One Church guided by Christ or many churches guided by Christ?

[joe370]

I am often told that the catholic church was not the only church established by Jesus Christ and therefore was not the only church that existed from the days of Pentecost, leading up to the days of the great 11th century east - west schism, meaning that Jesus must have been the founder of not just one church, but rather many self governing churches, something that could not have been readily witnessed until the 16th century protestant reformation, when Christians, belonging to the one catholic church began to break away from the one catholic church, (for various reasons) - meaning that these break away movements that eventually took on the life of a self governing church(es) were not established by Christ, on Pentecost.

In other words:

Self governing independent churches, appointed by Jesus Christ via His apostles, from the very inception of Christianity that spanned the centuries leading up to the days of the east - west schism, that would not have considered themselves part of the one self governing independent catholic church.

By pooling our resources, perhaps, the multitude here at CAF (both catholic and non-catholic) - can reach a consensus as to the exact number of churches that had no affiliation, at any time, with the one catholic church (in other words they were always self governing non-catholic churches since the days of Pentecost) - and yet existed alongside the one catholic church, again, as a separate entity, since the days of Pentecost, leading up to the eventual great 11th century east - west schism?

And of course any and all (if any) - new eastern/orthodox churches that cropped up after the great east - west schism, leading up to the protestant reformation?

Thanks in advance friends…

 

[Nicea325]

I am often told that the catholic church was not the only church established by Jesus Christ and therefore was not the only church that existed from the days of Pentecost, leading up to the days of the great 11th century east - west schism, meaning that Jesus must have been the founder of not just one church, but rather many self governing churches, something that could not have been readily witnessed until the 16th century protestant reformation, when Christians, belonging to the one catholic church began to break away from the one catholic church, (for various reasons) - meaning that these break away movements that eventually took on the life of a self governing church(es) were not established by Christ, on Pentecost.

In other words:

Self governing independent churches, appointed by Jesus Christ via His apostles, from the very inception of Christianity that spanned the centuries leading up to the days of the east - west schism, that would not have considered themselves part of the one self governing independent catholic church.

By pooling our resources, perhaps, the multitude here at CAF (both catholic and non-catholic) - can reach a consensus as to the exact number of churches that had no affiliation, at any time, with the one catholic church (in other words they were always self governing non-catholic churches since the days of Pentecost) - and yet existed alongside the one catholic church, again, as a separate entity, since the days of Pentecost, leading up to the eventual great 11th century east - west schism?

And of course any and all (if any) - new eastern/orthodox churches that cropped up after the great east - west schism, leading up to the protestant reformation?

Thanks in advance friends…

What I notice is many people tend to mix secularism with their faith. Is God ONE or divided? Why on earth would Jesus establish many churches and each is free to do as they please? Did not Jesus pray that they all be one? My question to those who oppose one church founded by Christ:

What does “one” mean to you?

 

[joe370]

What I notice is many people tend to mix secularism with their faith. Is God ONE or divided? Why on earth would Jesus establish many churches and each is free to do as they please? Did not Jesus pray that they all be one? My question to those who oppose one church founded by Christ:

What does “one” mean to you?

I agree. How can all Christians be one if all Christians do not belong to the one visible earthly Mystical Body, the Church, founded by Jesus?

Perhaps (they believe) - in the sense that all Christians, regardless of denomination, belong to the invisible earthly mystical Body of Christ, viewing Christ alone, (as opposed to Christ working sacramentally through His very visible earthly Church, of which He is the Head and Savior) - as the matrix by which all Christians remain one and unite. How one goes about belonging to an invisible earthy church, I have no idea, and of course the idea of an invisible church, in no way can be supported by scripture alone, and makes me wonder what all those very visible protestant churches are doing when their pastors and ministers visibly preach and teach from the pulpit.

 

[Nicea325]

I agree. How can all Christians be one if all Christians do not belong to the one visible earthly Mystical Body, the Church, founded by Jesus?

Perhaps (they believe) - in the sense that all Christians, regardless of denomination, belong to the invisible earthly mystical Body of Christ, viewing Christ alone, (as opposed to Christ working sacramentally through His very visible earthly Church, of which He is the Head and Savior) - as the matrix by which all Christians remain one and unite. How one goes about belonging to an invisible earthy church, I have no idea, and of course the idea of an invisible church, in no way can be supported by scripture alone, and makes me wonder what all those very visible protestant churches are doing when their pastors and ministers visibly preach and teach from the pulpit.

Unfortunately the whole “invisilbe” church and does not “matter what denomination” one attends is a relatively new belief NO WHERE taguht by Jesus,the 12 or the early church.

