One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[St_Francis]

Ok dear friend, I will assist you. It seems you did not read the entirety of the Tablet. Thats something, we Baha’is learn to be patient with.

I did also ask for something that struck you in a spiritually “positive” way, but it seems you wish to focus on the things that struck you negatively…

Here is the specific paragraph (paragraph 7) that answers your question:

I believe our dear friend arthra also shared this quote a few posts back on this thread.

I really feel a healthy dialogue revolves around a genuine interest to learn, and instrumental to that is to “read” what others are saying, otherwise one is really engaged in conversation with oneself

We have come to the conclusion that IgnatianPhilo does not really read our posts, hence the tiresome repetition of old posts reflecting fundamental Baha’i teachings.

Please let us face our Lord in heaven and with hearts beaming, let Him know that we have given great EFFORT and honesty in our search for Him

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The words which Christ spoke at that time referred to the coming of the Holy Spirit, the third Person of God, not some future human being.

You seem to want to ask a question you believe you know the answer to, in order to lure certain less-attached people into learning more about Bahai. You are doing this on a Catholic board, which seems quite rude, despite all your protestations of friendship, and which is against the express rules of the Forum.

I hope that I have written answers sufficient to your efforts that others may not be turned away from the true path of the One Who said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father **except through Me.” **

 

[tonyfish58]

Absolutely Tony!

One of the Aboriginal elders in Australia who has become a Bahai, Phillip Obah, has written a landmark book connecting the mystical symbols of Aboriginal spirituality together, and behold, the 80,000 year old Traditions of Aboriginal religions all point to the coming of Baha’u’llah.

This book is a tremendous source of healing and acceptance for the Aboriginal peoples for their experiences of modern religion is been markedly (although not entirely) paternalistic, patronising and oppressive.

May they all find solace and healing in their search for acceptance, which today, thanks to showerings of abundant grace poured upon humanity by Baha’u’llah, is now available to them.

They can finally “taste and see that The Lord is good”.

Here is a link to a report on a talk He Gave

bahai.uga.edu/News/062901.html

A Quote from that talk

“I wasn’t looking for religion,” Obah said. “I was on a journey of looking at my own traditional culture.”

Obah, a self-described retired Catholic, said it was the Baha’i faith that helped him understand the colonization of his people.
He realized it was inevitable, according to what Bahullah, the founder of the Baha’i faith, had written.

“The way it happened I don’t agree with,” Obah said of the colonization. " But it had to happen to bring about the unity of mankind."

“Before Baha’i we (the aborigines) hated everyone white,” Obah said. “We marched the streets and told them to get on the boat and go back home.”

Thank you - God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

The words which Christ spoke at that time referred to the coming of the Holy Spirit, the third Person of God, not some future human being.

You seem to want to ask a question you believe you know the answer to, in order to lure certain less-attached people into learning more about Bahai. You are doing this on a Catholic board, which seems quite rude, despite all your protestations of friendship, and which is against the express rules of the Forum.

I hope that I have written answers sufficient to your efforts that others may not be turned away from the true path of the One Who said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father **except through Me.” **

Of course it’s a human Person. Jesus said He would return. Not in the form of a Spirit but as a Person. I can give you numerous passages that point to this reality.

I feel I have tested your patience and levels of tolerance with your accusation of rudeness.

There is no point in a “Non-Catholic religions” forum if the purpose of it is to conform all our thinking to point to the “correctness” of Catholicism at the exclusion of all other religions.

Calling us rude because we lovingly attempt to guide all peoples towards a universal Truth found in all major global religions is in itself unCatholic. The fact that it was Baha’u’llah who first testifies to the Truths of ALL global religions is not one of us attempting to lure Catholics away from Catholicism, it is in fact, an attempt to lure ignorant Catholics towards the teachings of Catholicism today.

I wish you well

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[tonyfish58]

The words which Christ spoke at that time referred to the coming of the Holy Spirit, the third Person of God, not some future human being.

You seem to want to ask a question you believe you know the answer to, in order to lure certain less-attached people into learning more about Bahai. You are doing this on a Catholic board, which seems quite rude, despite all your protestations of friendship, and which is against the express rules of the Forum.

I hope that I have written answers sufficient to your efforts that others may not be turned away from the true path of the One Who said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father **except through Me.” **

Dear St Francis - I would also say this is the Forum where we learn about other religions.

If it is not good then why is there a place on CAF to do this? I for thank CAF and the Catholic Church for having open hearts!

We ask questions and give answers based on our knowledge of the Baha’i and all other Faiths. Sometimes the best way to answer is with a question to encourage thought. It is not a trap, you either think about it or leave it alone!

Could it not be that our aim is also to show people a path to the One Who said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me.”

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

No there is only one true religion, the Religion of God. All the Beings in that list are contributors to the Chapters of the Book of God.

Some false religions include:

Raelism
The Moonie religion
Growing in Grace Church
Breatharianism
Occultism
Providence Church
Rastafarianism
David Koresh and his religion

Just off the top of my head

.

Fascinating. But heres where we actually disagree, in the way you use one religion. What is a religion? At the most basic level where it applies to what we actually call religion it is “A belief in certain creeds, dogmas, doctrines, theology, practice and way of worship.”

I have heard Bahai say that Christianity is a true religion despite the fact they disagree with almost every Christian doctrine concerning Christ and who God is. It is, i think, difficult to maintain all the so called revealed ways as being of the true religion because of the contradictions and I think you know this because inevitably the bahai will say that Christianity has been influenced and changed by man. That would be consistent and logical a position. So please, don’t attempt to say Christianity in all its forms is legitimate, just answer the questions, have Christians maintained the true apostolic faith or has it been corrupted?

