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Go enjoy the weekend… and pre-season football 
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eyesopening
Guest
Debating the issue is one thing, but I just don’t want any confusion as to what the official teaching of the church is, regardless of how anybody here feels about it.
The official stance of the Catholic Church is that the Calvinist doctrines of double predestination and OSAS are heretical beliefs.
We can discuss this, and I’m happy to do so, but it is folly for any non-Catholics here to think that they can convince Catholics to believe in these doctrines or that the Catholic Church will ever change its opinions of them. Please don’t try.
The official stance of the Catholic Church is that the Calvinist doctrines of double predestination and OSAS are heretical beliefs.
We can discuss this, and I’m happy to do so, but it is folly for any non-Catholics here to think that they can convince Catholics to believe in these doctrines or that the Catholic Church will ever change its opinions of them. Please don’t try.
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Zachary
Guest
Why the commandments? Why the need to forgive others or to be forgiven? Why bother with any morality at all? Why original sin? From Adam and Eve to Peter; sin.
And why the condemnation of any person? Blah, complete horse meat.
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Alizarin
Guest
I don’t think anyone was trying to…
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Alizarin
Guest
Protestants might respond with this:
Romans 7:5-6 (New Jerusalem Bible – Mother Angelica’s favored translation)
While we were still living by our natural inclinations, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were working in all parts of our bodies to make us live lives which were fruitful only for death. But now we are released from the Law, having died to what was binding us, and so we are in a new service, that of the spirit, and not in the old service of a written code.
In other words, don’t look anymore to the commandments as law. Live by the Spirit. The law was only a signpost pointing to Christ. Or, as Paul put it, a guardian until we came of age (Galatians 4)
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Gorgias
Guest
Aah, yes! This is the perfect extension to the analogy!
Here’s the problem with it, though: God doesn’t rip it from our hands and throw it away – we do. We take our puppy and neglect it, or leave the gate open, or treat it badly…
Exactly. God closes the gate, feeds the puppy and takes it for a walk, gives it a good brushing, and when we come back, embarrassed and contrite, He hands it back to us and says, “go and sin no more.”
Now, any human would eventually say, “ok, that’s enough – clearly, you’re not mature or caring or loving enough to have a pet. I’m taking this puppy away from you and giving it to someone who really wants it!” But that’s not what God does: He wants you to grow into becoming that loving, caring, responsible owner of His gift, so He keeps forgiving you and letting you work toward that perfection.
That’s about it! Note, though, that not all misuses of the gift are equal. It’s not just the extremes of “puppy in my arms” or “puppy running loose down the street” as end states; if you happen to have treated your puppy well, but died before you could feed it that day, you’re still ok. Dying with mortal sin on your soul is one thing, but dying with only venial sin is still a ticket to the Daisy Hill Puppy Farm in the sky…Best I can do is hope that I die on a day when the gift is still in my hands.
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Gorgias
Guest
From the perspective of salvation, they don’t, and that’s legitimate Catholic teaching! Well, let me put it another way: your actions on earth before baptism don’t matter; and your actions on earth before Reconciliation don’t matter… each time you are forgiven, any of your sins are completely wiped away! So, yes, if Hitler were forgiven as he lay dying, then it’s possible that he’s in heaven now.
But, your point is a good one. If we’re relying on God’s mercy to get us into heaven, is there a role for God’s justice? Some theologians suggest that, while all who are forgiven do get to heaven, nevertheless the experience of heaven differs, based on the way we lived our lives. In other words, our actions here on earth help prepare us for heaven: Mother Theresa’s reward in heaven – her experience of it – will be more profound than (insert name of generally-bad-yet-saved person here)… because she prepared for the reception of God’s love more profoundly here. It’s not that Mother Theresa’s cup will be full and Hitler’s (if he made it) will only have a few drops in it: in heaven, both their cups will be full to the brim… but Mother Theresa’s cup will have much greater capacity…! (Somehow, the notion of me running around heaven (God willing) with a little sippy-cup, and Mother Theresa with a Big Gulp just makes intuitive sense…!)
