Once saved, always saved?

  • Thread starter Thread starter freiabereinsam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
F

freiabereinsam

Guest
I think it’s time for a change of course here–this is a question about salvation. I have occasionally heard “once saved, always saved” (mostly, for some reason, from Protestants, but I don’t know if that is of any relevance). Do you consider this doctrine legitimate? Why or why not?
 
This is an entirely protestant idea foreign to and contrary to catholic teaching.

That sort of protestant thinking see salvation as a legal status, rather than the outcome of a lifelong relationship with God. Here’s their thinking in a nutshell
  1. All humans have sinned.
  2. The punishment for sin is death (and hell eternally).
  3. Jesus came and accepted the death sentence that was due for sinners.
  4. Those who repent of their sins and ask Jesus into their hearts, at that specific moment, their status is changed from guilty sinner. Instead, since Jesus received the sentence they were due, they are fully pardoned and receive his status of righteousness instead.
  5. Their legal status of righteous is a “cover” provided by Christ, not the outcome of actual actions in their own lives. Therefore their salvation is assured since the “cover” of Christ’s righteousness is eternal.
Catholics should find this line of logic totally bizarre. It essentially accuses God of deluding Himself into thinking that believers are perfect and deserving of heaven. It’s just weird.

Catholics, of course, understand Grace differently. We agree that our sins are grievous and constitute a fatal flaw that will destroy us eternally without divine intervention. We affirm that Christ’s Incarnation and sacrificial death on the cross was done to save us from this fate. But we understand the offer of Grace to be a free offer that must be accepted throughout a lifetime, not merely a single instant. Throughout a Grace-filled life, we are not “covered over” with Grace, but thoroughly changed and remade. We have to constantly choose to cooperate with Grace in that happening. It’s not over until it’s over. We do have an assurance of salvation, but it isn’t a one-time ticket. It’s a lifetime relationship.
 
manualman said:
This is an entirely protestant idea foreign to and contrary to catholic teaching.

That sort of protestant thinking see salvation as a legal status, rather than the outcome of a lifelong relationship with God. Here’s their thinking in a nutshell
  1. All humans have sinned.
  2. The punishment for sin is death (and hell eternally).
  3. Jesus came and accepted the death sentence that was due for sinners.
  4. Those who repent of their sins and ask Jesus into their hearts, at that specific moment, their status is changed from guilty sinner. Instead, since Jesus received the sentence they were due, they are fully pardoned and receive his status of righteousness instead.
  5. Their legal status of righteous is a “cover” provided by Christ, not the outcome of actual actions in their own lives. Therefore their salvation is assured since the “cover” of Christ’s righteousness is eternal.
Catholics should find this line of logic totally bizarre. It essentially accuses God of deluding Himself into thinking that believers are perfect and deserving of heaven. It’s just weird.

Catholics, of course, understand Grace differently. We agree that our sins are grievous and constitute a fatal flaw that will destroy us eternally without divine intervention. We affirm that Christ’s Incarnation and sacrificial death on the cross was done to save us from this fate. But we understand the offer of Grace to be a free offer that must be accepted throughout a lifetime, not merely a single instant. Throughout a Grace-filled life, we are not “covered over” with Grace, but thoroughly changed and remade. We have to constantly choose to cooperate with Grace in that happening. It’s not over until it’s over. We do have an assurance of salvation, but it isn’t a one-time ticket. It’s a lifetime relationship.
Click to expand...
This!👍
 
Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. And Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance (of salvation). Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

Also, Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it, and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
 
freiabereinsam said:
I think it’s time for a change of course here–this is a question about salvation. I have occasionally heard “once saved, always saved” (mostly, for some reason, from Protestants, but I don’t know if that is of any relevance). Do you consider this doctrine legitimate? Why or why not?
Click to expand...
If one considers that the “once saved” can only definitively occur at the moment of death, then it’s true. But to preach that a man can be assured of salvation by simply accepting Christ as his savior once during his life is a doctrine of demons.
 
