One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[St_Francis]

Baha’u’llah gives as much evidence of authority

What is that evidence?

as Jesus did to Peter before His crucifixion. What happened during Jesus’ life was sufficient for Peter to acknowledge His Sonship. If Peter were to accompany Baha’u’llah during His time in the 19th century, He would assign Baha’u’llah with the same station.

Who could follow God Incarnate?
How about the Father Incarnate…that is Baha’u’llah

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You are saying Baha’u’llah **is **God the Father? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[St_Francis]

You misunderstand the different relationship if Christ to the Jews. As God, the “creator” as one might say of Jusaism, He most certainly had the right and authority to complete Judaism.

As to Mohammed and Baha’u’llah, you have not

1. 
   
   shown that they had any authority at all to “fulfilll.” Catholics do not recognize them because who could follow God Incarnate?

1. 
   I wanted to clarify this last phrase, which I realize is ambiguous. I meant what prophet could come after Christ, not who could follow Him as a disciple.

 

[St_Francis]

“Abrogation” is simply incoherent exegesis.

And if it were not substantiated by Mohammed’s actions and those of his followers, I would agree that it is insufficient.

The verses of the Qur’an don’t contradict one another, they supplement and elucidate one another and provide subtlety and context. The “violence” that Muhammad engaged in was self-defensive in nature, and the “violent” verses applied to specific incidents where the specific tribes were waging war against the Muslims.

Within 10 years of Mohammed’s “going public,” he and his followers had taken over the entire Arabian peninsula. Within 130 years, the lands under Moslem control spread from the entire Iberian peninsula almost to India, a process initiated by Mohammed’s direct followers and then theirs. It is beyond the bounds of reason to think the Moslems did this for legitimate reasons of self-defense.

Do you consider Moses and Elijah and Joshua warmongers too?

I did not use that word… Anyway, I can’t imagine why anyone would call Moses and Elijah “warmongerS.” Joshua was a general who at God’s command chased the devil-worshipping Canaanites out of the land God had given Israel, and once those lands were re-taken, he stopped. A far cry from the actual historical facts of Islam.

Also, the link you provided was to an anti-Muslim hate site. I don’t read sites like that any more than I pay attention to anti-Catholic hate sites like Jack Chick’s rantings and ravings.

I posted that just for the quotes from the Koran, not for the commentary. Unfortunately, I do not know Arabic, and so aml limited in the research I can do or the sites I can link too.

I believe the quotes *and *the actions of the followers of Mohammed over the past 14 centuries show the true nature of his teachings.

 

[Servant19]

What is that evidence?

Dear friend, there is a most wondrous Revelation, teachings that can and will transform the individual, the global community and it’s institutions. Go deeply and investigate the fruits of this Spirit

Then we have the Bab and Baha’u’llah’s lives, their own suffering, and the sacrifices their loved ones made in service to them, the courage, the bravery, the humility and utter self-effacement, the love and purity. The miracles, and verifiable historical accounts of supernatural events.

Then we have the completeness of His religion, with it’s own unique calendar, unique and innumerable prayers, modes of worship, fasting, mysticism, it’s own sets of spiritual Laws, and the most important thing, His Mighty Covenant, which after nearly 200 years has safeguarded the complete unity of the religion.

I could go on and on, there is so much to consider.

Please tell me if there is any other criteria you wish to have fulfilled…

You are saying Baha’u’llah **is **God the Father? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Please consider this Tablet by Baha’u’llah:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

Please share your thoughts on one thing that struck you in a spiritually enhancing way from reading this Holy Tablet

.

 

[arthra]

You misunderstand the different relationship if Christ to the Jews. As God, the “creator” as one might say of Jusaism, He most certainly had the right and authority to complete Judaism.

As to Mohammed and Baha’u’llah, you have not shown that they had any authority at all to “fulfilll.” Catholics do not recognize them because who could follow God Incarnate?

It’s true…we Baha’is do not believe God physically incarnates Himself… The Sonship of Jesus is viewed as a spiritual station rather than being literally physical.

Similarly the station of Baha’u’llah as “Father” is not meant literally physical.

O followers of all religions! We behold you wandering distraught in the wilderness of error. Ye are the fish of this Ocean; wherefore do ye withhold yourselves from that which sustaineth you? Lo, it surgeth before your faces. Hasten unto it from every clime. This is the day whereon the Rock [Peter] crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!” This is the Word which was preserved behind the veils of grandeur, and which, when the Promise came to pass, shed its radiance from the horizon of the Divine Will with clear tokens.
(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 59)

 

[1enlighten1]

You know,1enlighten1, aka h123,

You claim that your religion is “The Truth”. And so now I am going to present “The Truth” that you and I already know to the rest of the people on this forum.

