Once Saved Always Saved?

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

Now, I must admit… you’ve got me on that one! Ah, but, while I have never heard of a “Faux Beleiver” I have heard of a “Faux Trutle Neck” …

Really, I do not think the word ‘peculiar’ does OSAS justice I really does not convey the concept that one is trying to manipulate God, is moving away from what Christ (and St. Paul…) said, and is simply total deciet as a ‘tradition of man’. But, when considering the Protestant armamentarium, OSAS is not unique - look at SF, SS, their own bible with nothing added but 7 books of God removed, and Grace Alone as cooked up by Luther & Co.

To the best of my knowledge, the only one we know for sure that is in Hell is the Devil and 1/3 of the profoundly foolish angels who followed him. The rich man (Dives?) in Luke 16 is a character in a parable - so, there is at least some doubt that he was a real person. Any othrs? Since no one has come back to say, “You know, I was never an ‘Elect’ to begin with!” I would say that this component of OSAS is, as Myth Busters would say, “BUSTED!”

God bless

Exactly. The Faux Believer paradigm, which is the most peculiar of all concepts wrought by the Protestant Reformation, IMHO.

Which, ironically, confirms that there is no such thing as assurance of salvation, if such an entity as the “Faux Believer” exists–for how does one know that he’s not one of those poor saps who thinks he’s saved but actually isn’t? That is, there is no assurance of salvation.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Paul C,

In theory, I think you are correct about we benefit from exchanges.

As a practical matter, I would simply present the exchanges that have actually taken place for the past 20+ pages. These ‘exchanges’ can simply be summarized by, “Show me where in Scripture it says…” or “Where did I say…” etc. While it may be difficult to actually assess the quality of ‘exchanges’ - I think these have been so uniformly evasive and non-resonsive that to call them ‘exchanges’ is to give them a rating that is simply undeserved.

Naturally, you are free to do as you wish - but, as Cat Herder has mentioned this is not really productive. I have told this poster good bye and have not responded to any of his posts, but I am engaging in this thread and posting as I think appropriate. Maybe you would like to try this. Admittedly it is not as nearly combative … but I think we can have good posts.

Give it some thought.

God bess

He’s answering me and even if he is not ready to change his mind about OSAS, there are probably dozens of others who have benefited from the exchange, myself included. If you don’t want to participate, that’s fine. Just remember, we need people like Sig to engage us because that opens up learning for a whole group of people that want to learn but won’t put themselves out front like he does.

 

[Lisa44]

…

And it undeniably says that unless you do the will of the Father, you will not enter heaven. It also is clear that Jesus demands the evildoers to depart from him. This clearly supports the Catholic teaching that you must stay in the state of grace through works of love and by avoiding sin to get to heaven.

But again, this is how Catholics understand this passage. In the end, its not the passage but the credibility of the Tradition that is used to interpret it that matters.

…

Were they unbelievers? They called him Lord, did they not? Isn’t that a sign of belief? They believed in him enough to try to do works in his name. It wasn’t lack of belief for which they are condemned. Jesus never said they were being condemned for lack of belief. What he says is that they are being condemned for the failure to do God’s will. (and failing to do God’s will is sin, and that is evil doing). You see, you are locked into a false belief that keeps you from seeing the truth about your position. I fear you are trying to win a debate, not find the truth… Such a win would ultimately be a loss, would it not…

Really? What weakness have you pointed out that I wasn’t able to show was a misunderstanding on your part?

May we turn back to Matthew chapter 7 for a moment. Jesus says “I never knew you…” So we know that these people it is referencing were “never” saved to begin with.

So the question is who are these people?

Mat 7:22 “On that day many will say to me, Lord Lord didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?”

Who prophesies, and who drives out demons, and who does miracles in Jesus’s name?

Lets go back to what chapter 7 says before this. It says “the road is broad that leads to destruction”. It says “beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravaging wolves.”

Then: “You’ll recognize them by their fruit.” “A good tree can’t produce bad fruit.”

CAN’T. Can not. “neither can a bad tree produce good fruit”

Wait… what about those guys who are prophesizing? And casting out demons? And doing miracles? Aren’t those “GOOD” works? Aren’t those “good fruit”? Doesn’t that make them “good trees”?

Mat 7:9 “What man among you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him?”

If Jesus gives to someone salvation, do you think it is fair to say that Jesus will rip it away from them once he has given it to them? Do you stop feeding your son because he was bad and do you let him starve? Isn’t Jesus saying that he will give to his children? Why would Jesus turn his back on his children?