I’m glad this was posted. This is a subject I’ve been thinking a lot about lately. I see that whole notion as arrogant and self-righteous. :rolleyes: Coming from that background and have family who are almost all protestant, I see it in their actions and their lives. I’m not saying I’m perfect believe me, but this idea leaves them feeling justified no matter what they do or don’t do. One of the reasons I never connected with their beliefs/ faith. One of these days, and I think its coming soon I will discuss it with them - lovingly and charitably of course.

If I follow that logic, then as long as I have been baptised and accept in my heart that Jesus is my Lord and Savior, then all is forgiven forever regardless of what I do after that and I will still go to heaven no matter what I do. Right!? The Apostle’s Creed - I’m curious how they explain what Jesus will do when he comes again. He’s going to judge the living and the dead, which most denominations of protestantism agree will happen. Why would you need to be judged if you’re already fit for heaven? It didn’t say judge the living unsaved and the dead unsaved. And if you are dead and weren’t saved then you’re already in hell, right!? Why would the dead be judged?

Can someone help me understand OSAS if I have it wrong? I’m not sure I completely understand it or at least it doesn’t make sense to me. My understanding, again, comes from the protestant denomination I attended with my family. Maybe there are some protestant brothers and sisters or converts out there that could share and clarify?
 
Convert2013 said:
I’m glad this was posted. This is a subject I’ve been thinking a lot about lately. I see that whole notion as arrogant and self-righteous.
Click to expand...
It can turn into that, but it often doesn’t. There are some wonderfully faithful Christians out there who subscribe to OSAS. Just goes to show you that there is more to discipleship than theology! In my experience most OSAS folk don’t follow it to the ugly logical conclusion you noted here. They just quit thinking about it before it gets that far. Sometimes the ugly outcome can creep up on them though.

But on the other hand, you’ll almost never see a OSAS protestant afflicted with scrupulosity. That’s almost a peculiarly catholic problem. As I said, theology isn’t destiny, but getting it right does HELP! It’s easier for one’s relationship to Christ to flourish if we understand the nature of that relationship correctly, but it’s not a guarantee.
 
Convert2013 said:
I’m glad this was posted. This is a subject I’ve been thinking a lot about lately. I see that whole notion as arrogant and self-righteous. :rolleyes: Coming from that background and have family who are almost all protestant, I see it in their actions and their lives. I’m not saying I’m perfect believe me, but this idea leaves them feeling justified no matter what they do or don’t do. One of the reasons I never connected with their beliefs/ faith. One of these days, and I think its coming soon I will discuss it with them - lovingly and charitably of course.

If I follow that logic, then as long as I have been baptised and accept in my heart that Jesus is my Lord and Savior, then all is forgiven forever regardless of what I do after that and I will still go to heaven no matter what I do. Right!? The Apostle’s Creed - I’m curious how they explain what Jesus will do when he comes again. He’s going to judge the living and the dead, which most denominations of protestantism agree will happen. Why would you need to be judged if you’re already fit for heaven? It didn’t say judge the living unsaved and the dead unsaved. And if you are dead and weren’t saved then you’re already in hell, right!? Why would the dead be judged?

Can someone help me understand OSAS if I have it wrong? I’m not sure I completely understand it or at least it doesn’t make sense to me. My understanding, again, comes from the protestant denomination I attended with my family. Maybe there are some protestant brothers and sisters or converts out there that could share and clarify?
Click to expand...
well cathlic theology has something simimlar, as in particular judgment which i’m having trouble understanding. after we die, some go to the presece of the lord or to hell or absence of god. but when christ comes he’s going to judge us, does that meanw e’re being judged twice? if anyone has an answer please let me know.
 
angell1 said:
well cathlic theology has something simimlar, as in particular judgment which i’m having trouble understanding. after we die, some go to the presece of the lord or to hell or absence of god. but when christ comes he’s going to judge us, does that meanw e’re being judged twice? if anyone has an answer please let me know.
Click to expand...
Time is part of creation. Heaven exists outside of both space AND time. That’s what all the “I am” stuff is all about.

