One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[eddie_too]

it seems the bahai at the least do acknowledge that their system has nothing to do with the realm of the afterlife and the spirit.

it seems that, according to the Bahia, Bahaullah’s mission was to change how this world operates and it had nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins, salvation and eternal life.

it is good that the bahi understand that it is only through faith in Jesus Christ that sins can be forgiven and eternal life received.

it is also good that the bahi understand that the Bahaullah’s mission had nothing to do with salvation but was primarily a political mission designed to produce change in the way the world’s rulers have always acted.

hopefully, the bahi will come to understand that for the Christian, whatever occurs in this world has significance only in relationship to the fates of immortal human souls. consequently, the Bahaullah’s mission of a one world government is of little significance to Christians.

 

[SteveVH]

Why did the Christians stop invoking YHWH, and “only” YHWH?
Is YHWH taboo now?

Who said that Christians stopped invoking YHWH? We invoke YHWH any time we invoke the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or any of the three divine Persons individually, or any time we invoke the name “Lord”. You are trying to make a point but I’m not quite sure what that point is.

That’s not true Steve, Jesus provided commandments. A commandment is a rule. All religions are based upon a Person, and they all have commandments.

Yes, complete submission to Jesus would certainly include obeying God’s commandments. That is part of complete submission in thought, word and deed. I thought that would go without saying.

If I told you that the key to a happy marriage is learning the meaning of sacrificial love, it seems your response would be “That’s not true, Steve. You also have to take out the garbage, do the dishes once in a while, buy her flowers and give her a kiss when you leave the house.”

So who was the Person that was born from the womb of Mary?

Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity.

Jesus was born from a womb. So was Baha’u’llah.

So was I, but I am not Jesus and neither is Baha’u’llah.

Jesus said “I am” before he was born from the womb. So did Baha’u’llah.

So what? Because he makes the claim we are to accept it as true? What if I make that claim?
Jesus, on the other hand, not only made the claim, but rose from the dead in order to prove it. Baha’u’llah is still dead in the ground. You can visit his grave.

Jesus said He comes from heaven. So did Baha’u’llah.
What is it that is non-sensical? What conclusions do you make from these statements, dear friend?

I conclude that he made claims about himself that were not true, like many before him and many after him. I have no more reason to believe him than I have reason to believe any other self-proclaimed “messiah”.

And Baha’u’llah was not??

Did I say that? I think what I said was:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

Baha’u’llah was also a real person who either had no understanding of the Person of Jesus…

Again, dear friend, I think you would benefit by studying deeply the teachings of other religions on this subject. No one is talking about “shapeshifting”, I have not used this word.

True. You use the word “manifestation” instead.

If you could please tell me what this means so I can be certain to recognize Him when I stand face to face with Him…

You will not have to wonder, Servant. God is quite capable of making his presence known without a doubt. If you are around, you will fall on your face like the rest of humanity. Some will wish that the mountains would fall on them. Some will rejoice with great gladness.

Baha’u’llah does not “lower” Jesus to anything dear friend. We are dealing with different language usages, and you seem to be stuck on the fact that a different word is used, and a word which you do not like it seems, and understand it to have a demeaning nature. NO…

To even imply that Jesus was not sufficient, that he was just one in a line of manifestations, is “lowering” Jesus, the Creator, to the same level as his creations and
the prophets who foretold his coming.

We Christians have a very simple principle that we follow. “God is God and I am not”. And neither are you, and neither is Baha’u’llah. To equate Baha’u’llah on any level with Jesus is absolute blasphemy.

Baha’u’llah does recognize Jesus as being a greater Manifestation of God than Moses. Through Jesus, the Holy Spirit was released into the world. In describing the two natures of these Manifestations of God, Baha’u’llah describes the second station thus:

Clearly here, Baha’u’llah states that He has caused some Divine Beings to EXCEL others, and reserves a SPECIAL MENTION to Jesus.

So Jesus get a “SPECIAL MENTION”. That was very big of Baha’u’llah. I rest my case.