 

[Servant19]

Fascinating. But heres where we actually disagree, in the way you use one religion. What is a religion? At the most basic level where it applies to what we actually call religion it is “A belief in certain creeds, dogmas, doctrines, theology, practice and way of worship.”

Baha’u’llah addresses this specifically dear friend:

“The traditions established the fact that in all Dispensations the law of prayer hath constituted a fundamental element of the Revelation of all the Prophets of God—a law the form and the manner of which hath been adapted to the varying requirements of every age. Inasmuch as every subsequent Revelation hath abolished the manners, habits, and teachings that have been clearly, specifically, and firmly established by the former Dispensation…”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html.utf8?query=sun&action=highlight#gr36

The outcomes of these differing practices is one and the same thing…it is the Spirit Ignatian, nothing else but the “inner condition” of the person offering the prayer.
The outer forms are really not relevant…prayer is prayer.

Someone accepting the Eucharist may well be in a “spiritually” unacceptable condition in the sight of God, whereas an Aboriginal person offering a sincere prayer to the Ultimate Reality may well be more accepted in the sight of God.

I have heard Bahai say that Christianity is a true religion despite the fact they disagree with almost every Christian doctrine concerning Christ and who God is. It is, i think, difficult to maintain all the so called revealed ways as being of the true religion because of the contradictions and I think you know this because inevitably the bahai will say that Christianity has been influenced and changed by man. That would be consistent and logical a position. So please, don’t attempt to say Christianity in all its forms is legitimate, just answer the questions, have Christians maintained the true apostolic faith or has it been corrupted?

Dear friend…

Hebrews 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

John 16:12 I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.

1 Cor. 3:1* And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Even today Ignatian, the solid food of “UNITY” has not been accepted by the Christian community, even today, one says Paul, the other says Apollos. One says Rome, the other says not Rome.

Baha’u’llah has come to offer the solid food, its really that simple. The evidence is the current, globally unified Baha’i community.



.

 

[tonyfish58]

Fascinating. But heres where we actually disagree, in the way you use one religion. What is a religion? At the most basic level where it applies to what we actually call religion it is “A belief in certain creeds, dogmas, doctrines, theology, practice and way of worship.”

I have heard Bahai say that Christianity is a true religion despite the fact they disagree with almost every Christian doctrine concerning Christ and who God is. It is, i think, difficult to maintain all the so called revealed ways as being of the true religion because of the contradictions and I think you know this because inevitably the bahai will say that Christianity has been influenced and changed by man. That would be consistent and logical a position. So please, don’t attempt to say Christianity in all its forms is legitimate, just answer the questions, have Christians maintained the true apostolic faith or has it been corrupted?

IgnatianPhilo - From the Baha’i Writings posted many times, the answer to this question was made very apparent. It may be you did not read these answers?

Dear friend it is not to us to proportion such harsh words as “Corrupted”. We are all but lowly servants, it is to God alone I leave the Judgement. To which as sated above has been done.

Thus You can answer your own Question when you ask yourself these questions.

Up to the coming of Christ, was the Jewish Religion a True Religion?

After the coming of Christ was the True meaning of Scripture veiled to the Jews or do they still follow the True Path to their Lord?

The answer that you find on asking these questions, is most likely the same answer that we have posted time and again!

Again here is a reply from the Baha’i Writings, but first up is wisdom as to how to accept Gods Word: Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-7.html#pg211

“The understanding of His words and the comprehension of the utterances of the Birds of Heaven are in no wise dependent upon human learning. They depend solely upon purity of heart, chastity of soul, and freedom of spirit”.

This is a Tablet from Baha’u’llah addressed to the Christians (LAWḤ-I-AQDAS - The Most Holy Tablet), Baha’u’llah has answered your question, here is and extract and the link to the Tablet - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

“They read the Evangel and yet refuse to acknowledge the All-Glorious Lord, notwithstanding that He hath come through the potency of His exalted, His mighty and gracious dominion. We, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit, and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray. Do ye imagine that He seeketh His own interests, when He hath, at all times, been threatened by the swords of the enemies; or that He seeketh the vanities of the world, after He hath been imprisoned in the most desolate of cities? Be fair in your judgement and follow not the footsteps of the unjust”.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Just answer the questions, have Christians maintained the true apostolic faith or has it been corrupted?

IgnatianPhilo - A question like this could be like a Doctor who is facing a Very Fragile Patient and has to tell them they have a terminal illness and knows that the pill he has to offer to fix the condition right away is too big to swallow and its prescription may indeed immediately cause death. The Doctor can treat the patient with smaller doses but also knows that this will take some time and will mean much more pain and ultimately may also may fail.

What does the Doctor say and what does He Prescribe?

I read this, this morning - It is what you are after. It really needs to be read in context as well, so here is the link to page 212 (it is on page 213) - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-7.html#pg212

…"Even as the Christian divines who, holding fast to the verse of the Gospel to which We have already referred, have sought to explain that the law of the Gospel shall at no time be annulled, and that no independent Prophet shall again be made manifest, unless He confirmeth the law of the Gospel. Most of the people have become afflicted with the same spiritual disease…And when He Who is well-grounded in all knowledge, He Who is the Mother, the Soul, the Secret, and the Essence thereof, revealeth that which is the least contrary to their desire, they bitterly oppose Him and shamelessly deny Him…“What thinkest thou? He who hath made a God of his passions, and whom God causeth to err through a knowledge, and whose ears and whose heart He hath sealed up, and over whose sight He hath cast a veil—who, after his rejection by God, shall guide such a one? Will ye not then be warned?”