Same reason that the body and blood of Christ can be present in so many billions of masses over the millennia. As creatures inside of time, we can’t really relate.
 
If humility is a virtue, if striving to know the extent of our sinfulness is desired in an effort to rid ourselves of sin, how then is assuming we are ‘all good’, ‘on the boat to Heaven’ not in opposition to reality?

Once saved, always saved? Only after death and a judgement that puts the soul into or on a path toward Heaven.

Before that point, it is in our best interest to not assume anything, yet be motivated for our potential and live accordingly in humility.

Much easier said than done.
 
manualman said:
This is an entirely protestant idea foreign to and contrary to catholic teaching.

That sort of protestant thinking see salvation as a legal status, rather than the outcome of a lifelong relationship with God. Here’s their thinking in a nutshell
  1. All humans have sinned.
  2. The punishment for sin is death (and hell eternally).
  3. Jesus came and accepted the death sentence that was due for sinners.
  4. Those who repent of their sins and ask Jesus into their hearts, at that specific moment, their status is changed from guilty sinner. Instead, since Jesus received the sentence they were due, they are fully pardoned and receive his status of righteousness instead.
  5. Their legal status of righteous is a “cover” provided by Christ, not the outcome of actual actions in their own lives. Therefore their salvation is assured since the “cover” of Christ’s righteousness is eternal.
Catholics should find this line of logic totally bizarre. It essentially accuses God of deluding Himself into thinking that believers are perfect and deserving of heaven. It’s just weird.
Click to expand...
Well, I guess that’s one way to formulate it. Another way would be:

By faith in Christ we’ve become adopted sons (and daughters) of Our Heavenly Father, and God’s not going to tear up the adoption papers and disown us because of sins committed anymore than a good earthly father would. Discipline, yes. Disown, no. That perfect love elicits a loving response from our hearts that drives us to “straighten our paths”.

I hope that helps…🙂
 
“Once saved, always saved” is a Calvinist doctrine. It is mostly held by Baptists.

It is not if I consider it legitimate, it is whether the Church considers it true or not. The Church believes you can loose your salvation. So, the Church would consider this doctrine heretical.
 
This is tough question,but i willthrow in my2 cents,i look at jesus’ sacrafice as the highest possible sacrafice,it was god sacraficing god to god! You can’t beat that. This leads me to the next problem. Man is saved by grace,i.e.,grace= a free gift from god,we don’t earn it,or merit it in any way now see romans 5,vse 18," to sum up then just as a single offense brought condemnation to all men a single righteous act brought all men acquital and life…", . Now it doesn’t say some men,or many men,but ___all__the new american bible,st joseph edition,imprimatur patrick cardinal o’boyle…sounds like universal salvation!! Now wld anyone like to tell me the difference twixt redemption and salvation…william bradl.
 
Alizarin said:
Well, I guess that’s one way to formulate it. Another way would be:

By faith in Christ we’ve become adopted sons (and daughters) of Our Heavenly Father, and God’s not going to tear up the adoption papers and disown us because of sins committed anymore than a good earthly father would. Discipline, yes. Disown, no. That perfect love elicits a loving response from our hearts that drives us to “straighten our paths”.

I hope that helps…🙂
Click to expand...
A much softer explanation, to be sure. But underneath the veneer problems remain with the logic. It suggests that after the particular moment when one “accepts Christ” (to use the lingo), one no longer has free will to accept or reject the Grace of God. I see nothing like that in Scripture or Tradition. I see plenty of assurances that external forces cannot rip the Gift of Salvation from our hands. I see no assurance whatsoever that we cannot choose to throw it away. On the contrary, we have repeated instances of Scripture admonishing us to stay faithful to the end. None of those reminders would be necessary if initial conversion to faith is all that is required for eternal assurance.

