Once saved, always saved?

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Chuck_Finley said:
Just shows what you know. All of the scripture references I provided are older than your own Catholic Church, including several that pre-date even the incarnation of Christ, while the testimony of the ECFs I cited are well over 500 years old.
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Please tell us when you believe that the Catholic Church was founded.
 
Chuck_Finley said:
So far, every Catholic has told me that I’m wrong, but not one has explained what I’ve said that’s wrong, or what the correct understanding is. I’ve been told that I’m taking verses out of context, but no one has even tried to explain how I took them out of context or what the correct context is. I’ve been told that I’m “twisting verses to make scripture contradict itself” but no one has explained which verses I’ve posted contradict other verses. I’ve been told that I’m “ignorant” but nobody has explained what I’ve said that’s wrong or corrected it. I’vebeen told that I’m guilty of prooftexting, but nobody has given any examples.
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2 Peter 1:20

You are frustrated and lashing out because much of what you have learned occurred by violating this core biblical principle.
 
One of the most clear passages indicating a loss of salvation (and thus refuting OSAS) is found in Revelation.
Chapter 3:[5] He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Now, according to other passages in the New Testament having your name in that book of life means you are saved, but if one has a name in it that is blotted out, then the rest is self evident that they lost their salvation.
 
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To topic you will all return immediately and remain there or close this thread will I.
Seven off topic and personal posts have I removed.
 
I have an excuse: I was sucked into the vortex! No? OK, then. My bad. :o

I second what Church Militant posted from Revelation.
 
David_Alexander said:
May peace be with all of you, we all share passion for God.

I re-iterate the importance of good works because the scriptural debate can rage on and on and we can miss the practical necessity of being good! Not to mention the tribesman who has never heard the Word, how else might he be judged but by his actions?

That said, it is not for us to presume the ‘mind’ of God beyond knowing Him through true love.

Christ’s sacrifice for humanity should never be taken for granted.

Once saved always saved reduces the entire New Testament to four very misleading words.
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I agree with the importance of good works as well, of which we can’t take full credit for since it is the Holy Ghost which sanctifies us, giving us the will to do so. Unless you disagree with that.

But can you expound on why you feel OSAS reduces the NT?
 
Daizies said:
Okay, I’m feeling like a sucker today, so I’ll give it a shot.
However, I’m not going to address the whole argument at once, but one piece at a time. Proper exegesis takes a lot of time and effort, and I have other things to do today 😉
And too, if all I’m going to get is a glib remark, why bother doing all that work for nothing? 🤷 (sorry for that, I’m feeling a little pessimistic about people’s logic and rationality today 😦 )

I will start here:

So let us look at this verse piece by piece
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

Now looking at this verse, we see 5 criteria that must be met for this verse to apply. So let us look at each one individually
  1. once enlightened: or in other words, to have been made to see. Within the context of the preceding verses, we know that we are referring to the doctrine of Christ.
  2. have tasted the heavenly gift: again, within context, we can see this as the gift of faith and salvation, which is a gift from God.
  3. made partakers of the Holy Ghost: so, those who have received the Holy Spirit
  4. tasted the good word of God: So referring to those who have learned the word of God. Looking at Strong’s Hebrew and Greek dictionary, “tasted” also carries the implication of experienced.
Thus far, it is clear we are speaking of believers in general. But then this would imply that any sin would be irreconcilable if we were to stop here. so let us finish with the last criteria
  1. the powers of the world to come: Now from sentence structure we can re-state it as those who have tasted (or experienced) the powers of the world to come. Turning back to Strong’s, we see that powers means
    and world means:
    So we see that this means those who have experienced the miraculous powers of a Messianic period that is yet to come. Now what are we to make of that? It cannot refer to salvation although it is a miracle, as it is something that is presently occurring. As for physical miracles (healing, etc), again, this is an occurrence of the past and current ages.
    Perhaps then, we can take this as miraculous powers of the time when Christ returns again to rule the earth. In other words, those who have been granted special visions and miraculous powers of things to come (Saint John on the Island of Patmos springs to mind).
This then does not refer to just any Christian, but one who has been granted these special graces from God. So to go back to the whole, we can then take that if someone who had been granted these special graces were to apostatize, they cannot return, and this verse cannot be seen as referring to the permanence of salvation.

(References to Strong’s accessed via e-sword)
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Why did you stop? You didn’t finish the verse.
 
E_Thrower_II said:
Wouldn’t it be necessary for Paul to have knowledge of his salvation so he could grow and spread the good news?
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Hi, again, he had knowlege of Jesus., after all he was persecuting them ! What he didn’t have was baptism.

