Once Saved Always Saved?

[fhansen]

That’s pretty much what Pelagius said.

Pelagius taught that man didn’t need God (grace) in order to be righteous (overcome sin). Catholicism teaches that man cannot be righteous without grace, but he still doesn’t need to accept it. A drowning man can’t be saved without someone throwing a life preserver. But if he doesn’t grab onto it he can’t be saved either.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fhansen,

We either cooperate with the Grace of God, or we slowly decline into a life of sin and ultimate despair. This is the way we see life and his is how we will unite our Faith with Works - praying daily for our union with Christ in Heaven.

God bless

Pelagius taught that man didn’t need God (grace) in order to be righteous (overcome sin). Catholicism teaches that man cannot be righteous without grace, but he still doesn’t need to accept it. A drowning man can’t be saved without someone throwing a life preserver. But if he doesn’t grab onto it he can’t be saved either.

 

[jmoneyideas]

I posted this in a on going debate with my ex pastor…Here is what he said to me in reference to me disagreeing with Predestination…

You are right about Romans 3:23 but the text does not stand alone brother. The Apostle Paul is establishing that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile and that none are justified or righteous (Read Romans chapters 1,2,3:20). No text in the Word of God stands on its own. You have to read the context always. The same goes for Hebrews 10:26-29. However, I will consider this portion of text and tell you that the Bible is clear in its teaching that those whom are regenerated (born again) have died to the law of sin and death and are alive with Christ to perform the works that he has prepared beforehand. Mortal sin is a definition that Roman Catholic Cathesism invented to explain the necessity of continual Sacraments since the infusion of grace (and salvation) at baptism(as a baby) would be depleted and removed after having committed a mortal sin. Am I right in my definition? If I’m mistaken, please correct me. As far as disproving Calvanism, that is not what I’m interested in. As for the passage of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 you have to read the context. If you read John 3:16 by itself it is understood that Christ died for everyone however, God knows whom would receive or reject the Son! To see this you have to read from the beginning of John. Finally, why do we need a Redemeer if God already predestined his elect? Simply because it magnifies and demonstrates God’s sovereignty over His Creation and not the magnification of Man choosing and “assisting” God for his own salvation. The plan of redemption was before the creation of man because God foreknew that man would need to be redeemed. If you disagree with this then you are stating that God is not sovereign and that He planned redemption after man disobeyed and fell from grace. Read Romans 9 before you answer brother. God bless!

 

[PRmerger]

I posted this in a on going debate with my ex pastor…Here is what he said to me in reference to me disagreeing with Predestination…

You are right about Romans 3:23 but the text does not stand alone brother. The Apostle Paul is establishing that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile and that none are justified or righteous (Read Romans chapters 1,2,3:20). No text in the Word of God stands on its own. You have to read the context always. The same goes for Hebrews 10:26-29. However, I will consider this portion of text and tell you that the Bible is clear in its teaching that those whom are regenerated (born again) have died to the law of sin and death and are alive with Christ to perform the works that he has prepared beforehand.

None of this is inconsistent with Catholicism.

Mortal sin is a definition that Roman Catholic Cathesism invented to explain the necessity of continual Sacraments since the infusion of grace (and salvation) at baptism(as a baby) would be depleted and removed after having committed a mortal sin.

Here he will have to offer some proof that this is an invention. If he could cite the teachings before it was “invented” and then the time it was created, that would be helpful.

As for the passage of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 you have to read the context. If you read John 3:16 by itself it is understood that Christ died for everyone however, God knows whom would receive or reject the Son! To see this you have to read from the beginning of John.

Again, he is quite Catholic when he says the above.

Finally, why do we need a Redemeer if God already predestined his elect? Simply because it magnifies and demonstrates God’s sovereignty over His Creation and not the magnification of Man choosing and “assisting” God for his own salvation.

It would be helpful if he supplied a bible verse that says that “we need a redeemer because it magnifies and demonstrates God’s sovereignty over His Creation and not the magnification of Man choosing and “assisting” God for his own salvation.”

The plan of redemption was before the creation of man because God foreknew that man would need to be redeemed.

Amen!