Can someone give me an example where Jesus turns his back on one of his children?

 

[Lisa44]

If I were frightened, and therefore lacked faith, how would the Reformed position offer me any comfort? To the reformers, I would be dead in my trespasses and sins…I cannot choose to trust God because I am in bondage to sin. If God predestined me to persevere to the end, I certainly would not fall away, but as I have fallen away because of my fear and doubt (hypothetically speaking) I would clearly be a reprobate. Or if not a reprobate, then one of the elect; in which case,** it still does nothing to comfort me because I wouldn’t know whether or not I was in fact one of the elect**!

Putting the Reformed position aside,** I am completely comfortable with putting my salvation in God’s hands**. I realize that He has given me a gift, and not an eternally binding contract (see, e.g., the Rule Against Perpetuity). On the other hand, by claiming it’s impossible to lose your salvation, you appear to be holding God to the terms put forth in the Westminster Confession; that is, he MUST save you! The loss of your salvation is IMPOSSIBLE - even for God! (It says so right here in the bible!)

Overall, the point is to reveal the hypocrisy of your position. On the one hand, you rely upon the “it’s-up-to-God’s-grace” soteriology when you want to avoid a question; but on the other hand you are perfectly willing to put forward that the elect, who incidentally are unaware of their predestined status, can have complete confidence of their salvation. And “if God has a right to do whatever He pleases, and to grace whoever He pleases, including bringing into His kingdom whomever He desires to bring into His kingdom, and at the time of His own choosing, and under the conditions of His own choosing” (Ps 115:3), then how can it be ***impossible ***for someone to lose their salvation? From my understanding, “with God all things are possible” (Matt. 19:26). Now, what was that tongue-in-cheek remark you made about Catholics not believing that “all” means “all”…?

Because if you love your child, how much more does God love his children and give good gifts to them?

 

[fhansen]

May we turn back to Matthew chapter 7 for a moment. Jesus says “I never knew you…” So we know that these people it is referencing were “never” saved to begin with.

So the question is who are these people?

Mat 7:22 “On that day many will say to me, Lord Lord didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?”

Who prophesies, and who drives out demons, and who does miracles in Jesus’s name?

Lets go back to what chapter 7 says before this. It says “the road is broad that leads to destruction”. It says “beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravaging wolves.”

Then: “You’ll recognize them by their fruit.” “A good tree can’t produce bad fruit.”

CAN’T. Can not. “neither can a bad tree produce good fruit”

Wait… what about those guys who are prophesizing? And casting out demons? And doing miracles? Aren’t those “GOOD” works? Aren’t those “good fruit”? Doesn’t that make them “good trees”?

Mat 7:9 “What man among you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him?”

If Jesus gives to someone salvation, do you think it is fair to say that Jesus will rip it away from them once he has given it to them? Do you stop feeding your son because he was bad and do you let him starve? Isn’t Jesus saying that he will give to his children? Why would Jesus turn his back on his children?

Can someone give me an example where Jesus turns his back on one of his children?

It’s never about Him turning away from us-it’s us turning away from Him-it’s always been that way-since the Garden. And unless we believe in universal salvation, then something sends some people to hell in any case, either God by divine fiat, or ourselves by our choice. What about those children?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Stewstew,

Excellent

Yet another way of identifying the multiple problems with OSAS! I guess you really have to hand to the ‘legal eagles’ who drafted the Westminster Confession that had the power to hold God hostage!

Come to lthink of it, shame those guys aren’t around to draft something that would hold the majority of our politicians hostage to only working for honest government, keeping their hands out of the till and focusing on the common good!

God bless

If I were frightened, and therefore lacked faith, how would the Reformed position offer me any comfort? To the reformers, I would be dead in my trespasses and sins…I cannot choose to trust God because I am in bondage to sin. If God predestined me to persevere to the end, I certainly would not fall away, but as I have fallen away because of my fear and doubt (hypothetically speaking) I would clearly be a reprobate. Or if not a reprobate, then one of the elect; in which case,** it still does nothing to comfort me because I wouldn’t know whether or not I was in fact one of the elect**

!

Putting the Reformed position aside,** I am completely comfortable with putting my salvation in God’s hands**. I realize that He has given me a gift, and not an eternally binding contract (see, e.g., the Rule Against Perpetuity). On the other hand, by claiming it’s impossible to lose your salvation, you appear to be holding God to the terms put forth in the Westminster Confession; that is, he MUST save you! The loss of your salvation is IMPOSSIBLE - even for God! (It says so right here in the bible!)