I put one part in bold, but remember You did choose the big pill, I hope it makes you better

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, gifted all human beings with eternal life if they but placed their faith in Him.

I think what non-Christians do not understand is that once eternal life has been given to a human being, there is nothing of equal or greater value to be received. for that reason, the Christian sees no reason to place their faith in any other human being. whatever a human being besides Jesus has to offer is of little to no significance to a Christian.

so, all you non-Christians out there, if you understand what I have just written, you should be able to understand why your attempts to make people believe that Jesus did not provide us with everything we need and thus another human being is needed to provide for the gaps in Jesus’ life and teachings are doomed to failure.

we Christians have been granted eternal life through the merits of Jesus Christ. we really do not need anything else.

Christians have been freed from slavery to sin and the consequence of sin, death through the theological virtue of faith. Christians hope and pray that non-Christians may also be saved through the merits of Jesus Christ, but the promise of salvation is explicitly granted to those who believe in Jesus Christ and to no other human beings.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I find it hard to justify that in the age of Jesus It was apparently okay to invoke Jesus’ name, as if he were someone super special, “ Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,” and then it suddenly became taboo with Islam and totally irrelevant to bahai. My question however was not your view of how you understand these different revelations but what do we define religion as. Religion has a specific meaning as do their practices.

You are arguing that the outcomes of the practices of our religions are the same. Are they? Do you have any idea of what a theology of Eucharist, Icons, veneration of saints and the Theotokos, bible reading, patristic reading, Easter, Christmas and the like amount to? Is it the same as the bahai tradition? It is not, and you know this. The Christian tradition has a totally different outcome than the bahai religion in what it views as ultimately important. Christ for the Christian is what is ultimately important, the trinity, Father son and Holy spirit whom he has revealed properly. For the bahai what is most important is changing this world so as to make Utopia a reality, as per what Bahai have said was the primary purpose of your prophet’s arrival(Salvation having already happened and been completed by Jesus Christ of which there is nothing to add except to perfect this world).

But then you have said the outer forms do not matter. That prayer matters. I dare say no Bahai could pray an Orthodox prayer:

O God and Lord of the Powers, and Maker of all creation, Who, because of Thy clemency and incomparable mercy, didst send Thine Only-Begotten Son and our Lord Jesus Christ for the salvation of mankind, and with His venerable Cross didst tear asunder the record of our sins, and thereby didst conquer the rulers and powers of darkness; receive from us sinful people, O merciful Master, these prayers of gratitude and supplication, and deliver us from every destructive and gloomy transgression, and from all visible and invisible enemies who seek to injure us. Nail down our flesh with fear of Thee, and let not our hearts be inclined to words or thoughts of evil, but pierce our souls with Thy love, that ever contemplating Thee, being enlightened by Thee, and discerning Thee, the unapproachable and everlasting Light, we may unceasingly render confession and gratitude to Thee: The eternal Father, with Thine Only-Begotten Son, and with Thine All-Holy, Gracious, and Life-Giving Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

Or

O Lord Eternal and Creator of all things,
Who of Thy inscrutable goodness called me to this life;
Who bestowed on me the grace of Baptism
and the Seal of the Holy Spirit;
Who imbued me with the desire to seek Thee,
the one true God: hear my prayer.
I have no life, no light, no joy or wisdom;
no strength except in Thee, O God.
Because of my unrighteousness I dare not raise my eyes to Thee.

Now you will protest. You will say you could pray these things and I know how you can say that, because you will have to reinterpret the words. But could you say these words in the way in which any Christian might understand them? No you could not.

As for your butchering of the New Testament, that you think this will impress anyone baffles me. Here I will be most frank. You cannot tell me, that you have no knowledge of the Corinthian community if you have read that letter even a dozen times. The Corinthian were previously gentiles, they did not understand everything they had received. Hence why the Apostle, whom is writing against them for dividing themselves, says they need milk which a basic teaching and not something solid, a more complex teaching. Do we then imagine, Paul who was taken up to the third heaven? Wherein he could not relay the wonders he saw? Did Paul lack the solid food or did the Corinthians? Obviously the Corinthians lacked the solid food whereas Paul entrusted with the oracles of God (for remember he had it revealed to him directly) was trying to teach them this oracle, that Christ died for sinners and rose the third day. The same argument goes towards Hebrews.

As for the Gospel of John, you ignore the book of acts. You ignore the book of John when it clearly tells you that Jesus is not telling them to wait for a Persian mystic to come 2000 years later, but the holy spirit whom in the very end of the book he breaths upon them. Then in the book of Luke and acts we see Jesus preaching to them for forty days and they received the gift of tongues at pentacost. You have tried to bring up John Many times to argue for your prophet’s being legitimate, but everytime you refuse to go deeper. If you are maintaining that the apostles could not teach the solid food, then defend it, if you are maintaining that Jesus did not promise the spirit to his apostles and teach them the fullness of the faith in him after his are resurrection, then defend it.

But this will only serve your ends, to avoid the actual topic. I would rather that we maintain course, wouldn’t you? What is this discussion about? Can multiple different religions be true or can there be only one true religion? Can bahai and Christianity both be true? The bahai have said that paganism isn’t a legitimate form of worshipping God (or they would not object to the accusation that they wouldn’t mind worshipping idols if they had the chance), so there is something you admit that disqualifies paganism from being a legitimate religion.

