Once Saved

[Sugar_Ray]

A verse in Revelation seems to me to be a powerful argument against the idea that we are saved once and for always.
Rev 12:17 - “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus”
Wouldn’t those who believe in once saved always saved consider “those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus” to be saved?
But why would the devil wage war on those already destined for heaven. Wouldn’t that be a waste of time when he could be pursuing those not saved.
I wondered what you all thought of this.
Just looking for opinions.
Thanks

 

[St.Giocef]

It depends Who you think the Woman represents. F you say she’s the Church, then Her offsprings who are destined to Heaven must be those who labor in accordance with God’s cathechisms and traditions and teachings. This is bad news for the Devil because it is a hindrance to his evil plans. So he’s got to wage every means to destroy this trend. F you say she’s Jesus’ mother, which religion adapts Mary as its Mother? I know one- Catholicism. And look at how the Dragons of this time make war against Her offsprings! They delight and feast upon those fallen offsprings caused by their schemes-sowing doubt,division,despair and confusion.

 

[john654]

Hi Sugar Ray,

But why would the devil wage war on those already destined for heaven. Wouldn’t that be a waste of time when he could be pursuing those not saved.

I like that. What would be the point? The Devil knows the scriptures so he knows, acording to protesting Christians and believers, that they can’t loose their salvation. I like what you posted, I’m going to remember the argument. Thanks!

Obedience,
John

 

[DavidFilmer]

St.Giocef:

It depends Who you think the Woman represents.

I’m unclear on why this matters in regards to the Sugar Ray’s post. Suppose one thinks the “woman” is a hotel concierge in France? Or an Olympic ice skater? What difference would this make (regarding Sugar Ray’s point), as long as her offspring “obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus?”

 

[Reepicheep]

Sugar Ray:

A verse in Revelation seems to me to be a powerful argument against the idea that we are saved once and for always.
Rev 12:17 - “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus”
Wouldn’t those who believe in once saved always saved consider “those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus” to be saved?
But why would the devil wage war on those already destined for heaven. Wouldn’t that be a waste of time when he could be pursuing those not saved.
I wondered what you all thought of this.
Just looking for opinions.
Thanks

While I don’t believe in “once saved always saved”, I can think of something an OSAS believer might say to this question.

A) The Devil wants to prevent the Saved from saving others. Therefore he wants to hurt and weaken the Saved as much as possible.
B) The Devil hates everyone…but he hates the Saved more, because we love and serve God. So he wants to hurt us out of malice. Even though he can’t endanger our salvation, he still wants to cause us whatever pain he can.
C) By stirring up hatred for us among others, he can get* them* to sin more, and so, perhaps, capture more souls that might have turned to God.

…Please note that I’m suggesting what an OSAS believer might say. I’m an orthodox Catholic myself, so don’t subscribe to that belief.

 

[dal11]

18 For, talking empty bombast, they seduce with licentious desires of the flesh those who have barely escaped 10 from people who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, though they themselves are slaves of corruption, for a person is a slave of whatever overcomes him. 20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down 11 to them. THIS IS 2 PETER CHAPTER 2. This to me says more against once saved always saved. Here a person escaped sin through knoledge of our lord Jesus Christ, yet fell again.

 

[puzzleannie]

how about Jesus’ warning about the swept and garnished house, the man who was delivered from a demon, and because he did not turn his soul to good, 7 worse demons came and inhabited the empty place.

 

[StCsDavid]

If I were a OSAS believer (which I’m not for a multitude of scripturally based reasons) I might offer this line of argument.

The Devil has already proven not to be a very rational creature as he allowed his self-centered emotions to consume him to the point that he rejected the glory of God. So while it wouldn’t make sense to us that he wage war on those already saved, it may seem like a very good idea to him. He’s already engaged in a desperate battle that he is destined to lose. He may want to inflict pain just for the sake of inflicting pain.

Yes, it’s a subjective argument, but I haven’t experienced a lot of objective dialogue from the OSAS community when you start pointing out the reasons that you don’t buy in to their interpretation of scripture.