Now, don’t think that this is demeaning, or lowering Jesus. Let us go even further, on Manifestations of God in general:

The station of all of them is unknown to anyone, not one person on earth has EVER understood them, except their own Selves. Manifestation of God is an ENORMOUSLY lofty station Steve, don’t underestimate it, EVER

And Jesus has been given special distinction amongst them…

Hope I do not need to defend the Baha’i position again…

Who is greater, Servant, Jesus Christ or Baha’u’llah?

No no no…

Read the above quotes several times please…

Thank you. I re-read the quote several times and I was in error in my conclusion. Baha’u’llah does not just put himself on a par with Jesus, he elevates himself above Jesus. This is worse than I originally thought.

 

[SteveVH]

These are just limited human understanding showing through Steve. In the realm of Oneness and Unity, they are all one.

The realm of Oneness and Unity? Please define, in plain English, what you mean by this.

To deny the contradictions present between the various “manifestations of God” that are professed by the Baha’i is in the realm of “Illusion” rather than the realm of “Oneness and Unity”

Christianity professes the risen Lord.

Islam denies the risen Lord.

Please explain how they are “One” and how they are “unified” and how this is simply due to “limited human understanding”. We were given a rational mind for a reason. Black is not white and white is not black. The Baha’i live in a world of grey, it appears.

It is only because they all humbled themselves to give people like you and me a life, that we see distinctions, and just like the local supporters of the football teams, everyone thinks that their team is the BEST

I see. Will you give me an example of a belief that you would not accept? Where do you draw the line? I mean, do you believe that some so-called “prophets” may very well be false prophets?

I choose the purity and integrity of all the major global religions.

No you don’t. You do not accept the purity and integrity of any of the major global religions. You only accept your contrived version of these religions which stand in contradiction to the professed beliefs of these religions.

You deny the very fundamentals of Christianity. You deny that Jesus rose bodily from the grave, for instance, the most fundamental belief required of a Christian. You replace it with your own version of events. That is certainly not accepting the purity and integrity of Christianity and that is just one small example.

Let me ask you something. Can you say that you accept the Nicene Creed? Do you believe that purity and integrity exist in this statement of faith?

Christ is the Eternal Logos, the Person born from Mary, whose name was Jesus was the Manifestation of the Eternal Logos. The physical Jesus did not exist before His birth. The eternal Christ manifested Himself through Jesus. You may wish to use the word “humbled” instead of “manifested” here…

Servant, a Christian has no problem in saying that God was made “manifest” in the flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ. “Manifest” simply means to be made apparent. We cannot say the same about Moses or Abraham or Zoroaster or Muhammad or Baha’u’llah. Jesus’ incarnation was a one-time event, unique in all of history. God does not continue to “become flesh” again and again through various characters throughout history. He was eternally begotten of the Father, became flesh and was born of the virgin Mary, suffered, died and rose again. God does not re-incarnate through time. He was born once and dwelt among us and remains with us through his Church, especially in the sacraments. We have no need to look elsewhere. He is with us always, until the end of time.

Oh I do not ignore the contradictions, errors and divisions. I see them, but they are all explained by Baha’u’llah, as either necessary progressions, and advancements (from milk to solid food) or man-made in their origins, and never attributed to the Author and Founder of the religion in the first place.

Contradictions, errors and divisions are necessary progressions?

Again, Baha’u’llah has given tremendous guidance on the reasons for these differences, to the satisfaction of millions of people who can see God behind these explanations.

And the Catholic Church has given tremendous guidance to billions of people who see God behind its explanations. What does that have to do with anything? China has given guidance to billions of people who see no God in anything. Truth is not dependent upon the believer for its existence.

When the veil of stubborn allegiance to doctrinal teaching is removed, an all-encompassing oneness and liberty from all attachments save God overwhelms the soul

Stubborn allegiance to doctrinal teaching?

You believe that Baha’u’llah is the second coming of Christ. That is a doctrine.

You believe that Moses and Zoroaster and Muhammad are manifestations of God. That is a doctrine.

I would hope that you have some sort of allegiance to your own statements of belief. Those are called doctrines.

 

[Servant19]

Hello again Steve,

Please remain calm. I sense you are angry and losing patience with this dialogue.