What disqualifies paganism? What disqualifies the worship of the Virgin Athena?

Now in response to Tony

Now I notice that Tony cannot affirm that Christianity is corrupted. Here is my question for him. Does he agree with this statement.

That within God there is only One Substance which is divinity.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

That within God there is only One Substance which is divinity.

Sharing this one substance without division or confusion are three persons (Hypostases) the father and the son and the Holy spirit.

No one else other than these is God. Not Muhammad, not Moses, not Ali Hussain. They do not share the one substance of divinity.

Now answer this question Tony. I will note, that giving a flowery response in which you basically say “let’s just love brother,” or “ it is to God alone I leave the Judgement,” do not constitute an actual response. I know you want to get away from the implications of the question, but I will not let you. If you require help understanding the definition I will quote extensively if need be academic, patristic and theological sources so that you might understand. I will add another annotation, do not reinterpret the words on the page to conform with your own ideas. When I say Divinity I do not mean it in a vague sense in which it could be said of any of your messengers, I mean it in the absolute sense in which it is limited to God alone. No created being then could be divine, if they began to exist, they are not divine by this definition.

Now do your best to not avoid. I know you can do it if you put your mind to it.

 

[SteveVH]

Hello again Steve, good to hear from you again

It’s saddening to hear that during our conversations in the past it is felt that “only you” provided historical evidence and rational thought.

It’s evident that we are the ones in need of your prayers, and I thank you for them dear friend.

God bless you

.

Sad, indeed. And, you’re welcome.

 

[rinnie]

God bless you dear friend. I in no way wish to sway you from such a pure and sincere devotion to your (and my) Beloved.

I would ask you to possibly consider the following.

In order for virtuous people to claim that Jesus was God, they would need to know what God is in the first place.

In order for me to claim that this round, orange object is an orange I would have had to have the experience of that said object in the past to verify such a thing.

How many of these virtuous people were in direct contact with God,** before meeting Jesus**, in order to verify that Jesus was God?

Even if Jesus claimed to be God, for which there is no Biblical evidence for such a thing, how would a virtuous person know that Jesus was telling the truth?

Even if Jesus did many miracles that proved to many observers to conclude that He is God, how do we know that He was not God, “from the puny, limited perspective of the human being”?

To a plant, human beings are God. It’s all relative dear friend.

If Hod can create degrees if creation from mineral, to plant, to animal, to human, then surely we can assume that there are other degrees of creation to which we are not privy. To a mineral, there is ABSOLUTELY no knowledge that human beings even exist. It’s beyond the capacity for a mineral to even discern the existence of humans.

Why cannot this apply to humans too? It seems rational to me, how about you dear friend?



.

But Jesus did claim to be God. He was asked are you the Son of God and he said I AM.

If you go back to the Old Test. and Abraham asked who am I to say you are. God said, tell them I AM.

Jesus is God in the person of the Son.

When Jesus was on trial for murder he was asked are you God, he said you said it. He never denied it.

There are 2 proofs.

The 3rd was when he asked Peter who do you say I am Peter, He said you are the Son of God. Jesus said it was not flesh and blood that revealed this but the Holy Spirit, tell no one.

Another time he said to Thomas you still do not know who I AM Thomas? Get it I AM, Thomas said no, show me the Father so I can see him, Jesus said I AM look at me when you see me you see the Father.

Those are the times I can recall for this second.

To a plant human beings being God?? That makes no sense. Plants do not have a brain, nor a soul, nor an intelligence level. Plants are not human beings. God did not make plants in his image, he made man in his image.

We know God is God of all the world living and dead because he is the Master of all. He created everything that exists.

We know that he is what he is, and who he is, by what we are. We know he created us because he is the only one who truly knows what we need, and he is the only one with the means to provide us with true happiness.

He is the only one that the older we get the more important in our lives he becomes, because in the end we live to die to this world to meet him face to face in the next, because that’s what we are created for.

The older people get, the more we see the uselessness of the material things in this world because they become boring, worthless. And the more attractive eternal life with God becomes. You hear older people say everyday as they age, I wish God would just take me home.

It is because they have lived and see all they want to see here, they want true life in God, they begin to see what this world was all about.

 

[rinnie]

Dear St Francis - I would also say this is the Forum where we learn about other religions.

If it is not good then why is there a place on CAF to do this? I for thank CAF and the Catholic Church for having open hearts!

We ask questions and give answers based on our knowledge of the Baha’i and all other Faiths. Sometimes the best way to answer is with a question to encourage thought. It is not a trap, you either think about it or leave it alone!

Could it not be that our aim is also to show people a path to the One Who said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me.”

God Bless and Regards Tony

Well Tony if your aim is also to show a path to the one who said, I AM, the way the truth…then you would acknowledge the one who said these words.

And that is Jesus Christ, Here is another thing he said, If you are not for me you are against me.

If you are for Jesus Christ you are up front and admit it, no games, no secrets, etc. Jesus was like that. He told the truth and lived it and taught it.

He said he is God because he is God.

He said I AM the way the truth and the life…because its the truth.

So if you are showing people the path remember what Jesus said it has to be through HIM!

As Jesus said there is no other way, the only way to the Father is through JESUS!

 

[Servant19]

I find it hard to justify that in the age of Jesus It was apparently okay to invoke Jesus’ name, as if he were someone super special, “ Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,” and then it suddenly became taboo with Islam and totally irrelevant to bahai. My question however was not your view of how you understand these different revelations but what do we define religion as. Religion has a specific meaning as do their practices.