Acts. 9:18, Scales fell from his eyes,he got up and was baptized, it appears knowledge was not enough.

God Bless
onenow1 🙂
 
E_Thrower_II said:
I agree with the importance of good works as well, of which we can’t take full credit for since it is the Holy Ghost which sanctifies us, giving us the will to do so. Unless you disagree with that.
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It is Catholic teaching that we must cooperate with God;s grace. We must be docile to the Holy Spirit, or else He cannot work through us. God never violates our free will. Our cooperation with Him, as with our love of Him, cannot be forced upon us. It must be our decision. Any and all good that we accomplish is through the Holy Spirit. Yet, at times we resist. Without seeking God’s forgiveness for those times that we fail, we would all be lost.
E_Thrower_II said:
But can you expound on why you feel OSAS reduces the NT?
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It reduces the infinite wisdom contained in the totality of God’s message, the struggle that we have throughout our lives against evil, to a simple, single point in time decision. What is to motivate us to do anything with our faith, if we constantly remind ourselves that we are already saved?

Saint Paul described his life of faith and evangelization as running a race. It was a lifelong struggle, and he wanted to make sure that he had not run in vain. In 1 Corinthians 9:16, he teaches: “Woe is to me if I do not preach the Gospel”

How does that reflect an attitude of salvation in the past? As time went on and the end approached, Paul worked even harder.
 
E_Thrower_II said:
I agree with the importance of good works as well, of which we can’t take full credit for since it is the Holy Ghost which sanctifies us, giving us the will to do so. Unless you disagree with that.

But can you expound on why you feel OSAS reduces the NT?
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Hi E Thrower II, sorry it has taken so long to respond to you.

po18guy has made valid points above, but I just wanted to say that it is not my intention to win an argument here as such. I believe it was Archbishop Fulton Sheen who said “Win an argument, lose a soul” and this can be especially true of debates about spiritual matters. It should be more about winning over the soul I guess, than winning the debate!

In any case, the New Testament (and Old) in its letters and gospels alike repeatedly emphasizes the need for behaving in the right way. Just consider the Sermon On The Mount. The emphasis on the Holy Spirit is not to diminish our free will but so that we may be humble in our good deeds, giving credit to God for enabling us to be good.

By having strong faith, we are encouraged by the Holy Spirit to perform good works, and in performing good works, we affirm our faith and perhaps even encourage it in others. When Paul, for example, places emphasis on the saving qualities of faith, we should remember he is speaking of a faith that is true and would therefore naturally bear fruit. We should not pick and choose quotes to support a position, but rather take the writings as a whole and understand they are very much in line with the Church’s teaching.

OSAS is over-simplified and worryingly presumptious and does not appear to have much of an historical or scriptural basis. I don’t mean to seem uncharitible, but I just feel uncomfortable with the philosophy involved, and the flip side being that all those who do not have faith are condemned to hell. I am not saying I don’t want people to feel good! My brothers and sisters, I want us all to be loved and to be happy, as indeed we are loved by God, more than we can even imagine. I do not presume that God will not save every soul that has ever existed and ever will (I pray that He will), but it seems utterly unnecessary to justify bad behaviour by speaking of a faith which may be misconstrued and twisted to suit our frail human existence.

Faith is about belief, about trusting in what we cannot see. The price of faith is not being able to speak about what we cannot see with the kind of certainty that would please the human ego.

May God bless us all.
 
E_Thrower_II said:
When you say saved are you referring to eternal salvation or a timely salvation where I grow in the knowledge of my eternal salvation and the knowledge of my eternal salvation works in me a greater commitment to God through Christ saving (timely salvation) me from the sins I would have done if I had not committed to Christ.

Or do you feel I’m way off base?:o
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**
Hi, My point is God does not force us to love him, we have free will to choose
his love and remian in faith, as faith is also an action on our part. We are saved,
being saved and trying to stay saved would be more acceptable in Christian living.

Lulu**
 
Chuck_Finley said:
No, actually, I never accused you of “misinterpreting”. I don’t play that game.

You were in ministry and you don’t know what those passages teach?

And therein lies the difference. When you quote verses, you believe its a game. When we do it, we believe it’s crucial to understanding doctrine and growing in Christ.

So, where do any of the ECF say there is only one Book of Life?

OK. If backing up your own claims and being held to the same standard you want to hold me to is too much for you, then you may go.

In v 39, by saying “we are not” (we would include himself) a part of the people he referred to earlier in the passage.

Tose who spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace.

No, I didn’t miss it at all. It just wasn’t a part of the conversation.

