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FutureCatholic1
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why is this doctrine wrong got into a talk the other day with a baptist and he tore me apart on this i could use some help and stuff on why this is a wrong teaching
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DJK100
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to get you started…why is this doctrine wrong got into a talk the other day with a baptist and he tore me apart on this i could use some help and stuff on why this is a wrong teaching
catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation
catholic.com/magazine/articles/are-you-saved-if-only
catholic.com/magazine/articles/it%E2%80%99s-not-over-%E2%80%98til-it%E2%80%99s-over
catholic.com/magazine/articles/justification-sola-fide
catholic.com/quickquestions/doesnt-1-john-511-13-prove-once-saved-always-saved
Don’t get down. Learn your faith so you can defend better the next time. Rest assured the Church has a more than adequate response to your Baptist debator.
Hope these help.
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thessalonian
Guest
From a standpoint of pure logic there is a huge problem with OSAS. Protestants are very up on the fact that no man is infallible. Well there are many interpretations of salvation from Pelagianism, to Aremenianism, to Catholicism, to Eternal Security, to Once Saved Always saved to universalism. I kind of put them in an order and this order is actually a continum from Man being able to contribute to his salvation to all men are saved.
Now here is my point. Protestants will say they are 100% assured of their salvation based on their interpretation of the scriptures. But they are not infallible and so their interpretation could be wrong. So even if they are 95% sure their scriptural interpretation is correct, by the rules of logic they cannot be 100% assured of their salvation. Follow?
Now here is my point. Protestants will say they are 100% assured of their salvation based on their interpretation of the scriptures. But they are not infallible and so their interpretation could be wrong. So even if they are 95% sure their scriptural interpretation is correct, by the rules of logic they cannot be 100% assured of their salvation. Follow?
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thessalonian
Guest
One of my favorite passages regarding OSAS is in Luke 12. Jesus presents the story of the steward whom is doing well when the master comes and is rewarded. But the passages says if the master is delayed and THAT steward begins to get drunk and mistreat the servants he will be treated as an UNBELIEVER. Pretty clear.
That baptist has his list of proof text passages of course and so he has left you a little beaten down. Been there. Stay on it. There are so many passages that refute OSAS and the passages he uses are generally taken out of context. Many that sound like OSAS are about God’s foreknowledge of who will be saved. Yet for us to know we must abide in him and he never takes away our free will to turn away.
In this regard protestants like Romans 8:38 which says that nothing shall separate us from the love of God and goes through a whole list of trials and tribulations. The one that it leaves out however is SIN!!! That is our choice. God will not abandon us but we can turn from him.
This is another passage I like. Wonder if they think it is no longer true?
Ez 3:20] Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
That baptist has his list of proof text passages of course and so he has left you a little beaten down. Been there. Stay on it. There are so many passages that refute OSAS and the passages he uses are generally taken out of context. Many that sound like OSAS are about God’s foreknowledge of who will be saved. Yet for us to know we must abide in him and he never takes away our free will to turn away.
In this regard protestants like Romans 8:38 which says that nothing shall separate us from the love of God and goes through a whole list of trials and tribulations. The one that it leaves out however is SIN!!! That is our choice. God will not abandon us but we can turn from him.
This is another passage I like. Wonder if they think it is no longer true?
Ez 3:20] Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
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jschutzm
Guest
As the first poster responded… there are a lot of Catholic resources on this topic.
But assuming you came here to hear some perspectives…
here’s mine.
But assuming you came here to hear some perspectives…
here’s mine.
- abbreviated OSAS errodes freewill. In that, once we make some sort of ‘sinner’s prayer’ or one time assension of faith, or intellectual ascent - then we can do nothing to fall from that Grace. That is… our subsequent free choices don’t allow us to willfully deny God or abandon him. This degrades freewill and makes it a joke.