At least, that’s the conjecture…
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Alizarin
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Well, if we went by the analogy as I framed it earlier, it makes God look almost psychotic, right? So we’ll frame it your way instead, which makes God look like a caring father (which we agree He is). But it makes me (or any other sinner) look like a completely mentally unstable individual, tossing presents out of windows day after day
. If that’s the case, would a loving, merciful father hold his psychologically disturbed child fully accountable for their actions? A human father wouldn’t…
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Zachary
Guest
:whacky: except we were created in God’s image, and to suggest that the human race is entirely psychotic… :banghead:Well, if we went by the analogy as I framed it earlier, it makes God look almost psychotic, right? So we’ll frame it your way instead, which makes God look like a caring father (which we agree He is). But it makes me (or any other sinner) look like a completely mentally unstable individual, tossing presents out of windows day after day
AND, for those who are truly disturbed and not in control of their actions, that a different story (invincible ignorance…)
Im finding more and more that OSAS is simply a lie, fabrication and man-made to cover other failings. In Luke, Jesus says to be prepared. Why would that matter if you’re already saved? Clearly, He didn’t say “be prepared, unless you’re already saved, then do as you please, but every else, you better be prepared”
OSAS is more ignorantly invincible …
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eyesopening
Guest
I agree with all this.:whacky: except we were created in God’s image, and to suggest that the human race is entirely psychotic… :banghead:
AND, for those who are truly disturbed and not in control of their actions, that a different story (invincible ignorance…)
Im finding more and more that OSAS is simply a lie, fabrication and man-made to cover other failings. In Luke, Jesus says to be prepared. Why would that matter if you’re already saved? Clearly, He didn’t say “be prepared, unless you’re already saved, then do as you please, but every else, you better be prepared”
OSAS is more ignorantly invincible …
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Alizarin
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But our nature has been damaged by the Fall. And in your post you are doing this :banghead: Hardly a sane activity…
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wbradl
Guest
Once saved always saved,interesting concept. now if we believe as Acquinas did that God is unchanging,and exists outside of time,We have a problem! We are saved by grace [free gift] of GOD. IF GOD IS UNCHANGING,THEN JOHN 5 VSE 21 " THE SON GRANTS LIFE TO THOSE WHOM HE WISHES" THE UNCHANGING SON HAS ALREADY SAVED THOSE FROM THEIR BEGINNING,AND BEING UNCHANGEABLE IN HIS DEVINE NATURE SOME WERE SAVED BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN BORN AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE SO! LO ANOTHER MYSTERY W BRADL,PS THE CAPITALS ARE NOT SHOUTING,I’M NOT A PROFICIENT TYPIST!!!
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Zachary
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Exactly, we are all sinners. No one’s perfect, therefore, no one would qualify for OSAS (except the Blessed Virgin, of course.) There’s always 100% chance of sin and high likelihood of mortal sin. Therefore, soul is perpetually at risk (and, as such, the need for the sacraments.)But our nature has been damaged by the Fall. And in your post you are doing this :banghead: Hardly a sane activity…
Jesus redeemed the human race on the Cross, but we have free will and can freely lose our salvation. Maybe OSAS should be Once Redeemed, Always Redeemed. But the saving/salvation comes when you die.
Once you die, maybe you qualify for Once Purified, Always Purified?
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Doxiemom
Guest
OSAS?
Anyone can lose that assurace that when they die they will go to heaven. It isn’t easy to do , like just missing church once and then die. But if you work hard enough at it, you will accomplish this feat.
You cannot make a lifetime of mockery of God and think He is going to let you in just because you say a prayer and call yourself a Christian. Oh, just because you believe in Jesus isn’t enough. As many have stated, Satan believes in Jesus; i’d go one step further-the angel knows Him personally and we can be positive he isn’t going to spend eternity in heaven.
It is said that it is by faith alone that ye are saved. This is Truth. but define faith first. What is faith.?
Faith, the desire to be saved, was a subject brought before Him. Was it following the Law that did it??(legalism)Being rightous?(nope we are as filthy rags) What is it Jesus?
believe unto to Me and you shall have eternal life
Love God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strenght
Love your nieghbor as you love yourself
Confess that “Jesus is Lord”
be born again
It is that change that takes place within you that will not allow yourself to ever walk away from Him so certainly that you will not accept His Forgivenessthat is offered time and time again that you lose your salvation. maybe once you were saved, but you walked yourself straight into hell.
OSAS is a difficult subject to pin down, really because of the many nuances. And we must accept that God has so much mercy for us. But we also must accept that there is a hell and people do go in there.
Anyone can lose that assurace that when they die they will go to heaven. It isn’t easy to do , like just missing church once and then die. But if you work hard enough at it, you will accomplish this feat.
