once saved always saved?

[StMarkEofE]

John Paul III:

Protestants-

For argument sake lets say you are right, if ask Jesus into your life, you are saved. When someone ask you if you died right now would you go to Heaven? You would say yes because you asked Jesus into your heart and asked him to forgive your sins. Once saved always saved is your doctrine.

What happens if you are trully sorry for your sins, but you do not repent? You personally ask Jesus to forgive you, but you continue your sinful ways, what happens when you die?

I think most sola scriptura Christians will admit that even though they are saved you still must live a Christlike life as well. Otherwise, what is need for the Evangelical and Pentecostal churches? If you are saved just stay home and be a good person to your neighbor and yourself? Why read the bible? No, Im sure that most saved Christians will say that being saved isnt all there is to being saved.

 

[Scotchamoe]

Heya Quatsch,

First of all…ditto. I truly appreciate the civil discourse that we’re having as well and I do agree that we have a lot of common ground between us and I think that Deb1 is in agreement as well (I saw her reply to your note). I appreciate it more than you can fathom. Now, back to our discussion…

If you read through the discourse in John 15 that the article mentions, it is clear Jesus is talking to those who are in his love and is warning them to remain in his love.

What is the one recurring theme here? Staying, continuing, remaining. This is the point I was hoping we’d finally get to.

Remaining in Christ’s love is not a one-time thing, it is a process which takes our entire life to complete.

This solidifies my point about OSAS. It’s not a one-time thing, it is a process, that’s the maturing part. Salvation is final once one accepts God’s sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ and continues in, or commits to, Him.

Once again, if you profess to be a Christian, do it for a little while and then decide not to, fall away, whatever… were you to begin with? Was your faith in Jesus Christ true or a “phase” you were going through? Did you truly accept the sacrifice that God gave for all for the forgiveness of sin past, present and future? Or did you just buy into the wordly vision of Jesus is one way to heaven?

In John 3:16(b), Jesus, himself, says to Nicodemus, “…whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” In the ancient Greek the word we have translated into believes is “pisteuo” which means “commit to; put into trust with”. It’s full commitment that God requires, through Christ, not a partial act of doing some good every now and then.

I don’t doubt that you & I are in agreement here (at least that’s what my spirit is telling me). The fundamental definition of OSAS is once you are saved, you don’t go back to your former self… “Therefore if (key word) anyone is in Christ (another key phrase here - you can’t be partially in Christ and partially not), he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” 2 Cor 5:17

This is something that is not a Catholic or Protestant thing. It’s a God thing. It all boils down to you either are or your not. There is no in-between. Our risen Lord said, concerning those that are in word only, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles ?’ And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.” (Matthew 7:21-23)

And our risen Lord will say, “I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.” (Rev 3:15-16)

I guess my final thought for this thread is this, people can claim that they’re saved, that doesn’t mean they are. But at the same time, Paul did not say, “Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be considered my brother and after they have shown to be loyal they shall receive their salvation.” He said, "“WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” (Romans 10:13) But remember, Christ also said, “Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.” (Luke 14:27)

Waiting to hear back from you.

In Christ,
Scotchamoe

 

[smelton]

As a protestant I would say that it is simply a matter of semantics. Once saved, always saved. Loss of salvation. We are not the ones to define whether someone is saved or someone was saved and now is lost. That’s God’s department, thank goodness. Do I believe that my salvation fluctuates with my sinfulness, no. Read Romans 7 and find out the stuggles that Paul had with sin. Salvation is not something you earn or loose, it is a gift freely given. Acceptance of that gift brings salvation. Rejection of that gift brings condemnation. I really believe its that simple.

 

[Quatsch]

Scotchamoe:

What is the one recurring theme here? Staying, continuing, remaining. This is the point I was hoping we’d finally get to.

Salvation is final once one accepts God’s sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ and continues in, or commits to, Him.

Amen.

Scotchamoe:

Once again, if you profess to be a Christian, do it for a little while and then decide not to, fall away, whatever… were you to begin with? Was your faith in Jesus Christ true or a “phase” you were going through? Did you truly accept the sacrifice that God gave for all for the forgiveness of sin past, present and future? Or did you just buy into the wordly vision of Jesus is one way to heaven?

Since we don’t know the future, we have to have the conviction that our faith is true and not just a “phase.” Someone who knows what is said in the gospel and professes to accept it knows whether he accepts it or not. The “were they saved to begin with” game is fruitless.

Scotchamoe:

In John 3:16(b), Jesus, himself, says to Nicodemus, “…whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” In the ancient Greek the word we have translated into believes is “pisteuo” which means “commit to; put into trust with”. It’s full commitment that God requires, through Christ, not a partial act of doing some good every now and then.

Amen.

Scotchamoe:

I don’t doubt that you & I are in agreement here (at least that’s what my spirit is telling me). The fundamental definition of OSAS is once you are saved, you don’t go back to your former self… “Therefore if (key word) anyone is in Christ (another key phrase here - you can’t be partially in Christ and partially not), he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” 2 Cor 5:17

Your definition of OSAS is different than what I believed OSAS to be. Granted, I know that there are always radical positions of everything and those can be dangerous.

1 Jn 3:2-3 (NIV)
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

We cannot be fully in Christ until we lose the propensity to sin, and this will not happen until we are in heaven and see Him as He is. If we are fully in Christ we can not sin, yet we continue sinning against God. Thanks to Christ we are reconciled to God despite our sin, but our mere nature, as it is now, is unlike Christ’s in that we are still able to sin whereas he could not. Of course Christ could not sin because it would be against His own nature and God cannot contradict Himself.