Actually, he’s speaking to Gentiles about God’s plan to bring the Gospel to Gentiles.

If they continue to sin against the Gospel, that is, to reject the Gospel, yes.

You keep saying “Christ’s own words”, but you still haven’t shown where He allegedly said these things.

And what makes you think this refers to the Catholic Eucharist?

Physical healing is another topic for another thread. For now, I think you’ve got your hands full enough coming up with the verses where Jesus alleged said all of the things you claim He did.

You haven’t shown us “Christ’s own words”. You’ve shown us what you claim are “Christ’s own words”, but you still haven’t told us where in scripture we can go to see these words for ourselves.

What the scripture says? Yes. What you’re implying it says? No.
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I would like to ask Mr. Chuck a question. It’s too bad I missed this dialog. But which came first, The Church or the Bible"? When the bible was not yet compiled, what did the people do if they had questions on teachings?
Faith is not an emotion it is reason!
Why do the OSAS believe it is that easy, was it easy for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be beaten and scourged.
 
IrishCatholic12 said:
I would like to ask Mr. Chuck a question. It’s too bad I missed this dialog. But which came first, The Church or the Bible"? When the bible was not yet compiled, what did the people do if they had questions on teachings?
Faith is not an emotion it is reason!
Why do the OSAS believe it is that easy, was it easy for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be beaten and scourged.
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**I dont want to intercede here with your dialog, but I believe the OSAS false doctrine teaches their own way of living rather than what Christ wants. " Thy will be done" They forget that belief, sincere faith is also an action on our part. The confuse Mosiac Laws, Rituals, with Gods commandments to excuse their lawlessness, while they misrepresent and misquote Paul. Cherry picking a few verses wont save them, True faith and obedience will.

Lulu**
 
Note that Heb. 10:26 (“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”) does not refer to those who are saved, but to those who “have received the knowledge of the truth”.

Just having heard the Gospel (having “received the knowledge of the truth”) does not mean one is saved, as Christ pointed out in the parable of the sower (Matt. 13:18-23), some who had heard “the word of the kingdom” had not understood the Gospel truth to begin with, some understood, but fell away from the faith for various reasons, and some did understand it, and bore the fruit of it (did their best to obey Christ’s teachings) and endured in the faith. As Christ said in Matt. 10:22, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Remember that Christ said, “many be called, few are chosen” (Matt. 22:14). Heb. 10:26 refers to those who had been called, but were not chosen; those who thought professing to be a believer gave them a license to sin, those like Jude 1:4 refers to who had crept into the congregation and had turned the “grace of our God into lasciviousness” (i.e. licentiousness, lawlessness, immorality), those who had “counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing” (Heb. 10:29) by attempting to use the holy sacrifice of Christ as an excuse to sin and to act wickedly against their fellow man, their “neighbor”. Those who “wilfully sin” are not real believers; they were not ever saved, and therefore had never received the Holy Spirit.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto [have insulted] the Spirit of grace?
[KJV Bible]]

Christ said:
Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
[KJV Bible]

Jude 1:4, “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”)
[KJV Bible]
 
Lynda8888 said:
Note that Heb. 10:26 (“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”) does not refer to those who are saved, but to those who “have received the knowledge of the truth”.

Just having heard the Gospel (having “received the knowledge of the truth”) does not mean one is saved, as Christ pointed out in the parable of the sower (Matt. 13:18-23), some who had heard “the word of the kingdom” had not understood the Gospel truth to begin with, some understood, but fell away from the faith for various reasons, and some did understand it, and bore the fruit of it (did their best to obey Christ’s teachings) and endured in the faith. As Christ said in Matt. 10:22, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Remember that Christ said, “many be called, few are chosen” (Matt. 22:14). Heb. 10:26 refers to those who had been called, but were not chosen; those who thought professing to be a believer gave them a license to sin, those like Jude 1:4 refers to who had crept into the congregation and had turned the “grace of our God into lasciviousness” (i.e. licentiousness, lawlessness, immorality), those who had “counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing” (Heb. 10:29) by attempting to use the holy sacrifice of Christ as an excuse to sin and to act wickedly against their fellow man, their “neighbor”. Those who “wilfully sin” are not real believers; they were not ever saved, and therefore had never received the Holy Spirit.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto [have insulted] the Spirit of grace?
[KJV Bible]]

Christ said:
Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
[KJV Bible]

Jude 1:4, “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”)
[KJV Bible]
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**
You quote verses, however the question is, how do you interpret them.?
Bearing good fruits, for example.

Blessings.
Lulu**
 
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