So who’s name was it okay to invoke before Jesus came? Moses? Jehovah? Yahweh? What was the name?
The Jews invoked “someone” in their prayers.

That name became “taboo” as you put it, when the Christians started invoking Jesus and Jesus only. You don’t find that difficult to justify? Why?

The definition of religion.
Again, this changed from Judaism to Christianity. What is a Christians definition of religion?
Please provide this for us dear friend

You are arguing that the outcomes of the practices of our religions are the same. Are they? Do you have any idea of what a theology of Eucharist, Icons, veneration of saints and the Theotokos, bible reading, patristic reading, Easter, Christmas and the like amount to? Is it the same as the bahai tradition? It is not, and you know this.
The Christian tradition has a totally different outcome than the bahai religion in what it views as ultimately important. Christ for the Christian is what is ultimately important, the trinity, Father son and Holy spirit whom he has revealed properly. For the bahai what is most important is changing this world so as to make Utopia a reality, as per what Bahai have said was the primary purpose of your prophet’s arrival(Salvation having already happened and been completed by Jesus Christ of which there is nothing to add except to perfect this world).

Again, Ignatian, this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Baha’i position.
The Baha’i position is reiterated again and again throughout the Writings, and even the Universal House of Justice, in its abundant loving guidance to the world, never cease in reminding us what is important:

*"…a people, increasingly aware of the Person of Baha’u’llah, is learning, through reflection on experience, consultation, and study, how to act on the truths enshrined in His Revelation, such that the widening circle of spiritual kindred is ever more closely bound together by ties of collective worship and service." * - Universal House of Justice 2014

The Person of Baha’u’llah is the cornerstone of the Baha’i religion.

Now this is what you struggle with. The Person of Baha’u’llah is not the physical Person that walked the earth, it is the Eternal Logos that revealed Himself 2000 years ago also (named Jesus)

1 Peter 1:20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

MANIFESTED, dear friend. So the physical Jesus was one manifestation of the Eternal Logos.

“When righteousness is weak and faints, and unrighteousness exalts in pride, then My Spirit arises on earth. For the salvation of those who are good and the destruction of evil in men, I come to this earth from Age to Age” - Bhagavad Gita

Does that not also sound like someone who “manifests” Himself on earth?

You see when we look at things with a broader, more panoramic view, we see connections, and explanations, and UNITY, and LOVE, and ONENESS. These are all of God…fruits of the Holy Spirit…

Exclusion, disunity, denominational, and segregation, separation and patronisation, and condemnation are NOT of God.

It is your choice dear friend. Human beings only have limited time, patience and ability to keep persevering with your insistence to veil yourself from this Glorious Sun of Truth.

Your choice

But then you have said the outer forms do not matter. That prayer matters. I dare say no Bahai could pray an Orthodox prayer:

O God and Lord of the Powers, and Maker of all creation, Who, because of Thy clemency and incomparable mercy, didst send Thine Only-Begotten Son and our Lord Jesus Christ for the salvation of mankind, and with His venerable Cross didst tear asunder the record of our sins, and thereby didst conquer the rulers and powers of darkness; receive from us sinful people, O merciful Master, these prayers of gratitude and supplication, and deliver us from every destructive and gloomy transgression, and from all visible and invisible enemies who seek to injure us. Nail down our flesh with fear of Thee, and let not our hearts be inclined to words or thoughts of evil, but pierce our souls with Thy love, that ever contemplating Thee, being enlightened by Thee, and discerning Thee, the unapproachable and everlasting Light, we may unceasingly render confession and gratitude to Thee: The eternal Father, with Thine Only-Begotten Son, and with Thine All-Holy, Gracious, and Life-Giving Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

I have not a SINGLE problem with saying this prayer.
If I heard it in a Church, I would recognise its sanctity, would readily close my eyes, bow, kneel down, be submissive before God and may even weep.

I RECOGNISE JESUS’ SUFFERING

 

[Servant19]

Or

O Lord Eternal and Creator of all things,
Who of Thy inscrutable goodness called me to this life;
Who bestowed on me the grace of Baptism
and the Seal of the Holy Spirit;
Who imbued me with the desire to seek Thee,
the one true God: hear my prayer.
I have no life, no light, no joy or wisdom;
no strength except in Thee, O God.
Because of my unrighteousness I dare not raise my eyes to Thee.

Again, not a problem at all. What wonderful prayers

Now you will protest. You will say you could pray these things

Ah, you got me

and I know how you can say that, because you will have to reinterpret the words. But could you say these words in the way in which any Christian might understand them? No you could not.

Why would a Christian understand them in a way different to the words being spoken?

Are we not speaking English here?

Not once do the prayers say that Jesus is God. He is the Son OF God. The Baha’i Faith fully recognises the Sonship of Jesus, so I have no problems win reciting these prayers

As for your butchering of the New Testament, that you think this will impress anyone baffles me. Here I will be most frank. You cannot tell me, that you have no knowledge of the Corinthian community if you have read that letter even a dozen times. The Corinthian were previously gentiles, they did not understand everything they had received. Hence why the Apostle, whom is writing against them for dividing themselves, says they need milk which a basic teaching and not something solid, a more complex teaching. Do we then imagine, Paul who was taken up to the third heaven? Wherein he could not relay the wonders he saw? Did Paul lack the solid food or did the Corinthians? Obviously the Corinthians lacked the solid food whereas Paul entrusted with the oracles of God (for remember he had it revealed to him directly) was trying to teach them this oracle, that Christ died for sinners and rose the third day. The same argument goes towards Hebrews.