The truth is, I treated you like a friend over on bahaiforums. I stood up for you there, I told the Baha’is there to let you talk, and that I felt you were sincere in your beliefs. This despite the fact that you came to that forum solely to attack the Baha’i Faith and try to make it look bad. I knew that, and I knew you were from Iran and had studied the Baha’i Faith solely to attack it. But I believed that you still deserved a chance to redeem yourself, to let go of your hatred, and instead share the beauty of the God you believe in.

I invited you to tell us about the Muslim hajj, about Islamic prayer, about the twelve imams. And you shared your heartfelt beliefs in those areas, and I truly enjoyed reading about them. But then after a couple weeks, you stopped sharing them. Instead you started posting more attacks on Baha’u’llah, on Abdu’l-Baha, and on the Bab. You didn’t want to share your own beliefs any more, you only wanted to attack the Baha’is beliefs. And I sat in silence, deeply saddened to see the effect of hatred on your soul. For months, I just sat there, grieving for you and your behavior.

Daniel, who runs that forum, is a strong believer in freedom of expression. And he allowed you free reign for many months as you continued your crusade against the Baha’i Faith. But finally you went to far. You started a thread so offensive that even Daniel could not allow it to go by without consequence. I cannot post the title here, as it would get me banned from this forum, but here is a link to it:

warning offensive language

You, as you always did there, translated symbolic and metaphoric language in the most offensive literal manner possible, only in the attempt to make the Baha’i Faith look bad. Because that is what you do.

And at long last, Daniel had enough of your behavior, and finally banned you from bahaiforums.

After you got banned,** you came over here to CAF and opened an account that very same day**.

And just as you did in the beginning at Baha’i Forums, you came here and pretended to be friendly to the Baha’is, while asking questions purposely designed to embarrass them. You’ve been studying every negative attack on the Baha’i Faith for years, collecting and compiling them on your website here:

avazedohol.com/eng/

A whois for your website traces to Teheran, Iran, where the government murders and imprisons Baha’is for their faith, even teenage girls:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Mahmudnizhad

Where Baha’is cannot go to school, cannot hold professional jobs, even where Baha’i cemeteries get bulldozed and Baha’i holy sites paved over and turned into parking lots.

huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/14/bahai-cemetery-iran-destroyed_n_5323286.html

Now of course, many Iranians do not support their government’s actions against the Baha’is. And maybe you don’t support their actions either. I don’t know that, and I won’t venture to guess.

But you certainly do hate Baha’u’llah, and attack the Baha’i Faith with such a passion that you’d rather throw mud on Baha’is instead of talking about your own Shia Muslim beliefs, even when invited to do so.

You claim that your religion is “The Truth”. Now I have told everyone the truth about you, and exactly why you are here on CAF.

The hatred in your words is disgusting. I take this post as a very serious personal attack with the intention of disgracing me and starting a smear campaign. You’re lucky I am not a cry baby or else I would have reported your post. I see no reason to answer your slander here.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I see no reason to answer your slander here.

Slander implies that I was lying. But I wasn’t lying, I was telling the truth about who you are and what you wrote over at Baha’i Forums.

Are you or are you not the person who posted as h123 over on Baha’i Forums? That is a simple question and it has a very simple answer. So answer it.

 

[1enlighten1]

Slander implies that I was lying. But I wasn’t lying, I was telling the truth about who you are and what you wrote over at Baha’i Forums.

Are you or are you not the person who posted as h123 over on Baha’i Forums? That is a simple question and it has a very simple answer. So answer it.

You see Mathew I never said all of what you wrote is slander, did I? Every slander can have elements of truth, that is pretty obvious isn’t it? As I said, I will not answer the slander but I will only show a small portion of your words whose falsity is obvious in your own words:
“But you certainly do hate Baha’u’llah, and attack the Baha’i Faith with such a passion that you’d rather throw mud on Baha’is instead of talking about your own Shia Muslim beliefs, even when** invited to** do so.”

Is this not slander? Did I not speak about my own Shia beliefs when you invited me to? You admitted this at the beginning of your post:
“I invited you to tell us about the Muslim hajj, about Islamic prayer, about the twelve imams. And you shared your heartfelt beliefs in those areas, and I truly enjoyed reading about them.”
You contradict your own words about me in a single post.

Did I ever deny I had a user name, h123 in another forum? No. But, does it mean you have to come here and smear me? Does it mean you have to start a personal attack? Look how much mud you just threw at me. You basically buried me in mud. Why would you post all those stuff about me in the firs place?

May God guide you

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Here it is once and for all Ignatian!