You cannot make a lifetime of mockery of God and think He is going to let you in just because you say a prayer and call yourself a Christian. Oh, just because you believe in Jesus isn’t enough. As many have stated, Satan believes in Jesus; i’d go one step further-the angel knows Him personally and we can be positive he isn’t going to spend eternity in heaven.
It is said that it is by faith alone that ye are saved. This is Truth. but define faith first. What is faith.?
Faith, the desire to be saved, was a subject brought before Him. Was it following the Law that did it??(legalism)Being rightous?(nope we are as filthy rags) What is it Jesus?
believe unto to Me and you shall have eternal life
Love God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strenght
Love your nieghbor as you love yourself
Confess that “Jesus is Lord”
be born again
It is that change that takes place within you that will not allow yourself to ever walk away from Him so certainly that you will not accept His Forgivenessthat is offered time and time again that you lose your salvation. maybe once you were saved, but you walked yourself straight into hell.
OSAS is a difficult subject to pin down, really because of the many nuances. And we must accept that God has so much mercy for us. But we also must accept that there is a hell and people do go in there.
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wbradl
Guest
doxiemom…I DON’T THINK YOU CAN MAKE A MOCKERY OF GOD,HE IS THE ALMIGHTY AND CAN NOT BE BELITTLED. YOU STATE BY FAITH ALONE ARE YOU SAVED,YOU LEFT OUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING GRACE [ITS SALVATION VIA GRACE AND FAITH] NOW GRACE IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD,YOU CAN’T EARN IT,NOR DO YOU DESERVE IT,FREE GIFT!!!SALVATION THRU FAITH ALONE IS THE LUTHERAN IDEA,YOU CAN HAVE ALL THE FAITH IN THE WORLD,BUT IT IS POINTLESS UNLESS YOU HAVE GRACE.REMEMBER GOD IS UNCHANGING,IF HE GIVES YOU GRACE,YOU HAVE IT,AND GRACE IS THE SAVING ITEM . I SUSPECT THE OVERIDING RULE THAT ENCOMPASSES ALL OTHERS [IE CHARITY,HELPING OTHERS, ETC] IS SIMPLY PUT AS DO GOOD AND AVOID EVIL…WILLIAM BRADL
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Gorgias
Guest
No – although God exists outside time, we exist within it. Therefore, our actions happen within the constraints of time. From God’s perspective, we are saved or not; we have accepted his grace or not. But for us, it’s not something that happens eternally – for us, it happens in a particular time.
If your thought were accurate, it would mean that God could not act within time, since He is eternal. However, if that were the case, then the Incarnation could not have happened in time (it would have had to have happened eternally). This isn’t the case, though – Jesus was made incarnate at a particular point within time. So, your notion doesn’t really work – people aren’t saved from the beginning of eternity…
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wbradl
Guest
Hi georgias,good to hear from you… While god exists outside of time,he can still act in our time. Seems to me we have a mystery here,we become subject to two " gods’…one who is unchanging,and one who dips into our changing time, and changes with effects he executes in our lives he becomes subject to before and after… If god is changing is he still god? Is god greater or lesser with his changeability ? God sees the whole of our existance like a movie strip,begining,middle and end all at once,his actions are fixed in his eternity and in our rambling road thru life has its ups and downs .was jesus always the redeemer fixed in eternity even before there was a human reason [before the fall] for him to be as such. I ask these questions not to create doubt but to show the gap twixt god and man, and we can not know the infinite with our finite minds. Strange god the father is never seen,he’s a burning bush,a disembodied voice etc william bradl
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Doxiemom
Guest
It would be easier on the eyes without all caps, kind sir.
I agree, Grace is freely given.
You know that I know that nothing anyone does will not change the nature of God, literally turning Him into a “mockery”.
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Zachary
Guest
Free refused, returned or retired too. We’re a free race (human) and can freely put down our crosses thereby being free from God’s grace and at risk for eternal damnation. This is quite clear all over Scripture, unlike OSAS, which is a convenient, man-made theology. OSAS opens us up to unrepentance, clearly not a Christian virtue.
OSAS:
“God loves you, do whatever you want as long as you’re happy”
“if it feels good, do it”
“love the one you’re with”
“if no one gets hurt, it’s not wrong”
Leads to a whole lot of moral relativism and lazy theology.
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Alizarin
Guest
A more accurate way of putting it would be: * "a Calvinist teaching that asserts that once persons are truly ‘born of God’, or ‘regenerated’, nothing in heaven or earth “shall be able to separate (them) from the love of God”*
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