 

[fhansen]

Hi, Fhansen,

I have been tracking these posts for some time now, and without fear of contradiction, I can tell you that you have not made any misreadings on anything. This guy must have gone fishing … judging from the number of red herrings he’s been throwing out!

You know, in my opinion, it is sort of sad, the thread is coming to a close shortly and we are reading more circular comments and simply silly material that is a far cry from adult dialogue on a serious topic… and, I am not really sure why the intensity has seemed to increase along with the vinegar.

Anyway - your posts are great.

God bless

Thanks, tqualey, I have to say it really is nice to hear a little support now and then-I should do it more often myself!

 

[Sig]

My priest had a series of homilies which he preached about the nature of salvation. He said salvation is two fold, one is objective, the other subjective. Both Protestants and Catholics believe in objective salvation. There is no salvation without faith in Christ (except very rare cases) and we must have faith in order to be saved. However not all believe in subjective salvation, only Catholics do. Subjective salvation is the step after objective salvation, in short it means to strive after perfection and virtues and obedience of God that we can remains in the grace God has given us. This marks salvation as a process because you must persevere til the end. Perseverance therefore is a constant theme throughout Scripture. Thus a Catholic saying: “I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved”.

Right, Catholics are the only ones who strive after perfection and virtues and obedience of God.

Can you say, “baloney!”

 

[Sig]

I think you are not understanding what “eternal life” is, Sig.

Eternal life exists in the “age to come”. That is, when you cannot perish.

Not when you’re on earth.

"who will not receive many times as much at this time and** in the age to come, eternal life.”-**-Luke 18:30

Jesus says in Jn 5:24 that believers have passed into eternal life. The verb is in the indicative mood, IOW, the believer possesses eternal life right now. He will never perish. I cannot understand the resistance people have to Jesus, and His promises. But they have it.

 

[pablope]

In your opinion, and thank you for the more rational words and thoughts.

I reject your understanding of course, but you are certainly entitled to be wrong.

And you are not? So you have declared yourself to be so perfect you cannot do anything wrong?

 

[Sig]

They will never perish AS LONG AS they remain in Him (Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. ~John 15:4)

No, it’s an unconditional statement made by Christ. No strings attached. You attach strings to it, but He doesn’t.

I mean, what part of salvation is not by works don’t you understand?

Why do you work for what you can’t earn, and for what I, as a believer, already possess?

"Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price" Is 55:1.Jesus has paid the price, in full. That’s why salvation’s free. Ha!

 

[Sig]

And you are not?

I am not.

So you have declared yourself to be so perfect you cannot do anything wrong?

I have not.

 

[Sig]

You cannot make a claim here, Sig, and then not back it up.

It makes it appear as if you, well, just made it up.

“Appear” being the operative word.

I do not make things up. Do a google search on Pelagianism. It’s not that hard. Pelagian taught that God holds many responsible only for those things that man is able to do.

 

[Sig]

Hi, Fhansen,

As far as I know, Calvin was no friend of free will. Here is a quote from Calvin:

This liberty is compatible with our being depraved, the servants of sin, able to do nothing but sin. In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title? An admirable freedom! That man is not forced to be the servant of sin, while he is, however, ethelodoulos (a voluntary slave); his will being bound by the fetters of sin. – Institutes of Christian Religion, 1:228-29 (2.2.6-7)

Now, this was written in 1536. But, it really is not as dated as it may seem. Some on this thread deny free will - and freely choose to communicate this… and then argue with those who point out that they are using their free will to announce that they have no free will…

God bless

It’s as true as when it was written.

Go ahead, refute it using biblical support. Go ahead.

<crickets chirping, and chirping, and chirping, and chirping.>

 

[Sig]

Pelagius taught that man didn’t need God (grace) in order to be righteous (overcome sin). Catholicism teaches that man cannot be righteous without grace, but he still doesn’t need to accept it. A drowning man can’t be saved without someone throwing a life preserver. But if he doesn’t grab onto it he can’t be saved either.

Pelagius taught pretty much what you said: God holds man responsible only for those things man is able to do.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Having reached the thousand post limit.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/23hofvljpg.gif

Excess posts have been split off in SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)