Of course I know this dear friend. The Corinthians were exactly as you say. So why would Paul wish to feed THEM milk and not solid food?

Because he recognised fully that this is the way, the All-Wise One works his transformative miracles. One does not feed a baby solid food.

What I am telling you is that the modern day Corinthians are those that do not recognise the Person of Baha’u’llah. They manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit to the best of their ability, yet they do not recognise the Harbinger of those gifts, the Begetter of the Holy Spirit Himself.

Paul did not lack the solid food, he knew it all! Indeed…

God works in exactly the same way. Baha’u’llah has given the “solid food” of the new earth.

James Lind in 1753 discovered that citrus prevents and cures scurvy, it took 50 YEARS for sailors to start using citrus fruits on their ships! 50 YEARS…

Todays, new discoveries are rolled out perpetually, and as they are rolled out, new discoveries are made to replace them. INDEED, we live in a new earth. This has been a phenomena for only the last 170 years or so, why do you think that is?

As for the Gospel of John, you ignore the book of acts. You ignore the book of John when it clearly tells you that Jesus is not telling them to wait for a Persian mystic to come 2000 years later, but the holy spirit whom in the very end of the book he breaths upon them. Then in the book of Luke and acts we see Jesus preaching to them for forty days and they received the gift of tongues at pentacost. You have tried to bring up John Many times to argue for your prophet’s being legitimate, but everytime you refuse to go deeper. If you are maintaining that the apostles could not teach the solid food, then defend it, if you are maintaining that Jesus did not promise the spirit to his apostles and teach them the fullness of the faith in him after his are resurrection, then defend it.

Can you please advise, therefore, what it is that the Apostles could not bear at that time, which the Holy Spirit is offering after Jesus’ Ascension?

But this will only serve your ends, to avoid the actual topic. I would rather that we maintain course, wouldn’t you?

Yes, lets stay on topic

What is this discussion about? Can multiple different religions be true or can there be only one true religion? Can bahai and Christianity both be true? The bahai have said that paganism isn’t a legitimate form of worshipping God (or they would not object to the accusation that they wouldn’t mind worshipping idols if they had the chance), so there is something you admit that disqualifies paganism from being a legitimate religion.

Dear friend, again, we have been through this so much.

Before Jesus was “manifested” on earth (from heaven) what was the true religion that people followed?

In the eyes of God, was Judaism the true religion for all people in the year 20BC?

YES

So, there is more than ONE true religion, and it is dependant on what Age you live in. He manifests Himself from Age to Age. Truth comes from Him. What He says is Truth.

In the year 20 BC, the teachings of Moses were Truth.

In the year 50AD, the teachings of Jesus were Truth.

What do you conclude therefore???

What disqualifies paganism? What disqualifies the worship of the Virgin Athena?

Pagan religions are so old I cannot comment if they were ORIGINALLY from God or not. But, I know this, the only reason paganism is disqualified today, in this AGE, is because the teachings of Baha’u’llah are the only Truth in this Age. That’s it…that’s my humble opinion and humble perspective.

I mean no offence to anyone, but I lay my heart on the table, do with it as you wish dear friend

.

 

[SteveVH]

So who’s name was it okay to invoke before Jesus came? Moses? Jehovah? Yahweh? What was the name?
The Jews invoked “someone” in their prayers.

They invoked YHWH by using the name “Lord” because YHWH was too holy a name to utter.

That name became “taboo” as you put it, when the Christians started invoking Jesus and Jesus only.

Christians have never invoked the name “Jesus” only. We have always invoked the name of God which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we are free to address any of the divine Persons as there is only one God.

The definition of religion.
Again, this changed from Judaism to Christianity. What is a Christians definition of religion?
Please provide this for us dear friend

To submit ourselves completely to the Lord, Jesus Christ in faith, word and deed. Our religion is based upon a Person, not a set of rules or writings.

… this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Baha’i position. The Baha’i position is reiterated again and again throughout the Writings, and even the Universal House of Justice, in its abundant loving guidance to the world, never cease in reminding us what is important:

"…a people, increasingly aware of the Person of Baha’u’llah, is learning, through reflection on experience, consultation, and study, how to act on the truths enshrined in His Revelation, such that the widening circle of spiritual kindred is ever more closely bound together by ties of collective worship and service." - Universal House of Justice 2014

Which tells us absolutely nothing.

The Person of Baha’u’llah is the cornerstone of the Baha’i religion.

Agreed.

Now this is what you struggle with. The Person of Baha’u’llah is not the physical Person that walked the earth, it is the Eternal Logos that revealed Himself 2000years ago also (named Jesus)

And so who was the person who physically walked the earth that everyone referred to as Baha’u’llah if Baha’u’llah “is not the physical person that walked the earth”? Sorry, but that is nonsensical.

Jesus was a real Person. He did not just inhabit someone’s body. He was truly human and truly divine. Very real in both natures. He does not shape shift or possess another person’s body in order to “manifest” himself. When Jesus returns it will be the glorified Jesus who was eternally begotten by the Father and born of Mary in Bethlehem and who now sits at the right hand of the Father.

Baha’u’llah was also a real person who either had no understanding of the Person of Jesus or, God forbid, did understand and has twisted Jesus’ own nature to lower him to the status of a “manifestation”, no greater than Moses and the rest, in order to make the claim that he is the next manifestation and to put himself on a par with the only begotten Son of God. Either way, he was very, very wrong. The Baha’i seem to have no concept of “Creator” vs. “created”. Jesus is the Creator. Everyone else on the Baha’i list are creatures. Jesus is eternally greater than Baha’u’llah and Moses and Zoroaster and Muhammad and the rest.

