Once Saved Always Saved?

[Lisa44]

We have no idea if he lost his salvation, Lisa! We are saved, essentially, when we die. And as we don’t know what would have happened if he had died an hour after denying Jesus, no one can answer this question.

You have no idea if Peter is saved!? Then why are you following his teachings?

 

[TinaG]

Well, OK, we certainly can’t prove anything by scripture alone, seeing as Protestants come down on both sides of this question. So, bearing in mind that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, I’ll prove it by the Catechism, the testimony of the only entity granted authority to speak on these matters:

**1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621
**

That should settle it then.

Sorry, we have hardly begun.

we certainly can’t prove anything by scripture alone,

False. Do you mean in general or in this exact case?
Prove it.

seeing as Protestants come down on both sides of this question

irrelevant.

bearing in mind that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth

one of the statements we disagree with concerning its interpretation
QUOTE]Catechism, the testimony of the only entity granted authority to speak on these matters
The good old circular argument again. Now PR will say it is spiral. Then we go around so more. If you accept the Catechism as authoritative, then I suppose you have proven it. But I don’t as you well know, so you are being illogical, by using an authority that you knew I would not find authoritative.

You argue, then, on the basis of no common authority, on the one hand rejecting Biblical authority and on the other hand providing one you knew I would reject. So you have proven nothing.

-Tina “Call Me Spocky” G

 

[PRmerger]

You have no idea if Peter is saved!? Then why are you following his teachings?

I said I had no idea if he lost his salvation.

And here it comes…the icon I hardly ever use, but reserve for very special posts that are the most precipitating: <drum roll, please!>

 

[Lisa44]

OK then , Peter, himself, tells us what can happen in 2 Peter 2.

What can happen to who? Who are the people he is talking about in 2 Peter 2?

 

[paul_c]

You have no idea if Peter is saved!? Then why are you following his teachings?

you asked if he lost his salvation. You are neglecting the fact that having fallen from grace, he could and was reconciled and return to grace.

 

[Lisa44]

I said I had no idea if he lost his salvation.

And here it comes…the icon I hardly ever use, but reserve for very special posts that are the most precipitating: <drum roll, please!>

You don’t know if he lost his salvation? Really? That is the same thing as saying you don’t know if he* is* saved. If you doubt whether Peter is saved… then…?

 

[PRmerger]

False. Do you mean in general or in this exact case?
Prove it.

Well! Coming back is wonderful! With spit and vinegar (or however the saying goes–I’m not a farm girl and I think the etymology of that is somewhere rural ) to boot!

We mean in general.

Here’s the proof: the tens of thousands of Christian denominations who have attempted to “prove by Scripture alone” that something means something. That is the fruit of this non-biblical paradigm. IOW chaos and confusion.

 

[TinaG]

you asked if he lost his salvation. You are neglecting the fact that having fallen from grace, he could and was reconciled and return to grace.

Ah, here we go.

Being predestined to heaven, he never lost his salvation.

There. That puts the thread back on track.

-Tina “:yeah_me:” G

 

[TinaG]

Well! Coming back is wonderful! With spit and vinegar (or however the saying goes–I’m not a farm girl and I think the etymology of that is somewhere rural ) to boot!

We mean in general.

Here’s the proof: the tens of thousands of Christian denominations who have attempted to “prove by Scripture alone” that something means something. That is the fruit of this non-biblical paradigm. IOW chaos and confusion.

So God is inarticulate? So much so that someone has to explain what He said to everyone else? And as if the Catholic Church has delivered us from chaos and confusion…

-Tina “Expert in Being Inarticulate” G

 

[TinaG]

Not trying to be spitty or vinegary.

Sorry if I come off that way.

-Tina “Whoops” G

 

[Lisa44]

Where does it say that Peter repented, confessed and did penance and then re-entered a state of grace? Where also does it say he lost his state of grace in the first place?

you asked if he lost his salvation. You are neglecting the fact that having fallen from grace, he could and was reconciled and return to grace.

Yes, and you did not answer my question above.

 

[pablope]

No,

The Father ALWAYS answers the request of the Son. It’s amazing to me that anyone believes salvation can be lost. Simply amazing!

Yes, one can indeed lose salvation.

Have you not come across Rom 11…

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but **kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. **

What do you think being cut off mean? What do you think “provided that you continue in his kindness” means?

Does that not mean that one has to persevere in being clean to remain grafted in?

 

[PRmerger]

So God is inarticulate?

It seems that the Protestant God is. :sad_yes:

He cannot make it clear whether
-baptism is an ordinance or a sacrament
-Sunday is the day of worship or Saturday is
-women can be ordained or they can’t be
-the Eucharist is a symbol or the Real Presence
-there are 2 sacraments or 3 or 4 or none
-we are OSAS or we can lose our salvation
-divorce and re-marriage is adultery or just another life choice
-abortion is an abomination or a sacrament
-we’re going to get Raptured or wait for the Second Coming

 

[pablope]

Where does it say that Peter repented, confessed and did penance and then re-entered a state of grace? Where also does it say he lost his state of grace in the first place?

Mark’s gospel recounts that Peter “wept bitterly”. I think the Matthew and Luke say this as well also.

 

[PRmerger]

You don’t know if he lost his salvation…?

finish the question you asked.

I don’t know if he lost his salvation when he denied Christ 3 times.

Maybe he did, and if he had been struck dead after the 3rd time, he would have been in hell.

Maybe he didn’t and if he had been struck dead 1 minute after he repented, he would have gone to purgatory.

I dunno. And neither do you.

 

[fhansen]

False. Do you mean in general or in this exact case?
Prove it.

False? Prove that, with some “uncircular” reasoning. Nothing conclusive can be proved with scripture alone.

 

[karaleigh]

The answer is no, as I said in my last post, and I cited Rom 7:21-23 as support.

Death releases one from the physical. In the realm of the physical, even in the persons of the redeemed, a principle of evil and sin are present (Rom 7:21-23).

I can’t think of any Scriptural statements addressing that issue, can you?

Therefore, anything I say about that would be conjecture, and the same would be true for any statements you make about that, unless of course, you’re able to support your statements from Scripture. Are you?

Did you choose the time of your physical birth? Are were you “somehow forced” to be born? I think the same is true of death, don’t you?

Because it does.

In some theories, Heaven, Paradise, and Hades are three separate places. Heaven is at rapture, Hades is at the death of Satan, and Paradise is for those who survived the tribulation and were present at the time Jesus returns to made a new earth.(John’s Book of Revelation. I found most of the bible to be written in trinity. That would make, respectfully, heaven-faithful, Hades-sinners, and paradise, agnostic and atheistic…or, living with their sins, just nice people. :tiphat:

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TinaG,

Welcome to the thread.

Why not take the initiative now, and prove that he predestines one, some, a few, many, all (take your pick) to Hell?

The responses from the Catholic Catechism are valid to me. If they are not valid to you, then please tell us why.

Looking forward to hearing form you.

God bless

I invite you to prove that He predestines no one to hell.

-Tina “Not That I Go Along with Reprobation Anyway Except as a Logical Deduction” G

 

[TinaG]

I think we have gotten seriously off topic.

-Tina “Ooops” G

 

[PRmerger]

I think we have gotten seriously off topic.

-Tina “Ooops” G

Oh, topic-schmopic. I leave it to the mods to rein us in.

I rather like it when topics veer off on tangents. It mimics real life conversations that never remain on topic. I imagine us all sitting around someone’s backyard patio, sipping some wine and eating something deliciously unhealthy for us, discussing religion. And naturally, in scenarios such as this, topics diverge, often into more interesting things!