I will address some of your points here, but if I sense I am causing you angst and pain, I will no longer respond. Through the grace of God we can be more amicable. I know I am certainly trying my very best not to offend you or anyone

Who said that Christians stopped invoking YHWH? We invoke YHWH any time we invoke the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or any of the three divine Persons individually, or any time we invoke the name “Lord”. You are trying to make a point but I’m not quite sure what that point is.

Here is what Ignatian said:

I find it hard to justify that in the age of Jesus It was apparently okay to invoke Jesus’ name, as if he were someone super special, “ Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,” and then it suddenly became taboo with Islam and totally irrelevant to bahai

So I will ask you to please consider these twin perspectives:

1. Invoking Jesus’ name is not “totally irrelevant” in the Baha’i Faith. I ahave already showed you how Baha’u’llah has revered Jesus so greatly, which I sense you dismissed with disrespect, but no matter for me
2. The reason why I stated the God of Israel, YHWH, is because the same statement made by Ignatian can equally be applied to YHWH. Here it is:

I find it hard to justify that in the age of YHWH It was apparently okay to invoke YHWH’s’ name, as if he were someone super special, “ Grace and peace to you from YHWH,” and then it suddenly became… totally irrelevant to Christianity

Now I KNOW that YHWH isn’t “totally irrelevant” in Christianity, just as Jesus isn’t “totally irrelevant” to the Baha’i, however, YHWH is not invoked in Christian prayer, it is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are all foreign Person’s to Judaism. In the same manner, Jesus is not invoked in the Baha’i Faith because the distinction between Father and Son is understood fully.

Yes, complete submission to Jesus would certainly include obeying God’s commandments. That is part of complete submission in thought, word and deed. I thought that would go without saying.

If I told you that the key to a happy marriage is learning the meaning of sacrificial love, it seems your response would be “That’s not true, Steve. You also have to take out the garbage, do the dishes once in a while, buy her flowers and give her a kiss when you leave the house.”

And herein lies an important point.

What does love mean to a Catholic?
What does love mean when standing side by side with justice?

Do all Catholics know what they need to do when it comes to love and justice, and how they need to act?

And where is this love and justice when it comes to calling other peoples Beloved’s “false”?

I would appreciate your answers to these questions

.

 

[Servant19]

Contradictions, errors and divisions are necessary progressions?

In regards to this, dear friend, may I humbly offer this perspective:

When you tell a child that the tooth fairy exists, or that Father Christmas exists, you are offering them the “milk” of knowledge.

When they grow up, you offer them the “solid food” of knowledge, and you contradict yourself by saying that the tooth fairy and Father Christmas “do not” exist.

Isn’t that what good parenting is?

Why would God not be the Most Loving Father and provide small drops of His loving guidance towards mankind?

The evolutionary consciousness of mankind is exactly like the evolutionary consciousness of man.



.

 

[tonyfish58]

it seems the bahai at the least do acknowledge that their system has nothing to do with the realm of the afterlife and the spirit.

it seems that, according to the Bahia, Bahaullah’s mission was to change how this world operates and it had nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins, salvation and eternal life.

it is good that the bahi understand that it is only through faith in Jesus Christ that sins can be forgiven and eternal life received.

it is also good that the bahi understand that the Bahaullah’s mission had nothing to do with salvation but was primarily a political mission designed to produce change in the way the world’s rulers have always acted.

hopefully, the bahi will come to understand that for the Christian, whatever occurs in this world has significance only in relationship to the fates of immortal human souls. consequently, the Bahaullah’s mission of a one world government is of little significance to Christians.

Eddie too - Dear friend you are aware that your summary of Baha’i Belief is far from the Truth, thus I wonder why you would post a reply as such

No need to answer each of your observations, as all one has to do is search at these two links and the correct answers to your observations will be found -

bahai.org/

reference.bahai.org/en/



If you wish to sum the intent of the Baha’i Faith and the Message of Baha’u’llah from the point of a Christian, then all one has to do is say this prayer and ask God with all sincerity to show us the way.

Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
As it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory,

For ever and ever. Amen.

God bless and may all see God with the eye of Justice and Fairness - Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

But Jesus did claim to be God. He was asked are you the Son of God and he said I AM.

If you go back to the Old Test. and Abraham asked who am I to say you are. God said, tell them I AM.

