Once saved, Always saved?

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jediliz:
I don’t think this could always work…

For example:

James accepted Jesus at age 12, was baptised, etc. At age 17, he had stopped going to church except maybe 4 times a year…

Then at age 18, he decided to go to medical school.

He was required to learn how to perform abortions.

He does dozens of abortions in his career, only caring about the money he’s making, forgetting his heritage (accepting Jesus). He finally dies at the ripe old age of 83.

Would he be saved? I think he’d have to have a MAJOR stop in purgatory because abortion takes a human life and well, that violated the commandment “Thou Shall not Kill”.

So, I don’t think he’d still be “automatically” saved.

Unless on his death bed, he’s sorry for aborting the babies whose lives he took…

this is just an example of how it doesn’t work
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Abortion is a mortal sin which cuts one off from God. If one dies in a state of mortal sin it casts one into hell. Only if he was truly contrite on his deathbed would he have the chance to make his penance in purgatory.
 
and that was the point I am trying to make, RCCdefender.

My city had a Presbyterian Church ELDER who was performing abortions at the local abortion clinic for the last 8 or 9 years and then he suddenly quit or retired or something…the clinic was closed for like 6 weeks!

Do presbyterians believe in the once saved, always saved? Because since this Elder (he was only an elder for a short while - not sure how long) performed ABORTIONS, killing the gift of a child that GOD wanted to give to people…
 
Presbyterians believe in predestination. A portion of the donations made to churches in the Prebyterian General Assembly go to finance abortions. Many congregants don’t know this, and some pastors are oblivious to it as well, as Marcus Grodi can tell you.
 
There’s no connection whatever between belief in predestination and the performing of abortions. I’d be willing to bet a moderate sum that the elder in question did not believe in predestination. Liberal Presbyterians generally don’t. And conservative Presbyterians (who are more likely to have traditional views on predestinatio) oppose abortion (indeed, Paul Hill who shot the abortion doctor was an ultra-conservative Presbyterian minister).

Edwin
 
Prespbyterians typically adhere to all if not 3 or more of TULIP. Most baptists are only 3 point TULIPs.

For someone like the docter who had a ‘saving’ experience as a child and then lived the rest of his life as a heathen, I would have to question whether his conversion was true or not.
The Bible says that by our fruits we will be made known. If I never produce any fruit, then how can I be assured of my salvation, even if I do believe in OSAS. OSAS believes that when you have a true conversion that christ saves you once and for all at that moment. But if your conversion is true, your life will be changed. Yes, we are humans and yes we screw up, but you will be living a life that overall follows God’s will for you.
Of course, no one has the ability or the right to judge whether someone is or isn’t destined for heaven (or hell). Only God truly knows the heart. But we can infer a person’s spiritual condition from their behaviors and actions.
 
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Contarini:
There’s no connection whatever between belief in predestination and the performing of abortions. I’d be willing to bet a moderate sum that the elder in question did not believe in predestination. Liberal Presbyterians generally don’t. And conservative Presbyterians (who are more likely to have traditional views on predestinatio) oppose abortion (indeed, Paul Hill who shot the abortion doctor was an ultra-conservative Presbyterian minister).

Edwin
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I’m not saying that predestination and a pro-abortion agenda go hand in hand. But I can see how a presbyterian who believed his salvation was assured would have no reason to think his abortion clinic would risk his ultimately being saved.

OSAS, but only if you don’t backslide is self refuting, in my opinion.
 
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mellysue:
Prespbyterians typically adhere to all if not 3 or more of TULIP. Most baptists are only 3 point TULIPs.

For someone like the docter who had a ‘saving’ experience as a child and then lived the rest of his life as a heathen, I would have to question whether his conversion was true or not.
The Bible says that by our fruits we will be made known. If I never produce any fruit, then how can I be assured of my salvation, even if I do believe in OSAS. OSAS believes that when you have a true conversion that christ saves you once and for all at that moment. But if your conversion is true, your life will be changed. Yes, we are humans and yes we screw up, but you will be living a life that overall follows God’s will for you.
Of course, no one has the ability or the right to judge whether someone is or isn’t destined for heaven (or hell). Only God truly knows the heart. But we can infer a person’s spiritual condition from their behaviors and actions.
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And that’s exactly what traditional Calvinism teaches.

You appear to know more conservative Presbyterians than I do. I assure you that most members of PCUSA (the mainline Presbyterian denomination) hold to TULIP only in a very attenuated sense.

Even one quite conservative Presbyterian theologian I knew in grad school would expound traditional Calvinism (including Limited Atonement) and then say that possibly everyone will be saved (because everyone is elect). This is a reasonable position, it seems to me. But it’s hardly traditional Calvinism. And as I said this was a conservative (though a moderate one). Lots of PCUSA folks have completely watered down their traditional teaching.

Edwin
 
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RCCDefender:
I’m not saying that predestination and a pro-abortion agenda go hand in hand. But I can see how a presbyterian who believed his salvation was assured would have no reason to think his abortion clinic would risk his ultimately being saved.

OSAS, but only if you don’t backslide is self refuting, in my opinion.
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This shows that you don’t understand the Reformed position. The elect are not just elected to go to heaven. The entire process is the result of God’s sovereign grace–and that includes leading a life of holiness. So if you aren’t striving to lead a life of holiness, God is not at work in your life and you have reason to fear that you may not be elect.

You may think this is rather back-to-front and strange. I don’t hold to it myself. But it’s hardly self-refuting.

Edwin
 
I think that’s why they are known as split P’s in some circles! 😃
 
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Contarini:
This shows that you don’t understand the Reformed position. The elect are not just elected to go to heaven. The entire process is the result of God’s sovereign grace–and that includes leading a life of holiness. So if you aren’t striving to lead a life of holiness, God is not at work in your life and you have reason to fear that you may not be elect.

You may think this is rather back-to-front and strange. I don’t hold to it myself. But it’s hardly self-refuting.

Edwin
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Maybe you are right, I don’t understand, because this seems to try to twist the Catholic belief that we “must work out [our] savation with fear and trembling” into something that looks, well, not-so-Catholic.
 
Well, I know in my particular area TULIP is catchin on like wild-fire. Not only are presbyters going back to the reform roots, but many baptists are jumping on board as well. In fact, I had only heard of TULIP for the first time a couple of years ago at a Baptist bible study when a friend starting teaching it as fact and ruffled a few feathers. Since then he’s left that church and goes to a reformed one. They are like little calvinites. They not only believe in TULIP in full, but are very outspoken about it.
 
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RCCDefender:
Presbyterians believe in predestination. A portion of the donations made to churches in the Prebyterian General Assembly go to finance abortions. Many congregants don’t know this, and some pastors are oblivious to it as well, as Marcus Grodi can tell you.
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:eek: How can they not know? :eek: What kind of Christian church finances abortions? Is it under the guise of Planned Parenthood?
 
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RCCDefender:
Presbyterians believe in predestination. A portion of the donations made to churches in the Prebyterian General Assembly go to finance abortions. Many congregants don’t know this, and some pastors are oblivious to it as well, as Marcus Grodi can tell you.
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PCA or PCUSA?
 
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Malachi4U:
By the way, not all Protestants believe in Faith Alone. Many do, but not all.
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I am one of those who do not believe in the Faith Alone theory.

Here is a question that I think that is important.

Do we produce faith on our own or does God give it to us as a gift?

🙂 Melissa
 
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