So OSAS seems, at least on the surface, to be in stark opposition to freewill. - that’s one way of looking at it. - There are many passages that say we must “endure to the end” not the middle… not 'til we believe or have faith but 'til the end. When is the “end” that the bible talks about? - Revelations says that Jesus will come “on the last day” and it is within these passages that it also talks about those who endured to the end. So the bible makes it very clear that we must abide IN Christ and follow him until the end… NOT until we give our lives to him or say the sinner’s prayer or “become saved” for our lives are not over at that point.
- The bible talks about how we are all part of the vein and how if any of us fall away, God, like a farmer, will cut off the dead veins, separating them from the rest.
The passages are not talking about unbelievers, because the group being addressed are Christians. So we know that Christians CAN fall away, and if they do, by their own intentions… then Christ will cut us off.
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FutureCatholic1
Guest
he tried to point to 1 cor 5:5 [To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ]. as having to do with osas i don’t see it id like to get other peoples opinion on this verse./ also how would you counter john 3:16
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pablope
Guest
Matt 7:21…21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.he tried to point to 1 cor 5:5 [To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ]. as having to do with osas i don’t see it id like to get other peoples opinion on this verse./ also how would you counter john 3:16
Heb 10:
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
OSAS believers usually believe that Christ’s sacrifice is for the saved…so in Heb 10 above…there is no sacrifice left for deliberately sinning…and look at v 29…why is St. Paul asking this question…sinning is treating as unholy the blood of the covenant…so ask them the same thing…how much severely do you think you will be punished for insulting the Spirit of Grace?
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jschutzm
Guest
The problem with most OSAS Christians is that they believe that IF you sin…then you were never TRULY saved to begin with. Because in their mind, since no one can snatch you out of God’s hands… then you can’t stop being a Christian, once you truly are. So if a Christian does fall away…then they were NEVER a Christian to begin with. This is the #1 problem with OSAS. You can never be SURE you are saved, because if you ever sin or fall away… then you apparently were only tricking yourself and were never a “true” Christian to begin with.
This concept of “true” Christians and people who think they are…but are not, is NOT a biblical concept.
That’s what I’m arguing against… this idea that once you are saved, God changes you and you will never sin or fall from grace or stop believing in him. – That sorta child-like view of salvation totally errodes freewill to nothing more then a joke.
Be VERY weary of those who take solitary verses, pluck them out and base a theology on a handful of ‘pet verses’ or their favorite ones.
A Catholic would wholeheartedly agree with John 3:16 - but the word “believe” is being interpreted by this person to be ‘by belief alone’ aka “Sola Fide” - usually referred to as “by faith alone” – but that’s not what it is saying. That would be reading into it or inserting an “alone” or the word “only” when it doesn’t exist.
Define “believe” ? – if we believe, does that mean we can not then not believe and that if we stop believing, that we NEVER believed to begin with? - that’s the counter-question that needs asking.
I once believed in Santa Claus. The fact that I now don’t believe… does that mean I never “truly” believed in Santa Claus? - NO. I TRULY believed. But later I learned that the magical elf put forth by the pop-culture, doesn’t exist. So I abandoned that faith… I changed my mind. I willfully rejected that.
Heaven is not assured us 'til we die and God judges us. Before that time… we can follow God’s teachings OR we can reject him. We can be a Christian, turn our back on him, then realizing our faults, turn back to him and follow him. We are free to do this throughout our lives until we die.
Catholics don’t put a limit on “belief” to mean ONLY an intellectual idea or a blind faith. And the bible backs us up. By “belief” or “faith” the bible means a faith that we act on and are working out, one day at a time… 'til the end. A Living Faith. James makes it clear that “faith alone” or without action is dead. - useless.
Traditional OSASers would say that if they were capable of incense and other sexually immoral acts… then they were not “true christians” and weren’t really “saved” - because they could not turn away from God and sin, if they were.
This concept of “true” Christians and people who think they are…but are not, is NOT a biblical concept.