Jesus is God in the person of the Son.

When Jesus was on trial for murder he was asked are you God, he said you said it. He never denied it.

There are 2 proofs.

The 3rd was when he asked Peter who do you say I am Peter, He said you are the Son of God. Jesus said it was not flesh and blood that revealed this but the Holy Spirit, tell no one.

Another time he said to Thomas you still do not know who I AM Thomas? Get it I AM, Thomas said no, show me the Father so I can see him, Jesus said I AM look at me when you see me you see the Father.

Those are the times I can recall for this second.

To a plant human beings being God?? That makes no sense. Plants do not have a brain, nor a soul, nor an intelligence level. Plants are not human beings. God did not make plants in his image, he made man in his image.

We know God is God of all the world living and dead because he is the Master of all. He created everything that exists.

We know that he is what he is, and who he is, by what we are. We know he created us because he is the only one who truly knows what we need, and he is the only one with the means to provide us with true happiness.

He is the only one that the older we get the more important in our lives he becomes, because in the end we live to die to this world to meet him face to face in the next, because that’s what we are created for.

The older people get, the more we see the uselessness of the material things in this world because they become boring, worthless. And the more attractive eternal life with God becomes. You hear older people say everyday as they age, I wish God would just take me home.

It is because they have lived and see all they want to see here, they want true life in God, they begin to see what this world was all about.

Hello there dear rinnie,

I pray that you are well and joyous

I understand where you are coming from. I think the place we all need to go is towards an understanding of the WORD, especially in reference to the Prologue.

Baha’is believe firmly that the Word is WITH God, but not ACTUALLY God.

What is your understanding of the Word being WITH God and at the same time the Word IS God?

They seem to be mutually excluding statements do they not?

IN regards to “plants do not have brains”, you are correct, there are a lot of ways in which a plant is deficient in its understanding of who, or what is a human being. In the same way, the same can be said of human beings. We are SOOOOOOOO infinitely deficient, that to even ascribe an attribute to God is a vain imagination, an idle fancy. Wouldn’t you say?

So how can anyone ascribe the station of God to a human being walking with them? Yes, it may all add up to this assumption, based on miracles, and the “I am” statement amongst other things, but to make this conclusion assumes that they can define God in the first place.

Who is that dares to say that God is a person that fulfills these criteria:

1. Says “I am”
2. Does some miracles
3. Resurrects from the dead
4. Heals people
   etc etc

How do we know that these are the necessary attributes of God? We cannot ascribe one correct attribute onto Him, never mind the ones listed above.

As St. Columba in one of his sermons states:

God is everywhere. He is immeasurably vast and yet everywhere he is close at hand, as he himself bears witness: I am a God close at hand, and not a God who is distant. It is not a God who is far away that we are seeking, since (if we deserve it) he is within us. For he lives in us as the soul lives in the body – if only we are healthy limbs of his, if we are dead to sin. Then indeed he lives within us, he who has said: And I will live in them and walk among them. If we are worthy for him to be in us then in truth he gives us life, makes us his living limbs. As St Paul says, In him we live and move and have our being.

Given his indescribable and incomprehensible essence, who will explore the Most High? Who can examine the depths of God? Who will take pride in knowing the infinite God who fills all things and surrounds all things, who pervades all things and transcends all things, who takes possession of all things but is not himself possessed by any thing? The infinite God whom no-one has seen as he is? Therefore let no-one try to penetrate the secrets of God, what he was, how he was, who he was. These things cannot be described, examined, explored. Simply – simply but strongly – believe that God is as God was, that God will be as God has always been, for God cannot be changed.

ucc.ie/celt/published/T201053/

How, therefore can the Apostles make such conclusions of Jesus?

God bless you

.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I sense you are angry and losing patience with this dialogue.

I myself lost patience with this thread months ago. I posted to it only to address someone who came here under false pretenses and who our gracious hosts at CAF took care of very quickly.

I wouldn’t call this thread a dialogue because it isn’t one. More of an argument. I don’t believe that God wants Baha’is to argue with Christians over differences in belief. I don’t believe it is fruitful to post threads over over 1000 messages where Baha’is try to win a debate with Christians and try to convince them to change what they believe.

