that you need to do works of love to stay in the state of grace and to avoid Mortal sin, which would cause you to be condemned.

 

[fhansen]

Again you demonstrate an inability to understand context.

I said physical birth. Contextually, the death referred to then is also physical death.

Are you saying humans choose the time of the physical death? Yes, or no?

The context that prompted your response came from my question, does death somehow bring about a change in holiness? It had nothing to do with timing.

 

[Farsight001]

Look, a lot of questions I’ve asked haven’t been answered either, and you don’t see me complaining about it.

That’s because the questions were asked of you first, and you simply asked questions in return to avoid answering. You full well know this, and so have no reason to complain. So again, I will say, answer the questions, or just go away. Your game playing is wasting the time of everyone here.

 

[Sig]

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? 23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers.

Sig,
Notice how you apply yoru reformed tradition to interpret this passage. Jesus clearly says that the only ones who will enter heaven are those that DO the will of his Father. Yet, you try to mitigate the need to do works by saying that the condemned are pleading based thier case based on their works. In fact, they are condemned as EVIL DOERS,
because their works were NOT those consistent with love.

In fact, this passage is consistent with Catholic teaching that you need to do works of love to stay in the state of grace and to avoid Mortal sin, which would cause you to be condemned.

Err, all I’ve done is made an observation concerning their pleading, but thanks for your catch.

Christ rejects them because they are ergadzomenoi, (continuously working) lawlessness, IOW, they are unredeemed, and unconverted sinners. While the redeemed may sin, their lives are not marked by “continously working lawlessness.”

To be more exact, those Christ “never knew” in that passage were never given eternal life by Him. This is a truth because concerning those to whom He gives eternal life, He unequivocally states, "they shall never perish."

Therefore, those Christ never knew were never saved.

This passage then is consistent with reformed theology and the impossiblity of the saved losing salvation.

 

[Sig]

The context that prompted your response came from my question, does death somehow bring about a change in holiness? It had nothing to do with timing.

I’ve answered your question regarding that, will you now answer mine?

Do you choose the time of your physical death, or are you “somehow forced” into death? Hmmmm?

Do you have a problem with God “somehow forcing” your physical birth, and death? Hmmmm?

 

[Sig]

That’s because the questions were asked of you first, and you simply asked questions in return to avoid answering. You full well know this, and so have no reason to complain. So again, I will say, answer the questions, or just go away. Your game playing is wasting the time of everyone here.

Here’s what I “full well know,” a lot of questions I’ve asked haven’t been answered either, and you don’t see me complaining about it.

How’s about you now go back and tell those who haven’t answered my questions that it’s time they do?

 

[Farsight001]

Here’s what I “full well know,” a lot of questions I’ve asked haven’t been answered either, and you don’t see me complaining about it.

Because you didn’t ask your questions to get an answer, but to divert attention from the fact that you’re not even trying to answer our questions. We are not stupid. So start answering.

How’s about you now go back and tell those who haven’t answered my questions that it’s time they do?

They asked you first, so it is only fair that you answer first. After you’ve done that, we can get to your questions. Everybody takes their fair turn.

 

[fhansen]

I’ve answered your question regarding that, will you now answer mine?

Do you choose the time of your physical death, or are you “somehow forced” into death? Hmmmm?

Do you have a problem with God “somehow forcing” your physical birth, and death? Hmmmm?

Of course not-but that’s just an unrelated, rather dull question.

 

[Sig]

Because you didn’t ask your questions to get an answer…

LOL. Yeah, I ask questions because I don’t want answers to them…:doh2:

 

[Sig]

Of course not-but that’s just an unrelated, rather dull question.

Well thank you so much for answering something so beneath your lustre to answer.

 

[JRRTFAN]

You’re all over the map, friend.

When one enters heaven, one will do so in the realm of the Spirit, and thus will be sinless.

But I don’t think that’s what you’re after. I think what you’re after has to do with being sinless while still in the body, and my answer to that is “NO,” no one will be sinless while in the body (Rom 7:21-23).

Are there any exceptions? Can an infant sin? Can a mentally retarded person sin? Can Jesus sin? What I think is that a thinking person will agree that all does not always mean all and that you do not know the difference between a desire to sin and a sin.

Would you define sin for us? My bet is you will say nothing about a grave matter, recognizing the gravity and then doing the act with full assent of the will. We’re talking a different religion is the problem.