That’s what I’m arguing against… this idea that once you are saved, God changes you and you will never sin or fall from grace or stop believing in him. – That sorta child-like view of salvation totally errodes freewill to nothing more then a joke.
The KEY to the Catholic position is that none of these verses are in contradiction or are to be taken by themselves. The entire bible needs to be interpreted in a consistent manner. You can’t take single verses out of context, or else you can make the bible say all sorts of things it never intended to mean.he tried to point to 1 cor 5:5 [To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ]. as having to do with osas i don’t see it id like to get other peoples opinion on this verse./ also how would you counter john 3:16
Be VERY weary of those who take solitary verses, pluck them out and base a theology on a handful of ‘pet verses’ or their favorite ones.
A Catholic would wholeheartedly agree with John 3:16 - but the word “believe” is being interpreted by this person to be ‘by belief alone’ aka “Sola Fide” - usually referred to as “by faith alone” – but that’s not what it is saying. That would be reading into it or inserting an “alone” or the word “only” when it doesn’t exist.
Define “believe” ? – if we believe, does that mean we can not then not believe and that if we stop believing, that we NEVER believed to begin with? - that’s the counter-question that needs asking.
I once believed in Santa Claus. The fact that I now don’t believe… does that mean I never “truly” believed in Santa Claus? - NO. I TRULY believed. But later I learned that the magical elf put forth by the pop-culture, doesn’t exist. So I abandoned that faith… I changed my mind. I willfully rejected that.
Heaven is not assured us 'til we die and God judges us. Before that time… we can follow God’s teachings OR we can reject him. We can be a Christian, turn our back on him, then realizing our faults, turn back to him and follow him. We are free to do this throughout our lives until we die.
Catholics don’t put a limit on “belief” to mean ONLY an intellectual idea or a blind faith. And the bible backs us up. By “belief” or “faith” the bible means a faith that we act on and are working out, one day at a time… 'til the end. A Living Faith. James makes it clear that “faith alone” or without action is dead. - useless.
- 1Cor 5:5 - this actually proves the Catholic view. Read just above that… 1Cor 5:1-10
The book of Corinthians is a letter written by Paul to the Christians in Corinth.
It shows that he exercised authority over them… instructing them. He is rebuking them
Traditional OSASers would say that if they were capable of incense and other sexually immoral acts… then they were not “true christians” and weren’t really “saved” - because they could not turn away from God and sin, if they were.
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Speedypizza
Guest
I feel so bad for you walking away feelings “beaten” and I will show you how to never again end up like that when debating with a Protestant. I could talk about the whole once saved, always saved issue, but others on here have already dealt with it. Out of all of the doctrine they like to fight about, this is the one where we have FAR more verses then they do. However back to how not to ever lose a debate with a Protestant again.
- Remember that their whole religion is BASED not only on the Bible, but on the belief that if you ask the Holy Spirit for guidance, HE will correctly interpret scripture for you. Now that you know that, you cannot ever lose a debate with them, you will tie EVERY time with this statement: “I prayed to the Holy Spirit and he led to to know that it means __________ when taken in the context of the whole of scripture.” They have no comeback for this, because if they do, then they have to admit that there is no way of knowing WHAT anything in the Bible should mean.
- This one is just more of a basic approach that you can use in almost any circumstance. “That is a great question, and I am not sure about the answer. I am going to find out and get back to you.” I am not sure where you met this guy, but if it is somebody I don’t know, I ask for their e-mail, find an answer (I find asking people on here is a great way to get a few different answers in very short order.) and send it off to him.
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FutureCatholic1
Guest
Speedypizza he did beat me but before i left his house [he is the step dad of a good friend of mine] i let him know that i would study up and get back to him
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jschutzm
Guest
Please don’t flake on that promise. More damage can be done by NOT ever getting back to him, then by giving a respectable answer, even if he blows you off.Speedypizza he did beat me but before i left his house [he is the step dad of a good friend of mine] i let him know that i would study up and get back to him
One thing I’ve heard from numerous apologists is: It is OK to admit you don’t know, that actually can build respect - but if you promise to get back to them… by all means DO.