Jesus said by their fruits ye shall know them. Paul went into those fruits in more detail in his letter to the Galatians:

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.”

We need to teach by example, not by interminable back-and-forth debates. The Catholics on this forum are sincere, smart, devoted lovers of Jesus Christ. That’s a wonderful thing. If Baha’is want them to respect Baha’u’llah, we must show the truth of the Baha’i teachings in our own selves. These Catholics here are fair-minded souls. When they see that Baha’is know and love Jesus Christ and are on fire with the Holy Spirit, they will give consideration to what we have to say. Not before.

I believe the Catholics here are upset because they feel the Baha’is are seeking to take away their beliefs and get them to convert to a different religion. I think some Baha’is in fact think that is our job - to convert others from Catholicism or Methodism or Buddhism or Islam or atheism to the Baha’i religion.

I would suggest that - no - that is not actually our job at all. It is instead to demonstrate that it is possible for people of different religious beliefs to love and respect one another and celebrate our different forms of worshipping the One God of all humankind. Because the Catholic Mass is beautiful. The Muslim communal prayers and rituals of Hajj are wonderful. The Jewish Shema Yisrael is glorious:

“Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.”

So, as Baha’is, let us not engage in threads where we bicker with our Catholic brothers and sisters with many hundreds and hundreds of posts, back and forth, back and forth. That does not bring forth fruit. It begins with words and ends with words, not spirit, love and life.

 

[SteveVH]

So I will ask you to please consider these twin perspectives:

1. Invoking Jesus’ name is not “totally irrelevant” in the Baha’i Faith. I ahave already showed you how Baha’u’llah has revered Jesus so greatly, which I sense you dismissed with disrespect, but no matter for me
2. The reason why I stated the God of Israel, YHWH, is because the same statement made by Ignatian can equally be applied to YHWH.

Here are some of the words to a popular Catholic song:

Yahweh, I know you are near.
Standing always at my side.
You guard me from the foe,
and you lead me in ways everlasting.

Within the past 10 years or so our Church has asked us, out of respect for our Jewish brothers and sisters, to replace the name “Yahweh” with “Lord”. It doesn’t really matter to us. We know to whom we pray. There is only one God. As I said before, we pray to YHWH any time we pray to God.

Now I KNOW that YHWH isn’t “totally irrelevant” in Christianity, just as Jesus isn’t “totally irrelevant” to the Baha’i, however, YHWH is not invoked in Christian prayer, it is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are all foreign Person’s to Judaism. In the same manner, Jesus is not invoked in the Baha’i Faith because the distinction between Father and Son is understood fully.

One big difference. We have never denied the God of the Jews. The Baha’i and Islam on the other hand have distorted who the Person of Christ really is to the point that they are not invoking the same Person. In other words, Baha’i and Islam deny the Christian Christ, rejecting his divinity and his bodily resurrection. We have never denied the Jewish “YHWH”.

And herein lies an important point.

What does love mean to a Catholic?

We simply have to turn our eyes to the crucifix to know the answer to that question.

What does love mean when standing side by side with justice?

Mercy.

Do all Catholics know what they need to do when it comes to love and justice, and how they need to act?

Since I am not “all Catholics” I cannot answer for all Catholics. My answer would be the above. By justice we are all condemned; not one of us is worthy. Because of God’s great love for us his Mercy is stronger than his Justice. We are to pattern our life after the example given to us by Christ. We are to love and be merciful. We are to forgive those who have harmed us. We are to give water to the thirsty, food to the hungry, clothes to the naked… We are to lay down our very lives for the sake of Love. Christian love is sacrificial love.

And how about the Baha’i. Do all Baha’i know what they need to do when it comes to love and justice and how they need to act?

Peace.

Steve

 

[SteveVH]

x
And where is this love and justice when it comes to calling other peoples Beloved’s “false”?

Love desires what is best for another.

If my two year old grandson wants to pick up a rattlesnake because he likes the sound it makes I will step in and do my best to prevent him from doing so even if he throws a fit.

If, while hiking in the mountains, I see someone taking the wrong trail to a particular destination I will say something to them to prevent them from going the wrong way.