I’ll grant you that yours is a much nicer sounding approach. It just fails to address the problem: how can heaven be heaven if it is populated by backslidden reprobates who once had a conversion experience? How can there be no tears there if there present those who repudiate Grace and the gift of salvation? An adoptive Father surely loves his wayward children. But He can’t simply allow them to steal from, abuse and generally cause harm to the other children of the house on an indefinite basis.
 
manualman said:
An adoptive Father surely loves his wayward children. But He can’t simply allow them to steal from, abuse and generally cause harm to the other children of the house on an indefinite basis.
Click to expand...
Right. So he disciplines the troublemaker. But he doesn’t tear up the adoption papers.

With that said, could our metaphorical kid, by his own free will run away to the other side of the world and never come back? Protestants on the Arminian side of the spectrum, like Wesley, would say yes. Calvinists would say no.

Here’s a question for you as a Catholic: is there such a thing as once Catholic, always Catholic?
 
TO MANUALMAN: YOUR POST SUGGESTS THAT THE FREE GIFT [GRACE] REQUIRES SOMETHING FROM MAN, HOW IS IT FREE IF SOMETHING IS REQUIRED TO MAKE IT EFFECTIVE? i SEE A FREE GIFT AS HAVING NO STRINGS ATTACHED. PERHAPS THE INFUSION OF GRACE CHANGES THE HORRIBLE NATURE OF MAN ONCE THE THE GRACE IS THRUST UPON MAN HIS NATURE IS ELEVATED.JOHN 5 VSE 21"…SO THE SON GRANTS LIFE TO THOSE WHOM HE WISHES".IT IS NOT WE WHO CHOOSE THE LORD,BUT THE LORD WH CHOOSES US SO YOU SEE HEAVEN WILL NOT BE POPULATED WITH BACKSLIDERS? NO ONE WILL REPUDIATE SALVATION,AND NO OTHER HARM WILL FREELY BE CAST UPON OTHERS .NOW HOW ABOUT MY QUESTION ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE TWIXT REDEMPTION AND SALVATION,WILLIAM BRADL
 
bben15 said:
“Once saved, always saved” is a Calvinist doctrine. It is mostly held by Baptists.

It is not if I consider it legitimate, it is whether the Church considers it true or not. The Church believes you can loose your salvation. So, the Church would consider this doctrine heretical.
Click to expand...
Yes OSAS is a dogma that came from Calvin, it forms the P in TULIP as Perseverance of the Saints.

This is a doctrine held by Baptists but also Presbyterians and the Reformed churches.
 
Alizarin said:
Right. So he disciplines the troublemaker. But he doesn’t tear up the adoption papers.
Click to expand...
God doesn’t tear up the adoption papers, but the mortal sinner petitions for and receives emancipation. Remember the story of the prodigal son - “My son was dead, and is alive again.” Unfortunately, some sons never come back to life.
 
You know. I hate to put it so bluntly, but an obedient Catholic isn’t really interested in hearing anyone’s opinion on this issue. An obedient Catholic is interested in the official teaching of the Church. OSAS is not a teaching of the Church. The matter would seem to be closed.
 
wbradl said:
TO MANUALMAN: YOUR POST SUGGESTS THAT THE FREE GIFT [GRACE] REQUIRES SOMETHING FROM MAN, HOW IS IT FREE IF SOMETHING IS REQUIRED TO MAKE IT EFFECTIVE? i SEE A FREE GIFT AS HAVING NO STRINGS ATTACHED. PERHAPS THE INFUSION OF GRACE CHANGES THE HORRIBLE NATURE OF MAN ONCE THE THE GRACE IS THRUST UPON MAN HIS NATURE IS ELEVATED.JOHN 5 VSE 21"…SO THE SON GRANTS LIFE TO THOSE WHOM HE WISHES".IT IS NOT WE WHO CHOOSE THE LORD,BUT THE LORD WH CHOOSES US SO YOU SEE HEAVEN WILL NOT BE POPULATED WITH BACKSLIDERS? NO ONE WILL REPUDIATE SALVATION,AND NO OTHER HARM WILL FREELY BE CAST UPON OTHERS .NOW HOW ABOUT MY QUESTION ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE TWIXT REDEMPTION AND SALVATION,WILLIAM BRADL
Click to expand...
You are advertising yourself as Catholic, but this is a Protestant belief you are propagating.

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top