Or else you lose credibility big time and by to a lesser degree, so does the Catholic faith.
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FutureCatholic1
Guest
i have every intention on getting back to himPlease don’t flake on that promise. More damage can be done by NOT ever getting back to him, then by giving a respectable answer, even if he blows you off.
One thing I’ve heard from numerous apologists is: It is OK to admit you don’t know, that actually can build respect - but if you promise to get back to them… by all means DO.
Or else you lose credibility big time and by to a lesser degree, so does the Catholic faith.
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formerlysure
Guest
For Catholics, we don’t seek to be reborn or “saved” in some dramatic fashion. Rather we seek to more closely flow God and live in a accordance with His expectations as are taught by our Church. Through reconciliation we confess and take responsibility for sins, make amends through penance, ask for and receive forgiveness and try again to do better. As we never become perfect, we must continue this process regularly throughout our lives.
Being reborn does not save a Christian from future sin so to me, it seems to be a fallacy in that regard. If the term is meant to convey acceptance of God into one’s heart it is a beginning of great value. But accepting God into our lives is not enough …we must continue to learn, adopt, live and perfect our thinking and actions.
Being reborn does not save a Christian from future sin so to me, it seems to be a fallacy in that regard. If the term is meant to convey acceptance of God into one’s heart it is a beginning of great value. But accepting God into our lives is not enough …we must continue to learn, adopt, live and perfect our thinking and actions.
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1AugustSon7
Guest
10] Jesus saith to him: He that is washed, needeth not but to wash his feet…
“He that is washed” (i.e., is bathed) corresponds to the Sacrament of Baptism; however, if this sufficed ‘once and for all’, as the Protests argue, then there would remain no need to “wash his feet”, which corresponds to the Sacrament of Penance.
Our Lord is making a typically apt analogy from daily life in the Holy Land: the people, though washed/bathed, still continually needed to clean their feet during the day, because their feet would get dirty from travelling.
“He that is washed” (i.e., is bathed) corresponds to the Sacrament of Baptism; however, if this sufficed ‘once and for all’, as the Protests argue, then there would remain no need to “wash his feet”, which corresponds to the Sacrament of Penance.
Our Lord is making a typically apt analogy from daily life in the Holy Land: the people, though washed/bathed, still continually needed to clean their feet during the day, because their feet would get dirty from travelling.
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Richard320
Guest
St Paul himself worried that he wouldn’t make the final cut.
But it’s an unwinnable argument anyway - if someone gets saved then backslides, then that’s proof that they weren’t really saved after all…
So…if HE didn’t take it for granted that he would win the race (Enter Heaven) for all he did for the Church, it’s presumptuous to think we will just by “getting saved.”All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it. Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
But it’s an unwinnable argument anyway - if someone gets saved then backslides, then that’s proof that they weren’t really saved after all…
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Speedypizza
Guest
Another thing you can bring up is that NOBODY had ever heard to this idea of having a sudden conversion for Christ before the 1800’s. If you were to bring back all of the great Protestant leaders and explain it to them they would first laugh at you then most likely throw you out of their church. This idea of “asking Jesus into your heart as your personal lord and Savior” is not only not in the Bible, but goes directly against the main message of the new testament, that we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling because we must seek to enter by the narrow gate, for wide is the way that leads to damnation.
The first time you hear of this idea is from the traveling tent evangelists. These were preachers who made a living going from town to town having these wild “revival meetings” Now some of these were good, but very confused, men really trying to serve God, however it also attracted many con-men who would roll into town, fleece the people, often telling them he was raising money for a big church in town, and leave a few buns in the oven of the teen girls in town. Not that different then a few TV evangelists now is it? Then as quickly as he came, he was gone.