There is such a thing as Truth. It is not relative to what one wishes to believe.

I believe that you are following a false prophet. So I will try to convince you, for the sake of love, to consider Christ. Your decision is your decision but I would it would not be loving to simply stand by and watch someone take the wrong path. In the end, it is your decision but I would not want to stand before Christ and have him ask me "Why did you not tell them about me? Why did you not follow my command to “teach all nations”?

Peace.

Steve

 

[SteveVH]

In regards to this, dear friend, may I humbly offer this perspective:

When you tell a child that the tooth fairy exists, or that Father Christmas exists, you are offering them the “milk” of knowledge.

No, I am offering them a fairy tale. It has nothing at all to do with knowledge.

When they grow up, you offer them the “solid food” of knowledge, and you contradict yourself by saying that the tooth fairy and Father Christmas “do not” exist.

Isn’t that what good parenting is?

So, following the logic of your analogy, are you saying that God first gives us fairly tales (falsehoods) as milk and as we mature he then contradicts himself and gives us the solid food of truth? Maybe you should re-think your analogy.

Why would God not be the Most Loving Father and provide small drops of His loving guidance towards mankind?

God continually provides loving guidance and offers us that which we are capable of grasping. His truth, however, never contradicts. Both milk and solid food must be real in order to give us nourishment. Neither are fairy tales.

The evolutionary consciousness of mankind is exactly like the evolutionary consciousness of man.

The evolutionary process of a forest is exactly the evolutionary process of a tree. Yes. What am I to take away from that statement?

 

[SteveVH]

Servant,

I took the time to address each and everyone of the points you made and the questions you had in your several posts to me. Would you please return the favor by acknowledging my responses and answering the questions I posed to you rather than simply discarding them?

That is how we have a conversation.

Thanks.

 

[tonyfish58]

Servant,

I took the time to address each and everyone of the points you made and the questions you had in your several posts to me. Would you please return the favor by acknowledging my responses and answering the questions I posed to you rather than simply discarding them?

That is how we have a conversation.

Thanks.

Steve - As you have said “I believe that you are following a false prophet. So I will try to convince you, for the sake of love, to consider Christ”. That dear friend is why the conversation rolls on and thus time according to Baha’ullah’s Guidance for us to let the subject be!

I wish you well in life and will move on from this Forum - God Bless you all - Regards Tony

P/S If you wish come and visit us some day on the Baha’i Forum, it would be good to see you there.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve - As you have said “I believe that you are following a false prophet. So I will try to convince you, for the sake of love, to consider Christ”. That dear friend is why the conversation rolls on and thus time according to Baha’ullah’s Guidance for us to let the subject be!

I wish you well in life and will move on from this Forum - God Bless you all - Regards Tony

P/S If you wish come and visit us some day on the Baha’i Forum, it would be good to see you there.

See ya!

 

[tonyfish58]

See ya!

SteveVH - Sorry dear friend, I meant thread!

I will be around on CAF from time to time as to share Fellowship to those who wish to share their Faith and Love for God.

The Invitation is for you to come and Join us on the Baha’i Forum if you wish to share your Faith and Fellowship.

God Bless your faith and Life - Regards Always Tony

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH - Sorry dear friend, I meant thread!

I will be around on CAF from time to time as to share Fellowship to those who wish to share their Faith and Love for God.

The Invitation is for you to come and Join us on the Baha’i Forum if you wish to share your Faith and Fellowship.

God Bless your faith and Life - Regards Always Tony

Thanks, Tony. Glad to know you aren’t leaving CAF. My involvement on Baha’i threads is not because I have a burning desire to delve deeply into the Baha’i faith. It is mainly to correct many of the distorted views of Christianity that appear on these threads.

I would like to put forth a very simple proposition. When we speak of other religions we should accept what they say they believe, based upon the words of their own founders, traditions and holy texts. In other words, if I want to know about Buddhism, I should defer to a Buddhist. If I want to know about Islam I should defer to a Muslim. If I want to know about Christianity I should defer to a Christian.