MANIFESTED, dear friend. So the physical Jesus was one manifestation of the Eternal Logos.

Absolutely not, for the reasons stated above. Jesus is the eternal Logos

You see when we look at things with a broader, more panoramic view, we see connections, and explanations, and UNITY, and LOVE, and ONENESS. These are all of God…fruits of the Holy Spirit…

And when we look specifically and focus on the true beliefs of all the religions which you say you accept we find contradiction, error, hatred and division. One cannot simply ignore the facts and declare that all is well with the world if we just take a broader view.

Exclusion, disunity, denominational, and segregation, separation and patronisation, and condemnation are NOT of God.

Agreed. But the fact is all of the religions that you profess to incorporate into the Baha’i faith are in disunity, segregation and separation with each other. Currently we have some of the faith of Islam that have vowed to march all the way to Rome. That is reality. We do not change that fact by simply declaring that there are no contradictions between them when there clearly are. We cannot accept error for the sake of unity.

It is your choice dear friend.

Indeed, as it is yours.

Well, here I am once again after stating that I would not post on Baha’i threads any longer. A glutton for punishment, I guess. Hoping it will be more productive this time around.

Blessings.

Steve

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

In response to servant

So we Christians are at error for saying a simple prayer like “Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me?” That this is something “taboo,” why did Jesus then heal the man who called this out? He didn’t say “Lord Jesus through the father have mercy on me,” he said “Lord Jesus,” though obviously he had in his intent God the father in mind. How can you say it is taboo to pray using the word Jesus only? I find that odd. Also no one ever said “in the name of Moses” or “In the name of Muhammad” or “In the name of Ali.” This seems a function unique for Jesus, which bahai dismisses and never seem to want to bless anyone in the name of their prophet. As for the definition of religion did I not give it two posts ago? A religion in the way we use the word means a belief and or practice in certain doctrines, dogmas, creeds, practices and ways of worship. This seems to apply to what we broadly call “religion.”

Now I do not know how I have misrepresented the bahai tradition. When you are exasperated in a discussion, when you have given up will you not just wish us well with Jesus? Yes you know you have the enlightened truth but you do not want to offend or make it seem as if I had to become bahai. So what is your gospel? The gospel of Bahai? Its to create the perfect world it seems. You care more about social justice than about declaring your doctrine with any sense of definition. You don’t mind that we are ignorant, but you do mind that we are not getting along, that we are not singing around a campfire. How can you refute this? Will you say that I need your prophet for my salvation? No you won’t, in fact you will testify how good Jesus is and what he has done for the Christian. So I am already heading somewhere good, maybe not where you are going but somewhere good nonetheless.

I will hold my tongue in regards to you calling (again) your prophet Jesus. Countless times trying to get you to define what you mean show that you have no understanding of what this means yourself. So whomever your Jesus is whom your Ali is, I guess that is also unimportant or its not needed to be known.

As in regards to the use of the word manifestation in the epistle of Peter. Do you honestly think that taking one word which is prominent in your own theology and seeing it in the bible, therefore means that Peter is saying the exact same thing as you? You know this was written in greek right? That there was a church that held to a different understanding than you concerning these things for two thousand years? To be made known, is what is meant by the word manifest here. Peter does not (and you cannot possibly read this into the new testament) entertain the idea of countless divine entities (whatever divine means for you) being manifested in literal human bodies every age. This is just a silly argument and clearly a desperate attempt on your behalf to use an authoritative source which I believe and turn it against me. I am not convinced and I don’t think you are either. You approach these texts with your own suppositions, not from the perspective of the writer themselves.

I have nothing further to add in response to your first post except in this regaurd. My central point from which I had started has been diluted by your answers. What is your argument? Before we continue, before I waste my time responding to you. Are you saying Christianity and Bahai are equally valid, true, correct and right? If you cannot answer this question, if we cannot ground the discussion in this question alone without getting side tracked there will be no point in continuing this discussion. Answer this question. Clearly, do not write an elaborate sentence like:

You see when we look at things with a broader, more panoramic view, we see connections, and explanations, and UNITY, and LOVE, and ONENESS. These are all of God…fruits of the Holy Spirit…

This is meaningless baby babble which does not answer the question but only insults the person who asked it. Is this what the bahai are capable of? Is this their argument? This is why I have such contempt for the bahai religion. A radically reformed calvanist can at least be comprehended when he condemns you to hell, but the bahai religion simply makes this world and our existence meaningless in that nothing is true, nothing is false, all is one and one is all.

How can we have a discussion on even a subject like this, if you refuse to deal with us according to what you actually believe and what we actually believe? You, as far as I am concerned are just as loony toons as any other new age religion. Satan worked wonders in creating you.

 

[Servant19]

They invoked YHWH by using the name “Lord” because YHWH was too holy a name to utter.

Christians have never invoked the name “Jesus” only. We have always invoked the name of God which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we are free to address any of the divine Persons as there is only one God.

Why did the Christians stop invoking YHWH, and “only” YHWH?
Is YHWH taboo now?

To submit ourselves completely to the Lord, Jesus Christ in faith, word and deed. Our religion is based upon a Person, not a set of rules or writings.

That’s not true Steve, Jesus provided commandments. A commandment is a rule. All religions are based upon a Person, and they all have commandments.

Which tells us absolutely nothing.

It tells you that the Baha’i Faith, too, is based upon a Person. A reality that Ignatian cannot get His head around dear friend.