The first time you hear of this idea is from the traveling tent evangelists. These were preachers who made a living going from town to town having these wild “revival meetings” Now some of these were good, but very confused, men really trying to serve God, however it also attracted many con-men who would roll into town, fleece the people, often telling them he was raising money for a big church in town, and leave a few buns in the oven of the teen girls in town. Not that different then a few TV evangelists now is it? Then as quickly as he came, he was gone.
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pablope
Guest
This thread should give you all kinds of arguments for OSAS…and their refutations…forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=621340&highlight=once+saved+always+saved&page=65Speedypizza he did beat me but before i left his house [he is the step dad of a good friend of mine] i let him know that i would study up and get back to him
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Pitcharan
Guest
The Bible demolishes OSAS at the very outset. In Genesis we had the Tree of Life and The Tree of Knowledge. Our first parents had the freedom to make their choice.why is this doctrine wrong got into a talk the other day with a baptist and he tore me apart on this i could use some help and stuff on why this is a wrong teaching
The most explicit demolition of OSAS may be found in books of Moses, when God offers the Israelites both Life and Death, urging them to choose Life.
When St. Paul himself was unsure of his own salvation; how can the OSAS thinkers be so sure of their salvation? “No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize”. (1Cor 9:27)* “—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling”*. (Php 2:12c)
However they may be right if this is what they meant: After the last judgement, once a person is saved it will be so for eternity
Salvation is merely offered and not doled out like a gift. Salvation is not an event but a process that is completed on the day of last judgment. If you want to know how one loses the offer of salvation, consider this:
Matthew 22
*The Parable of the Wedding Banquet
1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen*.”
Is it not clear from the above parable that the offer of salvation which was made firstly to Israel is now made to all mankind; but the ones who prove unworthy by their own attitude and conduct are bound to lose it?
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David
Guest
Talk about a coincidence, five minutes ago I learned this on a youtube video from an EWTN LIVE. episode.Another thing you can bring up is that NOBODY had ever heard to this idea of having a sudden conversion for Christ before the 1800’s. If you were to bring back all of the great Protestant leaders and explain it to them they would first laugh at you then most likely throw you out of their church. This idea of “asking Jesus into your heart as your personal lord and Savior” is not only not in the Bible, but goes directly against the main message of the new testament, that we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling because we must seek to enter by the narrow gate, for wide is the way that leads to damnation.
The first time you hear of this idea is from the traveling tent evangelists. These were preachers who made a living going from town to town having these wild “revival meetings” Now some of these were good, but very confused, men really trying to serve God, however it also attracted many con-men who would roll into town, fleece the people, often telling them he was raising money for a big church in town, and leave a few buns in the oven of the teen girls in town. Not that different then a few TV evangelists now is it? Then as quickly as he came, he was gone.
Peace
David
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perro_sarnoso
Guest
This is very correct.St Paul himself worried that he wouldn’t make the final cut.
So…if HE didn’t take it for granted that he would win the race (Enter Heaven) for all he did for the Church, it’s presumptuous to think we will just by “getting saved.”
But it’s an unwinnable argument anyway - if someone gets saved then backslides, then that’s proof that they weren’t really saved after all…
Those who absribe to OSAS (I can’t believe I used the acronym) are presuming salvation and assuming that God will overlook their sin.
Who is so pure and so sinless that he or she enters the kingdom of God directly to His presence?
The Theotokos for sure…but apart from her - who? And by the way, protestants don’t believe in Purgatory soooo…who goes straight to heaven?
How prideful , how presumtuous. OSAS is a false doctrine. But what can you expect from a religion that breaks away from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church?
Some day, with God’s grace, all true christians will return to the Catholic church where they came from. Remember St. John Bosco’s vision…keep your small ships and boat very close to the Catholic flagship if you want to survive the coming chastisement.
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