BAHAIS WILL NOT WORSHIP AT THE ALTAR OF BA’AL

BAHAIS WILL NOT GO TO STONEHENGE AND OARTICIPATE IN SOME RITUALISTIC IDOL WORSHIP.

I hope and pray you will stop repeating these same questions over and over again.

I look forwarding to the next time you ask us this question again. Maybe capital letters will act as a reminder to how many times we have answered this question to you.

You are in my prayers

.

The answer is given but somehow I must question it given the general universality Bahais express and how hesitant other bahais have been to deny such things when asked of them in the past. Tell me, are there are only 9 true religions?

 

[tonyfish58]

Slander implies that I was lying. But I wasn’t lying, I was telling the truth about who you are and what you wrote over at Baha’i Forums.

Are you or are you not the person who posted as h123 over on Baha’i Forums? That is a simple question and it has a very simple answer. So answer it.

Matthew - All I can say dear friend is Wow

I did not pick up on the deception

God Bless all on this site that are here to share the Love of God, with no hidden agenda!

May we all share the Love of God and God grant that we may all grow in the Capacity of that Love

Regards To all Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

The answer is given but somehow I must question it given the general universality Bahais express and how hesitant other bahais have been to deny such things when asked of them in the past. Tell me, are there are only 9 true religions?

IgnatianPhilo - The number of True Religions is not known. The Dispensations of God are Unknowable.

There are the Major Prophets and there are minor Prophets. The Major Prophets are as Jesus, they are the embodiment of the Holy Spirit. The Minor Prophets receive their revelation through the Major Prophets and not Directly from God.

The Baha’i Faith generally quotes the Nine known Major Religions, but some have looked in to it.

This link will give a personal view of the list - bahai9.com/wiki/Prophets

Prior Manifestations of God (in approximate reverse chronological order)

Muhammad (see also the Imámate)
Christ (on the issue of successorship, see Peter)
Buddha
Zoroaster
Elijah (Elias)
Elisha?
Dhu'l Kifl?
Jonah (Jonas)
Jethro?
Aaron?
Moses
Krishna
Joseph
Jacob?
Isaac?
Ishmael (Ismael)
Lot (Lut)
Abraham (Ibráhím)
David (not King David) (list earlier?)?
Sálih
Húd
Noah
Founder of Sabaeanism (unknown if older or more recent than Hinduism; same as Seth and/or Idrís?)
Idrís (or Hermes; same as Enoch?)
Enoch?
Seth?
Abel
Adam
Pre-Adamic Prophets

---

Lesser prophets

Isaiah
Daniel
Ezekiel
Zechariah
Micah
Joel
Jeremiah
Job
Solomon
King David (see also the discussion at David)
Zakariya
John the Baptist
Joshua?

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

IgnatianPhilo - The number of True Religions is not known. The Dispensations of God are Unknowable.

There are the Major Prophets and there are minor Prophets. The Major Prophets are as Jesus, they are the embodiment of the Holy Spirit. The Minor Prophets receive their revelation through the Major Prophets and not Directly from God.

The Baha’i Faith generally quotes the Nine known Major Religions, but some have looked in to it.

This link will give a personal view of the list - bahai9.com/wiki/Prophets

Prior Manifestations of God (in approximate reverse chronological order)

Muhammad (see also the Imámate)
Christ (on the issue of successorship, see Peter)
Buddha
Zoroaster
Elijah (Elias)
Elisha?
Dhu'l Kifl?
Jonah (Jonas)
Jethro?
Aaron?
Moses
Krishna
Joseph
Jacob?
Isaac?
Ishmael (Ismael)
Lot (Lut)
Abraham (Ibráhím)
David (not King David) (list earlier?)?
Sálih
Húd
Noah
Founder of Sabaeanism (unknown if older or more recent than Hinduism; same as Seth and/or Idrís?)
Idrís (or Hermes; same as Enoch?)
Enoch?
Seth?
Abel
Adam
Pre-Adamic Prophets

---

Lesser prophets

Isaiah
Daniel
Ezekiel
Zechariah
Micah
Joel
Jeremiah
Job
Solomon
King David (see also the discussion at David)
Zakariya
John the Baptist
Joshua?

God Bless and Regards Tony

So there is more than one true religion? The question then is this, are there any false religions? Are you willing to affirm some religions false?

 

[Servant19]

So there is more than one true religion? The question then is this, are there any false religions? Are you willing to affirm some religions false?

No there is only one true religion, the Religion of God. All the Beings in that list are contributors to the Chapters of the Book of God.