 

[JonNC]

I am often told that the catholic church was not the only church established by Jesus Christ and therefore was not the only church that existed from the days of Pentecost, leading up to the days of the great 11th century east - west schism, meaning that Jesus must have been the founder of not just one church, but rather many self governing churches, something that could not have been readily witnessed until the 16th century protestant reformation, when Christians, belonging to the one catholic church began to break away from the one catholic church, (for various reasons) - meaning that these break away movements that eventually took on the life of a self governing church(es) were not established by Christ, on Pentecost.

In other words:

Self governing independent churches, appointed by Jesus Christ via His apostles, from the very inception of Christianity that spanned the centuries leading up to the days of the east - west schism, that would not have considered themselves part of the one self governing independent catholic church.

By pooling our resources, perhaps, the multitude here at CAF (both catholic and non-catholic) - can reach a consensus as to the exact number of churches that had no affiliation, at any time, with the one catholic church (in other words they were always self governing non-catholic churches since the days of Pentecost) - and yet existed alongside the one catholic church, again, as a separate entity, since the days of Pentecost, leading up to the eventual great 11th century east - west schism?

And of course any and all (if any) - new eastern/orthodox churches that cropped up after the great east - west schism, leading up to the protestant reformation?

Thanks in advance friends…

Joe,
A question my friend. If two communions are in full communion, full altar and pulpit fellowship(for example, the LCMS is in full communion with the Lutheran Church - Canada) yet have different hierarchies, are they 2 different churches, or one?

Jon

 

[AmateurPianist]

I am often told that the catholic church was not the only church established by Jesus Christ and therefore was not the only church that existed from the days of Pentecost, leading up to the days of the great 11th century east - west schism, meaning that Jesus must have been the founder of not just one church, but rather many self governing churches, something that could not have been readily witnessed until the 16th century protestant reformation, when Christians, belonging to the one catholic church began to break away from the one catholic church, (for various reasons) - meaning that these break away movements that eventually took on the life of a self governing church(es) were not established by Christ, on Pentecost.

In other words:

Self governing independent churches, appointed by Jesus Christ via His apostles, from the very inception of Christianity that spanned the centuries leading up to the days of the east - west schism, that would not have considered themselves part of the one self governing independent catholic church.

By pooling our resources, perhaps, the multitude here at CAF (both catholic and non-catholic) - can reach a consensus as to the exact number of churches that had no affiliation, at any time, with the one catholic church (in other words they were always self governing non-catholic churches since the days of Pentecost) - and yet existed alongside the one catholic church, again, as a separate entity, since the days of Pentecost, leading up to the eventual great 11th century east - west schism?

And of course any and all (if any) - new eastern/orthodox churches that cropped up after the great east - west schism, leading up to the protestant reformation?

Thanks in advance friends…

You are assuming two different organizations is the same as two different churches.

 

[philial]

It is easy, by reading the Acts of the Apostles, to claim that a series of autonomous churches were founded. It certainly seems that way, with Paul founding here, and another apostle founding there, and so on. However, two things jump to mind. Firstly, the Council of Jerusalem, mentioned in Acts, had Global authority. What was decided there went out to all the churches, indicating that they shared a lack of autonomy. And, as written by Paul himself, the founders were insignificant, and not to be used as a source of division, but that all belong to Christ!

But, over riding this is the prayer of Christ Himself - " Father, may they all be one!"

 

[JonNC]

It is easy, by reading the Acts of the Apostles, to claim that a series of autonomous churches were founded. It certainly seems that way, with Paul founding here, and another apostle founding there, and so on. However, two things jump to mind. Firstly, the Council of Jerusalem, mentioned in Acts, had Global authority. What was decided there went out to all the churches, indicating that they shared a lack of autonomy. And, as written by Paul himself, the founders were insignificant, and not to be used as a source of division, but that all belong to Christ!

Agreed. A lack of autonomy in doctrine. And this is what prompted my question about the LCMS and LC-C. We share a “lack of autonomy” of doctrine, yet maintain an autonomy of hierarchy.

But, over riding this is the prayer of Christ Himself - " Father, may they all be one!"

Yes.

Jon

 

[joe370]

You are assuming two different organizations is the same as two different churches.

Can you give me an example of 2 separate self governing organizations comprising one church?

 

[joe370]

Joe,
A question my friend. If two communions are in full communion, full altar and pulpit fellowship(for example, the LCMS is in full communion with the Lutheran Church - Canada) yet have different hierarchies, are they 2 different churches, or one?

Jon

I would think just one.

 

[joe370]

philial;8611520]It is easy, by reading the Acts of the Apostles, to claim that a series of autonomous churches were founded.

Those NT churches were one and united, comprising the one catholic church - correct?