Agreed.

I’m glad you understand

And so who was the person who physically walked the earth that everyone referred to as Baha’u’llah if Baha’u’llah “is not the physical person that walked the earth”? Sorry, but that is nonsensical.

So who was the Person that was born from the womb of Mary?

Jesus was born from a womb. So was Baha’u’llah.
Jesus said “I am” before he was born from the womb. So did Baha’u’llah.
Jesus said He comes from heaven. So did Baha’u’llah.
What is it that is non-sensical?
What conclusions do you make from these statements, dear friend?

Jesus was a real Person.

And Baha’u’llah was not??

He did not just inhabit someone’s body. He was truly human and truly divine. Very real in both natures. He does not shape shift or possess another person’s body in order to “manifest” himself.

Again, dear friend, I think you would benefit by studying deeply the teachings of other religions on this subject. No one is talking about “shapeshifting”, I have not used this word.

When Jesus returns it will be the glorified Jesus who was eternally begotten by the Father and born of Mary in Bethlehem and who now sits at the right hand of the Father.

If you could please tell me what this means so I can be certain to recognize Him when I stand face to face with Him…

Baha’u’llah was also a real person

who either had no understanding of the Person of Jesus or, God forbid, did understand and has twisted Jesus’ own nature to lower him to the status of a “manifestation”, no greater than Moses and the rest,

Baha’u’llah does not “lower” Jesus to anything dear friend. We are dealing with different language usages, and you seem to be stuck on the fact that a different word is used, and a word which you do not like it seems, and understand it to have a demeaning nature. NO…

Baha’u’llah does recognize Jesus as being a greater Manifestation of God than Moses. Through Jesus, the Holy Spirit was released into the world. In describing the two natures of these Manifestations of God, Baha’u’llah describes the second station thus:

" The other is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-6.html

Clearly here, Baha’u’llah states that He has caused some Divine Beings to EXCEL others, and reserves a SPECIAL MENTION to Jesus.

Now, don’t think that this is demeaning, or lowering Jesus. Let us go even further, on Manifestations of God in general:

"That these divine Luminaries seem to be confined at times to specific designations and attributes, as you have observed and are now observing, is due solely to the imperfect and limited comprehension of certain minds. Otherwise, they have been at all times, and will through eternity continue to be, exalted above every praising name, and** sanctified from every descriptive attribute**. The quintessence of every name can hope for no access unto their court of holiness, and the highest and purest of all attributes can never approach their kingdom of glory. Immeasurably high are the Prophets of God exalted above the comprehension of men, who can never know them except by their own Selves. Far be it from His glory that His chosen Ones should be magnified by any other than their own persons. Glorified are they above the praise of men; exalted are they above human understanding! "

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html

The station of all of them is unknown to anyone, not one person on earth has EVER understood them, except their own Selves. Manifestation of God is an ENORMOUSLY lofty station Steve, don’t underestimate it, EVER

And Jesus has been given special distinction amongst them…

Hope I do not need to defend the Baha’i position again…

in order to make the claim that he is the next manifestation and to put himself on a par with the only begotten Son of God.

No no no…

Read the above quotes several times please…

 

[Servant19]

Either way, he was very, very wrong. The Baha’i seem to have no concept of “Creator” vs. “created”. Jesus is the Creator. Everyone else on the Baha’i list are creatures. Jesus is eternally greater than Baha’u’llah and Moses and Zoroaster and Muhammad and the rest.

These are just limited human understanding showing through Steve. In the realm of Oneness and Unity, they are all one. It is only because they all humbled themselves to give people like you and me a life, that we see distinctions, and just like the local supporters of the football teams, everyone thinks that their team is the BEST

Sad indeed…

Your choice dear friend…I have chosen, of course

I choose the purity and integrity of all the major global religions.

Absolutely not, for the reasons stated above. Jesus is the eternal Logos

Christ is the Eternal Logos, the Person born from Mary, whose name was Jesus was the Manifestation of the Eternal Logos. The physical Jesus did not exist before His birth. The eternal Christ manifested Himself through Jesus. You may wish to use the word “humbled” instead of “manifested” here…

And when we look specifically and focus on the true beliefs of all the religions which you say you accept we find contradiction, error, hatred and division. One cannot simply ignore the facts and declare that all is well with the world if we just take a broader view.

Oh I do not ignore the contradictions, errors and divisions. I see them, but they are all explained by Baha’u’llah, as either necessary progressions, and advancements (from milk to solid food) or man-made in their origins, and never attributed to the Author and Founder of the religion in the first place.

Agreed. But the fact is all of the religions that you profess to incorporate into the Baha’i faith are in disunity, segregation and separation with each other. Currently we have some of the faith of Islam that have vowed to march all the way to Rome. That is reality. We do not change that fact by simply declaring that there are no contradictions between them when there clearly are. We cannot accept error for the sake of unity.

Again, Baha’u’llah has given tremendous guidance on the reasons for these differences, to the satisfaction of millions of people who can see God behind these explanations. When the veil of stubborn allegiance to doctrinal teaching is removed, an all-encompassing oneness and liberty from all attachments save God overwhelms the soul

Indeed, as it is yours.

Well, here I am once again after stating that I would not post on Baha’i threads any longer. A glutton for punishment, I guess. Hoping it will be more productive this time around.

Blessings.

Steve

Please don’t suffer dear friend. I wish no ill upon you. You are and have always been in my prayers (for a while now) and wish blessing and love and light upon you and your loved ones…

God bless you

.