Scotchamoe:

This is something that is not a Catholic or Protestant thing. It’s a God thing. It all boils down to you either are or your not. There is no in-between. Our risen Lord said, concerning those that are in word only, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles ?’ And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.” (Matthew 7:21-23)

And our risen Lord will say, “I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.” (Rev 3:15-16)

Amen. There is no in-between, I agree with that. One is either in Christ or one is not. My only disagreement is whether we can, of our own free will, sever that relationship.

Scotchamoe:

I guess my final thought for this thread is this, people can claim that they’re saved, that doesn’t mean they are. But at the same time, Paul did not say, “Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be considered my brother and after they have shown to be loyal they shall receive their salvation.” He said, "“WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” (Romans 10:13) But remember, Christ also said, “Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.” (Luke 14:27)

Waiting to hear back from you.

In Christ,
Scotchamoe

Amen. It is important to not only call on the Lord but also to carry our own cross. The Bible’s teachings are definitely both/and, not either/or.

I feel that our hearts are in the same place…whether we are able to convey that semantically or not is a different story

Blessings,

Q

 

[Scotchamoe]

My only disagreement is whether we can, of our own free will, sever that relationship.

Am I reading this correctly? Are you wondering whether we can sever our relationship with God or not?

 

[Quatsch]

Scotchamoe:

Am I reading this correctly? Are you wondering whether we can sever our relationship with God or not?

Yep, you’re reading it correctly. A relationship works both ways. God’s love for us will never stop, and even when we stop being faithful to Jesus he remains faithful to us. However we, by rejecting Him, reject His grace and our salvation. This is a choice we have of our free will, but as long as we keep our hearts open to Him the Holy Spirit will guide us towards Christ and we will remain in his love.

-Q

 

[Scotchamoe]

OK… I see what you’re saying now. I did read it wrong. I thought you were asking (because you weren’t aware) if one could fall away from God and His salvation through Jesus Christ. You were making a statement…I’m with you.

I was putting the wrong emphAsis on the wrong syllAble.

We agree.

Scotchamoe

 

[CatholicCorno]

SolaChristo: How would you respond to the last two posts, esp. 106?

I’m not trying to be a jerk or anything, I’m honestly curious how you would answer this. Thanks!

 

[exoflare]

Quatsch:

Amen.Since we don’t know the future, we have to have the conviction that our faith is true and not just a “phase.” Someone who knows what is said in the gospel and professes to accept it knows whether he accepts it or not. The “were they saved to begin with” game is fruitless.

Exactly. No one can ever use that cop-out until they see another person has already fallen back into evil ways. Then I wonder what is the point of defining anybody as “saved” to begin with, as you never know which people you’ll have to use that excuse (“he was never saved to begin with”) in talking about later. By referring to anybody here on earth as “saved”, then, you always run the risk of contradicting yourself later on.

 

[Quatsch]

Scotchamoe:

OK… I see what you’re saying now. I did read it wrong. I thought you were asking (because you weren’t aware) if one could fall away from God and His salvation through Jesus Christ. You were making a statement…I’m with you.

I was putting the wrong emphAsis on the wrong syllAble.

We agree.

Scotchamoe

Sounds good to me brother.

-Q

 

[Scotchamoe]

BACK!

 

[Archbishop]

I will throw this out for consideration in the discussion of OSAS. What really happens at the moment of salvation or initial conversion? A person without Christ is dead in their trespasses and sins. The soul is in bondage to the evil one. When the Holy Spirit comes in convicting power, the soul is set free in the process of regeneration. When the soul is regenerated and made alive unto God, the person comes to God in repentance and faith.

So suppose someone gets “saved.” Now suppose at some point in time, say 10 years down the road, the “saved” person says, “I want nothing more to do with Jesus. It’s all hogwash! I am going to live my life my way from now on.” Then the person goes on to commit all sorts of grievious sins and dies not in a state of grace.

Question - Did the soul that was once regenerated by the Holy Spirit die again at some point in time when the person rejected Christ? In other words, does the Holy Spirit come back and “unregenerate” the person?

Or, was the person ever really and truly converted in the first place? This is a question that only our Lord can answer, but, it would seem to me that this is the very type of individual that the writer of Hebrews is talking about - a person who has been enlightened and tasted of heavenly things but then fell away. Notice that there is no mention by the writer of Hebrews of conversion, regeneration, justification, redemption, or any other term that would imply salvation. He only speaks of enlightenment and tasting.

As a former Baptist and Reformed Presbyterian, I sat under and preached OSAS for many, many years. But years of ministry experience and seeing people in action have shown just the opposite at least in this life.

There is an old gospel hymn that says, “I am satisfied Jesus, He has done so much for me…But the question comes to me, as I think of Calvary, Is the Master satisfied with me?”

As a believer I can never rest upon my laurels or cling to the fact that I answered an altar call on Fathers’ Day 1959 as the assurance of my salvation or that I will forever be saved. I have to rest upon the fact of Christ’s atoning work on Calvary on my behalf and his work alone. Then I have to see if I am appropriating that work in my daily life and am showing forth fruits in my faith and works. If there are no fruits and works, I had better be taking a close look at myself and start heading back to the cross for cleansing!

Abp