Some false religions include:

Raelism
The Moonie religion
Growing in Grace Church
Breatharianism
Occultism
Providence Church
Rastafarianism
David Koresh and his religion

Just off the top of my head

.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I would add that many Baha’is accept Quetzalcoatl and Deganawida as almost certainly being Manifestations of God, but the Baha’i Faith no longer has anyone authorized to make a determination of interpretation (dogma) about this question since the passing of Shoghi Effendi.

 

[Servant19]

I would add that many Baha’is accept Quetzalcoatl and Deganawida as almost certainly being Manifestations of God, but the Baha’i Faith no longer has anyone authorized to make a determination of interpretation (dogma) about this question since the passing of Shoghi Effendi.

South American indigenous religions?

.

 

[tonyfish58]

South American indigenous religions?.

Ancient Australian Aboriginal?

A lot of these very Old Religion have been lost in detail as there was no written words, just passed down by Story.

But none the less the connection the Aboriginal of Australia have with Mother Earth is God Given. We could have learned a lot from them, instead we tried to “convert” them.

How can you tell someone that has such a strong foundation in the Love of a Creator, that they are wrong?

Religions that have tried forcibly to convert followers soon learn that they do not Teach the True Love of God.

God bless all - Regards Tony?

 

[Servant19]

Ancient Australian Aboriginal?

A lot of these very Old Religion have been lost in detail as there was no written words, just passed down by Story.

But none the less the connection the Aboriginal of Australia have with Mother Earth is God Given. We could have learned a lot from them, instead we tried to “convert” them.

How can you tell someone that has such a strong foundation in the Love of a Creator, that they are wrong?

Religions that have tried forcibly to convert followers soon learn that they do not Teach the True Love of God.

God bless all - Regards Tony?

Absolutely Tony!

One of the Aboriginal elders in Australia who has become a Bahai, Phillip Obah, has written a landmark book connecting the mystical symbols of Aboriginal spirituality together, and behold, the 80,000 year old Traditions of Aboriginal religions all point to the coming of Baha’u’llah.

This book is a tremendous source of healing and acceptance for the Aboriginal peoples for their experiences of modern religion is been markedly (although not entirely) paternalistic, patronising and oppressive.

May they all find solace and healing in their search for acceptance, which today, thanks to showerings of abundant grace poured upon humanity by Baha’u’llah, is now available to them.

They can finally “taste and see that The Lord is good”



.

 

[Matthew_Light]

South American indigenous religions?

.

The two I listed are from North America and Mesoamerica.

But the Baha’i Writings make it clear that the Divine Message was sent to all peoples at one time or another.

 

[St_Francis]

Dear friend, there is a most wondrous Revelation, teachings that can and will transform the individual, the global community and it’s institutions. Go deeply and investigate the fruits of this Spirit

Then we have the Bab and Baha’u’llah’s lives, their own suffering, and the sacrifices their loved ones made in service to them, the courage, the bravery, the humility and utter self-effacement, the love and purity. The miracles, and verifiable historical accounts of supernatural events.

Then we have the completeness of His religion, with it’s own unique calendar, unique and innumerable prayers, modes of worship, fasting, mysticism, it’s own sets of spiritual Laws, and the most important thing, His Mighty Covenant, which after nearly 200 years has safeguarded the complete unity of the religion.

I could go on and on, there is so much to consider.

Please tell me if there is any other criteria you wish to have fulfilled…

Please consider this Tablet by Baha’u’llah:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

Please share your thoughts on one thing that struck you in a spiritually enhancing way from reading this Holy Tablet

.

What struck me is that it did not answer my question, but seem to try to convince people they should believe Baha’u’llah because others missed precious prophets. By the same logic, I should invest in the business those college drop-outs down the street want to start in their garage…

 

[Servant19]

What struck me is that it did not answer my question, but seem to try to convince people they should believe Baha’u’llah because others missed precious prophets. By the same logic, I should invest in the business those college drop-outs down the street want to start in their garage…

Ok dear friend, I will assist you. It seems you did not read the entirety of the Tablet. Thats something, we Baha’is learn to be patient with.

I did also ask for something that struck you in a spiritually “positive” way, but it seems you wish to focus on the things that struck you negatively…

Here is the specific paragraph (paragraph 7) that answers your question:

“The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul.”

I believe our dear friend arthra also shared this quote a few posts back on this thread.

I really feel a healthy dialogue revolves around a genuine interest to learn, and instrumental to that is to “read” what others are saying, otherwise one is really engaged in conversation with oneself

We have come to the conclusion that IgnatianPhilo does not really read our posts, hence the tiresome repetition of old posts reflecting fundamental Baha’i teachings.

Please let us face our Lord in heaven and with hearts beaming, let Him know that we have given great EFFORT and honesty in our search for Him

.