One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[JamesCarr]

Hi Eddie,

Baha’u’llah has no more rejected Jesus and His teachings any more than Jesus has rejected Moses and His teachings.

“The Law is death”

Can you show me anywhere that Baha’u’llah’s rejection of Jesus is more severe than Jesus’ rejection of Moses?

Let us FIRST AND FOREMOST be fair in our judgement.

.

Hello Servant19

The claims of Jesus rejecting Moses is untrue & unfounded.

Matthew 5:17-18
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished…

It’s right to say that the Law is death. And thus in verse 17, He did not come to reject Moses & the Prophets, or the abolish the Law but rather, to fulfil & perfect it.

James 1:25-26
25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. 26If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless…

Yes you read it right; To Perfect It.

In verse 18; “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished…”

It meant His teachings are absolute & eternal, unless one is suggesting that Heaven and earth has already passed away. Either that, or one is plain saying that Jesus lied.

Matthew 10:24
24"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.

• Who else can be more worthy or be a better Teacher than the One who is the Messiah, the Son of Man & the Son of God, Who came to save us before the End of Times?
• Who else can come to further perfect the already perfect Law or Teachings from Jesus Himself?

Some may argue about the authenticity of Jesus being the First Cause & Last End of All Things, being the Messiah, the Anointed One and the Son of God to counter the arguments here just so they can say there’s another after Jesus, so:

Mark 12:35-37
35And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36"David himself said in the Holy Spirit, ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET.”’ 37"David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; so in what sense is He his son?”

A father will never call his son a Lord, even if he is reduced to begging on the streets. It is therefore true that Jesus comes from David’s lineage but David recognizes Jesus’ Divinity and calls Him Lord, among so many other passages in the Bible.

If I am to cross a river by hopping on rocks, it’s always advisable to hop on the bigger ones available. Jesus is the Acme and the Epitome of the revelation of God to mankind, thus it is easier for one to trust in Him knowing He will never lie.

Matthew 24:23-25
…23"Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25"Behold, I have told you in advance.

Unless our Holy Father can confirm the teachings of Baha’ullah as being in accord with the Church, one can never be too careful.

There’s really very little reason to dispute about all the teeny weenie details about our scriptures versus others when He made it clear that His teachings is absolute & eternal, unless one is not at all convinced about Jesus Himself. If such is the case, one is merely contradicting him/herself while telling others that they acknowledge Christ as the Messiah.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian, answer me this please

Knowing Jesus as well as you do with all the detailed reading into His life and what His expectations were for Christians, how would Jesus act in the following example.

A scuffle breaks out between the Christians and the Jews. The Jews slaughter huge numbers of Christians leaving the wives and the children of these Christian men alone and without hope of survival. The ONLY way for these children to survive with their mothers is to marry the mothers and thereby taking in their children as family. There are no other options available.

Would Jesus let these people just die, or take them in, marry the mothers (without necessarily consummating the marriage) and ensure their welfare is met?

.

I have no idea what this has to do with polygamy. But I will tell you what Jesus would do, he wouldn’t marry any of them but he would have them follow him and serve him and his ministry by serving the apostles.

But there are other options for the Jews, they don’t have to marry the Christian women at all to support them for the murder of their families.

So tell me, do you consider bahai the one true religion? Or could you confess Nicene Christianity as being equally true and valid?

 

[Servant19]

I have no idea what this has to do with polygamy. But I will tell you what Jesus would do, he wouldn’t marry any of them but he would have them follow him and serve him and his ministry by serving the apostles.

That wasn’t an option dear friend. The option was to marry Jesus or be slaughtered, and if the child was a girl, probably buried alive.

Which would Jesus choose?

.

 

[Servant19]

Hello Servant19

The claims of Jesus rejecting Moses is untrue & unfounded.

Matthew 5:17-18
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished…

It’s right to say that the Law is death. And thus in verse 17, He did not come to reject Moses & the Prophets, or the abolish the Law but rather, to fulfil & perfect it.

James 1:25-26
25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. 26If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless…

Yes you read it right; To Perfect It.

In verse 18; “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished…”

It meant His teachings are absolute & eternal, unless one is suggesting that Heaven and earth has already passed away. Either that, or one is plain saying that Jesus lied.

Matthew 10:24
24"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.

• Who else can be more worthy or be a better Teacher than the One who is the Messiah, the Son of Man & the Son of God, Who came to save us before the End of Times?
• Who else can come to further perfect the already perfect Law or Teachings from Jesus Himself?