When a faith tradition claims to incorporate various religions as their own it should only be after they are aware of what those religions actually teach and believe. If one professes to include the Lord Jesus Christ it should be because they believe what the Church he founded actually teaches about him. Those teachings are derived directly from those who walked with him and lived with him and were taught by him and who witnessed his bodily resurrection.

There is an interesting thread on this very forum right now (“Quran and Error on Trinity”) concerning the origin of Islamic beliefs concerning Christ and the Trinity. I would highly recommend that you read the posts on that thread. It is apparent that Muhammad obtained his information from a heretical individual or group of individuals but that he was never introduced to the true faith. It appears that the Baha’i have adopted, for the most part, the Islamic view of Christianity which is not a true view at all. And, why would one ask a Muslim what Christianity teaches in the first place?

If the Baha’i accepted what Christ actually said and did they could no longer be Baha’i. One cannot accept what Christ actually said and did and continue to search for anything more. He is the Alpha and the Omega; God’s revelation of himself to mankind; God’s only Word. So to a Christian, when one invites you to look at another who claims that Christ is not the Beginning and End of the story, but only one piece of the puzzle, you can see that there are immediate problems.

I am only asking you to consider that what you believe, what you have been told about Christ may not be accurate. I am asking you to obtain your information about Christ from Christians, not from Muslims. And if you decide that you do not believe the Christian view of Christ so be it. But we cannot invent our own version of a figure such as Jesus in order to make it conveniently fit with what we wish to believe. Where is the value in that?

All I am saying is lets just be honest and respect each other to the point that we are willing to be corrected when the other points out that a certain view of the other’s religion is in error according to that religion’s teachings and tradition. Try to understand that when one belongs to a faith tradition that spans 2000 years and is then told that they have never understood their own faith and have misinterpreted their own holy texts since day one, that it has the effect of raising one’s hackles a little bit. Especially when the one’s saying this are barely a blip on the historical radar.

Glad you’ll be around for awhile.

Steve

 

[Servant19]

Servant,

I took the time to address each and everyone of the points you made and the questions you had in your several posts to me. Would you please return the favor by acknowledging my responses and answering the questions I posed to you rather than simply discarding them?

That is how we have a conversation.

Thanks.

While I agree wholeheartedly with what Matthew Light has written, Steve, in his post yesterday, I wish you and others to know that I am here to learn about Catholicism and how it correlates with the Baha’i Faith. I also wish to see what the “mindset” of some Catholics is, and why they believe what they believe.

I feel I am closer to the Catholic Faith, as a result of my time here, than I ever have been. I REGULARLY go back to my local Baha’i Community and praise Catholic teachings. In fact, it was tonight that my wife informed our Baha’i community during the 19 Day Feast that had I not been a Baha’i and I was to search, unhindered, for a religion to affiliate with, it would be Catholicism!

My intention MOST DEFINITELY is not to offend, to show disrespect (while I cringe at some of my mistakes to date, but I have evolved as a poster here since my early days, for the better I hope) and my aim is to learn about the Catholic responses to Baha’i theology.

I am FULLY aware that conversions do not happen when posting on forums and my intentions here is far far removed from any form of conversion.

So, in light of this heartfelt admission, I am happy to continue with loving and PATIENT dialogue with all. In fact, believe it or not my dialogue with IgnatianPhilo has made me into a more patient person. I do not get as riled up with him as I used to. (it genuinely comes across that he does not read any of my posts). With prayer and experience, we all advance towards our Creator!

Might I ask you Steve, which questions of yours you wish me to answer specifically? My intention is not to ignore any questions that you deem important

God bless you

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[Servant19]

Thanks, Tony. Glad to know you aren’t leaving CAF. My involvement on Baha’i threads is not because I have a burning desire to delve deeply into the Baha’i faith. It is mainly to correct many of the distorted views of Christianity that appear on these threads.

I would like to put forth a very simple proposition. When we speak of other religions we should accept what they say they believe, based upon the words of their own founders, traditions and holy texts. In other words, if I want to know about Buddhism, I should defer to a Buddhist. If I want to know about Islam I should defer to a Muslim. If I want to know about Christianity I should defer to a Christian.