Overall, the point is to reveal the hypocrisy of your position. On the one hand, you rely upon the “it’s-up-to-God’s-grace” soteriology when you want to avoid a question; but on the other hand you are perfectly willing to put forward that the elect, who incidentally are unaware of their predestined status, can have complete confidence of their salvation. And “if God has a right to do whatever He pleases, and to grace whoever He pleases, including bringing into His kingdom whomever He desires to bring into His kingdom, and at the time of His own choosing, and under the conditions of His own choosing” (Ps 115:3), then how can it be ***impossible ***for someone to lose their salvation? From my understanding, “with God all things are possible” (Matt. 19:26). Now, what was that tongue-in-cheek remark you made about Catholics not believing that “all” means “all”…?

 

[paul_c]

I see, you could never be comfortable being of the reformed, who put their salvation completely in God’s hands, but you are completely comfortable not being of the reformed while putting your salvation completely in God’s hands.

Interesting, interesting.

Sig,
We can never be comfortable with reformed teaching, not because it puts our salvation in God’s hands, but because it fails to recognize what is clearly obvious, both in scripture and in practice, that God gave man free will.

Well you know, StewStew, Paul told the Ephesian church that the Spirit is given as a seal, and guarantee of the believers redemption at the time they believe; he also told the Corinthian church the same thing (Eph 1:13, 14; cf 2 Cor 1:22), and he makes similar statements elsewhere, but hey, if you say God doesn’t have an eternally binding contract with you, who am I to argue?

God is not a lawyer, Sig. He deals in truths and covenants, not contracts. And Paul never told the Ephesian Church that they were guaranteed heaven at the time they believe. You will never be able to show that from scripture because it simply isn’t true.

I’m holding God to promises He has made to me, and so is the Westminster Confession.

How are you holding God to anything? You have no power or authority over God and certainly neither does the Westminster confession. I highly recommend that when you see Him on judgement day that you don’t try to Hold him to anything but instead humbly beg him for mercy on your soul.

That’s another straw man, StewStew. As I’ve said before, the apostle John in his gospel, and in his first epistle state that believers can know they are saved (Jn 20:31; 1 Jn 5:13).
Let’s look at Jesus’ words from John 5:28-29:

28 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice

29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.
It seems very clear from this that one key determining factor in our salvation is our actions and if our actions matter, then we can not be judged until death when our actions cease. And if we can not be judged, then how can we know we are saved before hand…
Sig;8690624:

Because God has promised that salvation can’t be lost StewStew. I can’t think of any place in Scripture where it’s stated that one has lost salvation. Can you?

Sig, Before you can find a place where one states that they have lost their salvation, you need to find a place where someone guarantees that they are going to heaven. Can you find anyone proclaiming that their entrance into heaven is assured? Even St. Paul, as great as he was, said he did not dare judge himself. Are you more saved than he was?

 

[Lisa44]

It’s never about Him turning away from us-it’s us turning away from Him-it’s always been that way-since the Garden. And unless we believe in universal salvation, then something sends some people to hell in any case, either God by divine fiat, or ourselves by our choice. What about those children?

No, no, no, no. The example was given of those people who Jesus says he never knew. They were never saved. We all agree on that. We are talking about those who believe in him. The ones who “knock” and the ones who “ask”, those whom Jesus “gives” to.

This passage in Matthew says nothing about those people being rejected by Jesus.

Please show me where Jesus says that those who “ask” and “knock” and who he gives to, will be rejected by him at the end of their life?

Hint: Mat 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mind and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock.”

You tell me, what are the “words of” His, that we should “act” on here? What words of his is he telling us to act on?

 

[tqualey]

Wow PRmerger! You did a lot of work on this post!

And, not only is this proof - but proof based upon the Holy Word of God. I would have thought that this material would lead would have lead to an indepth discussion on how OSAS simply evaporates from the page when exposed to the Truth of God’s Word. Well, of course it would - if it were even looked at

I appreciated the presentation you made - thank you very much.

God bless

Well, since you asked…

The Infallibility of the Catholic Church Proved from Scripture
Originally posted by Randy Carson

The following verses suggest that the Catholic Church is protected by God from ever teaching error in matters of faith and morals, and questions concerning each verse are provided as food for thought.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church ever fell into doctrinal error, would this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Q: If the Church has the authority to bind and loose on earth in a manner that is also true in heaven, then assuming that there is no error in heaven, can the Church err on earth?

Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error at any time during the nearly 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?

Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Q: If the Church speaks with such authority that those who hear the Church are actually hearing Christ and such that anyone who rejects the words of the Church are rejecting Christ Himself, can the Church ever be allowed to speak error on behalf of Jesus?

John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error, would this indicate that Jesus did not give the Counselor or that the Counselor simply failed to remain with the Church “forever”?

John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Q: If the Church ever fell into doctrinal error, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?

John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?

Now, consider the following three verses:

1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?

In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into doctrinal error? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”

---

 

[fhansen]

No, no, no, no. The example was given of those people who Jesus says he never knew. They were never saved. We all agree on that. We are talking about those who believe in him. The ones who “knock” and the ones who “ask”, those whom Jesus “gives” to.

This passage in Matthew says nothing about those people being rejected by Jesus.

Please show me where Jesus says that those who “ask” and “knock” and who he gives to, will be rejected by him at the end of their life?

Hint: Mat 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mind and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock.”

You tell me, what are the “words of” His, that we should “act” on here? What words of his is he telling us to act on?

To ask, seek, and knock. So you’re saying that we must ask and knock, that it’s* our* wills, expressed by our actions, that enable us to be known by Jesus?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fhansen,

How true! From Adam to this very day, it is all about each one of us refusing God’s Grace and wading out farther and farther into the Sea of Sin.

As I see it, the human and most common concept of ‘fair’ is totally different from the actions of our Loving God. If anyone is concerned about ‘fair’ - thank God that God did not treat us like the Foolish Angels who chose the Devil over God - they did not have a ‘second chance’. But, if it is possible to say something ‘good’ about the Devil - then I would have to say that never once was it recorded that he turned to God and said, “That’s not fair!”

Anyone interested in meeting Christ has just to look at Him dying of the Cross - notice that His Arms are open to receive us if we just freely chose to come to Him.

God bless

It’s never about Him turning away from us-it’s us turning away from Him-it’s always been that way-since the Garden. And unless we believe in universal salvation, then something sends some people to hell in any case, either God by divine fiat, or ourselves by our choice. What about those children?

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
…

Okay. I can agree with that. They “believed” but were never saved. This is counter to Protestant theology, where salvation is from faith alone, but completely consistent with Catholic theology, which requires baptism to get in the state of grace and works of love to stay there.

So the question is who are these people?

Mat 7:22 “On that day many will say to me, Lord Lord didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?”

Who prophesies, and who drives out demons, and who does miracles in Jesus’s name?

Lets go back to what chapter 7 says before this. It says “the road is broad that leads to destruction”. It says “beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravaging wolves.”

Then: “You’ll recognize them by their fruit.” “A good tree can’t produce bad fruit.”

CAN’T. Can not. “neither can a bad tree produce good fruit”

Wait… what about those guys who are prophesizing? And casting out demons? And doing miracles? Aren’t those “GOOD” works? Aren’t those “good fruit”? Doesn’t that make them “good trees”?

They prophesied in Jesus name, but that doesn’t mean they were speaking for Jesus, does it. It means that they were saying what they wanted to say and CLAIMED it was from Jesus. Same with the miracles they claimed. Jesus didn’t know them because they weren’t speaking for him, they were simply using his name for their own schemes. There are plenty of “peachers” out there doing the same thing today.

Mat 7:9 “What man among you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him?”

If Jesus gives to someone salvation, do you think it is fair to say that Jesus will rip it away from them once he has given it to them?

No, he won’ rip it away but that doesnt mean we won’t throw it away by sinning.

Do you stop feeding your son because he was bad and do you let him starve? Isn’t Jesus saying that he will give to his children?

If your child runs away, you can’t feed him. If your child refuses to eat, you can’t feed them

Why would Jesus turn his back on his children?

Can someone give me an example where Jesus turns his back on one of his children?

That is never the issue. The issue is the children turning their back on Jesus.

 

[fhansen]

No, no, no, no. The example was given of those people who Jesus says he never knew. They were never saved. We all agree on that. We are talking about those who believe in him. The ones who “knock” and the ones who “ask”, those whom Jesus “gives” to.

This passage in Matthew says nothing about those people being rejected by Jesus.

Please show me where Jesus says that those who “ask” and “knock” and who he gives to, will be rejected by him at the end of their life?

Hint: Mat 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mind and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock.”