 

[AmateurPianist]

Can you give me an example of 2 separate self governing organizations comprising one church?

Sure…there is the Catholic organization, Orthodox organization, Lutheran organization, assorted Baptist organizations, Methodist organizations, etc.

I know that you do not believe it is possible that the church exist in multiple organizations. I don’t see why this is an impossibility (note that I am not claiming this is Fod’s design).

 

[philial]

Those NT churches were one and united, comprising the one catholic church - correct?

I would claim so, since they appear to be autonomous only geographically, but conformed to a single collective authority - the apostles, who met in council -, and an agreed set of beliefs. As time passed, and the original apostles died, they positions were filled by elders/bishops, which body expanded as the Church expanded, but who were able to look back to their episcopal lineage - and the authority that goes with it - as being directly from the Twelve.

This is, essentially, what a conclave does today

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am often told that the catholic church was not the only church established by Jesus Christ and therefore was not the only church that existed from the days of Pentecost, leading up to the days of the great 11th century east - west schism, meaning that Jesus must have been the founder of not just one church, but rather many self governing churches, something that could not have been readily witnessed until the 16th century protestant reformation, when Christians, belonging to the one catholic church began to break away from the one catholic church, (for various reasons) - meaning that these break away movements that eventually took on the life of a self governing church(es) were not established by Christ, on Pentecost.

In other words:

Self governing independent churches, appointed by Jesus Christ via His apostles, from the very inception of Christianity that spanned the centuries leading up to the days of the east - west schism, that would not have considered themselves part of the one self governing independent catholic church.

By pooling our resources, perhaps, the multitude here at CAF (both catholic and non-catholic) - can reach a consensus as to the exact number of churches that had no affiliation, at any time, with the one catholic church (in other words they were always self governing non-catholic churches since the days of Pentecost) - and yet existed alongside the one catholic church, again, as a separate entity, since the days of Pentecost, leading up to the eventual great 11th century east - west schism?

And of course any and all (if any) - new eastern/orthodox churches that cropped up after the great east - west schism, leading up to the protestant reformation?

Thanks in advance friends…

I think we as Catholics know that the Church is not made up of one individual but all of us who are in teh CC. protestantism thinks me and Jesus, there is no us.

This is a big problem for us to get them to see that is not me and Jesus but it is the Church and Jesus. We are God’s people. this makes us One. protestants cannot see this because that is what they have come to believe from those who rebelled against the Church years ago. they are anti Church.

 

[JonNC]

I would think just one.

So, Joe, two separate institutional organizations under two bishops that are autonomous in polity but united in doctrine are one Church. Correct?

Jon

 

[wisdomseeker]

So, Joe, two separate institutional organizations under two bishops that are autonomous in polity but united in doctrine are one Church. Correct?

Jon

Not if their doctrines is not in line with the CC and are outside the CC. the One Church is found by Christ and protected by the HS. any outside her is not a church.

 

[joe370]

Sure…there is the Catholic organization, Orthodox organization, Lutheran organization, assorted Baptist organizations, Methodist organizations, etc.

I know that you do not believe it is possible that the church exist in multiple organizations. I don’t see why this is an impossibility (note that I am not claiming this is Fod’s design).

I count 5 separate self governing churches:

1. Catholic Church
2. Eastern Orthodox church, comprised of several utocephalous churches
3. Lutheran church
4. Baptist Church
5. Methodist Church

 

[joe370]

You are assuming two different organizations is the same as two different churches.

The Catholic Church and the Lutheran church are 2 separate organizations that comprise one church. Is that what you are suggesting? In other words, JonNC, a Christian belonging to the Lutheran organization and myself, belonging to the Catholic organization, both belong to the same church? I must affably disagree…

 

[joe370]

I would claim so, since they appear to be autonomous only geographically, but conformed to a single collective authority - the apostles, who met in council -, and an agreed set of beliefs. As time passed, and the original apostles died, they positions were filled by elders/bishops, which body expanded as the Church expanded, but who were able to look back to their episcopal lineage - and the authority that goes with it - as being directly from the Twelve.

This is, essentially, what a conclave does today

Something we sadly do not see in the Protestant sphere.

 

[joe370]

So, Joe, two separate institutional organizations under two bishops that are autonomous in polity but united in doctrine are one Church. Correct?

Jon

Well, technically we’re still looking at** 2 separate self governing churches** comprised of leaders who do not report to any higher-ranking leader, which happen to be united in doctrine, wouldn’t you agree?

The eastern autocephalous churches come pretty darn close to being one church in spite of the fact that they are separate independent self governing churches, but they too are not, in any way, dependent upon any other church.