When a faith tradition claims to incorporate various religions as their own it should only be after they are aware of what those religions actually teach and believe. If one professes to include the Lord Jesus Christ it should be because they believe what the Church he founded actually teaches about him. Those teachings are derived directly from those who walked with him and lived with him and were taught by him and who witnessed his bodily resurrection.

There is an interesting thread on this very forum right now (“Quran and Error on Trinity”) concerning the origin of Islamic beliefs concerning Christ and the Trinity. I would highly recommend that you read the posts on that thread. It is apparent that Muhammad obtained his information from a heretical individual or group of individuals but that he was never introduced to the true faith. It appears that the Baha’i have adopted, for the most part, the Islamic view of Christianity which is not a true view at all. And, why would one ask a Muslim what Christianity teaches in the first place?

If the Baha’i accepted what Christ actually said and did they could no longer be Baha’i. One cannot accept what Christ actually said and did and continue to search for anything more. He is the Alpha and the Omega; God’s revelation of himself to mankind; God’s only Word. So to a Christian, when one invites you to look at another who claims that Christ is not the Beginning and End of the story, but only one piece of the puzzle, you can see that there are immediate problems.

I am only asking you to consider that what you believe, what you have been told about Christ may not be accurate. I am asking you to obtain your information about Christ from Christians, not from Muslims. And if you decide that you do not believe the Christian view of Christ so be it. But we cannot invent our own version of a figure such as Jesus in order to make it conveniently fit with what we wish to believe. Where is the value in that?

All I am saying is lets just be honest and respect each other to the point that we are willing to be corrected when the other points out that a certain view of the other’s religion is in error according to that religion’s teachings and tradition. Try to understand that when one belongs to a faith tradition that spans 2000 years and is then told that they have never understood their own faith and have misinterpreted their own holy texts since day one, that it has the effect of raising one’s hackles a little bit. Especially when the one’s saying this are barely a blip on the historical radar.

Glad you’ll be around for awhile.

Steve

Whilst I agree with the logic you present here, dear friend, might I ask why you do not put Judaism into this conceptual framework?

Does Christianity, when it comes to Judaism, “accept what they say they believe, based upon the words of their own founders, traditions and holy texts”?

If so, what is your response to the following websites on Jewish belief?

shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/17-03.html
whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation3.html
ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm

Thankyou dear friend

.

 

[SteveVH]

Whilst I agree with the logic you present here, dear friend, might I ask why you do not put Judaism into this conceptual framework?

Does Christianity, when it comes to Judaism, “accept what they say they believe, based upon the words of their own founders, traditions and holy texts”?

If so, what is your response to the following websites on Jewish belief?

shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/17-03.html
whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation3.html
ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm

Thankyou dear friend

.

Servant, I was only giving a few examples to make a larger point. Yes, if you want to know what the Jews believe then by all means ask a Jew. I accept that the Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah.

But before we get off on another tangent please respond to my previous posts. You asked questions and I answered them. What is your response to those answers? In particular see Post Nos. 176, 177 & 178

Thanks.

Steve

 

[Servant19]

Servant, I was only giving a few examples to make a larger point. Yes, if you want to know what the Jews believe then by all means ask a Jew. I accept that the Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah.

But before we get off on another tangent please respond to my previous posts. You asked questions and I answered them. What is your response to those answers? In particular see Post Nos. 176, 177 & 178

Thanks.

Steve

Thankyou Steve for your acknowledgement and honesty dear friend

All Baha’is ask is that our Faith and teachings be given the same honesty from previous, older religions, as they themselves give to religions older than themselves.

For example, when you ask that we should treat all religions according to the teachings and interpretations “they” have created through Tradition, then it is only fair that you should be doing the same.
So, if Christianity has the right to interpret Jewish Tradition according to its own conclusions, then it is only “intellectually honest” to allow others to do the same with Christianity.
You KNOW Jesus is the Messiah. But from a Jewish perspective, you have done nothing but “distort” and “convolute” the purity of Jewish Tradition and Scripture.

To tell Baha’is that they are simply mistaken in all things Christian related, is to deny the reality that according to Jews, Christianity is mistaken in all things Jewish related.

Please bear this in mind, dear friend, when I address the points you wish to talk about, which I will endeavour to do very shortly

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