You tell me, what are the “words of” His, that we should “act” on here? What words of his is he telling us to act on?

**If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” **2 Pet 2

 

[Lisa44]

To ask, seek, and knock. So you’re saying that we must ask and knock, that it’s* our* wills, expressed by our actions, that enable us to be known by Jesus?

Me!? Did I write the bible? No, I’m saying what does scripture say? Does it say that those who knock will be sent to hell?

Jesus knows everything, he is God. So there is no sense in trying to pull the wool over his eyes. If you need something who should you ask? Who’s door are you going to knock on? If Jesus opens his door to you, then what reason do you have to believe he will slam it on your face later on?

Ask, and you shall receive.

If a son asks his father for food does his father give him a snake…

Read Matthew chapter 7 and tell me how you will be saved by your works? It’s not there.

 

[Lisa44]

**If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” **2 Pet 2

Now you are switching verses. May we address Matthew 7 first? Then after we address Matthew 7 then we’ll go on to another verse?

 

[Lisa44]

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2

These verses are about false prophets (bad trees). Why else are they called a dog and a sow, “returning”? They are not God’s children, they are FALSE PROPHETS. The same people warned about in Matthew 7.

 

[Lisa44]

Okay. I can agree with that. They “believed” but were never saved. This is counter to Protestant theology, where salvation is from faith alone, but completely consistent with Catholic theology, which requires baptism to get in the state of grace and works of love to stay there.

They prophesied in Jesus name, but that doesn’t mean they were speaking for Jesus, does it. It means that they were saying what they wanted to say and CLAIMED it was from Jesus. Same with the miracles they claimed. Jesus didn’t know them because they weren’t speaking for him, they were simply using his name for their own schemes. There are plenty of “peachers” out there doing the same thing today.

No, he won’ rip it away but that doesnt mean we won’t throw it away by sinning.

If your child runs away, you can’t feed him. If your child refuses to eat, you can’t feed them

That is never the issue. The issue is the children turning their back on Jesus.

Children do turn their backs on their parents! That is the whole point, but the parents do not stop loving them. If you think you will never turn your back on God then think about Peter, he loved Jesus with all his heart and he still denied him three times.

 

[fhansen]

Now you are switching verses. May we address Matthew 7 first? Then after we address Matthew 7 then we’ll go on to another verse?

OK, nothing in Mt 7 tells us that a person can’t stop asking, stop knocking, can’t turn back away from God, can’t undermine their own foundation. Our free will is no more nullified than was Adam & Eve’s. And 2 Pet 2 certainly supports this notion much more forcefully than any verse in scripture which might be construed to support the idea than salvation cannot be forfeited.

 

[fhansen]

Children do turn their backs on their parents! That is the whole point, but the parents do not stop loving them. If you think you will never turn your back on God then think about Peter, he loved Jesus with all his heart and he still denied him three times.

Then it’s not even up to us. If this is the case, why would God even bother to differentiate between children who seek Him and the children who don’t?Or does He just like sending some to hell arbitrarily?

 

[paul_c]

Hi, Paul C,

In theory, I think you are correct about we benefit from exchanges.

As a practical matter, I would simply present the exchanges that have actually taken place for the past 20+ pages. These ‘exchanges’ can simply be summarized by, “Show me where in Scripture it says…” or “Where did I say…” etc. While it may be difficult to actually assess the quality of ‘exchanges’ - I think these have been so uniformly evasive and non-resonsive that to call them ‘exchanges’ is to give them a rating that is simply undeserved.

Naturally, you are free to do as you wish - but, as Cat Herder has mentioned this is not really productive. I have told this poster good bye and have not responded to any of his posts, but I am engaging in this thread and posting as I think appropriate. Maybe you would like to try this. Admittedly it is not as nearly combative … but I think we can have good posts.

Give it some thought.

God bess

Just remember, that questions not answered can still have the desired effect. Often, in fact, those questions get the other person rethinking their position, even if they aren’t willing to discuss it. I have never seen anyone just abruptly say. " you are right, I need to become Catholic. " But I’ve seen several cases where people you are arguinng with vehemently suddenly go off line and several months later re-emerge with RCIA as their new religion. Its a huge decision, of course. So when someone is spending this much time online, you know you have their interest. And often, they will be the most challenging right before they decide on a change. This will be followed by “radio silence.” The holy spirit works in mysterious ways. Sometimes he uses us for his purposes without us even knowing it. So don’t get frustrated. Just keep answering questions to the best of your ability. That’s all we are called to do.