Some may argue about the authenticity of Jesus being the First Cause & Last End of All Things, being the Messiah, the Anointed One and the Son of God to counter the arguments here just so they can say there’s another after Jesus, so:

Mark 12:35-37
35And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36"David himself said in the Holy Spirit, ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET.”’ 37"David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; so in what sense is He his son?”

A father will never call his son a Lord, even if he is reduced to begging on the streets. It is therefore true that Jesus comes from David’s lineage but David recognizes Jesus’ Divinity and calls Him Lord, among so many other passages in the Bible.

If I am to cross a river by hopping on rocks, it’s always advisable to hop on the bigger ones available. Jesus is the Acme and the Epitome of the revelation of God to mankind, thus it is easier for one to trust in Him knowing He will never lie.

Matthew 24:23-25
…23"Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25"Behold, I have told you in advance.

Unless our Holy Father can confirm the teachings of Baha’ullah as being in accord with the Church, one can never be too careful.

There’s really very little reason to dispute about all the teeny weenie details about our scriptures versus others when He made it clear that His teachings is absolute & eternal, unless one is not at all convinced about Jesus Himself. If such is the case, one is merely contradicting him/herself while telling others that they acknowledge Christ as the Messiah.

Thankyou for this dear friend James. I appreciate your efforts in pointing these wonderful passages out to me. I agree with you FULLY. Jesus came to fulfill the teachings of Moses

I therefore ask, how do Baha’u’llah’s teachings NOT fulfill the teachings of Jesus?

God bless you, brother in Christ!



.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

That wasn’t an option dear friend. The option was to marry Jesus or be slaughtered, and if the child was a girl, probably buried alive.

Which would Jesus choose?

.

Jesus wouldn’t be bound by such a choice now would he? He already went against social norms of the time by having women not married to him serve him in his ministry. So I reject being forced into one option. But tell me this, why did Muhammad absolutely have to marry this six year old girl. What benefit for the cause of Sharia was there?

 

[tonyfish58]

See that’s the point, it isn’t just “To your own religion and my mine to my religion.”

You to yours dear friend!
Me to mine!
as to what is divine,
I judge you not, put my trust in God
and pray yours is mine

TBS July 30 2014

That almost makes me think you are a subjectivity who cares neither about salvation or truth. Yet you have admitted you think (though you refuse to use the word) Christianity, especially Nicene Christianity a corruption or deviation.

Why engage in these debates if this how you answer everything in the end? It convinces no one.

Dear IgnatianPhilo - There is a lot more meaning in those thoughts that I put to prose!

Just remember it is the Oneness of Gods Word that I believe! Mine is Inclusive of Yours

Is yours inclusive of Mine

If it is not that is what I pray for you

With words there is always meaning that one has to want to look for!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Thankyou for this dear friend James. I appreciate your efforts in pointing these wonderful passages out to me. I agree with you FULLY. Jesus came to fulfill the teachings of Moses

I therefore ask, how do Baha’u’llah’s teachings NOT fulfill the teachings of Jesus?

God bless you, brother in Christ!



.

Because there was nothing lacking in the teachings of Christ to be fulfilled. What more is there to be done? Do we need another to die once for all? Do we need another to which every knee will bow? Do we need another to be the first fruits of the Resurrection from the dead? Do we need another name under heaven to confess to in order to be saved? You argue Christ said the comforter would come and yet you have been shown countless times that the comforter was the Holy Spirit which came to the apostles on Pentecost.

When asked how the revelation of Christ was lacking the only example bahai have given is the bahai teaching of one world government and Utopia. The Christians consider that an impossibility and something which only happen the Resurrection of the dead happens and when Jesus has really returned. Not fake impersonators who offered a different gospel.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dear IgnatianPhilo - There is a lot more meaning in those thoughts that I put to prose!

Just remember it is the Oneness of Gods Word that I believe! Mine is Inclusive of Yours

Is yours inclusive of Mine

If it is not that is what I pray for you

With words there is always meaning that one has to want to look for!

God Bless and Regards Tony

Your oneness involves a God who embraces contradiction. Can you confess the Nicene creed? Can you confess that your prophet does absolutely nothing for you which Christ has not already done? No you cannot. So your belief system is not inclusive of mine.

You reject the Christian teaching. Thats all there is to it.

 

[Servant19]

Jesus wouldn’t be bound by such a choice now would he? He already went against social norms of the time by having women not married to him serve him in his ministry. So I reject being forced into one option. But tell me this, why did Muhammad absolutely have to marry this six year old girl. What benefit for the cause of Sharia was there?

I know Jesus wasn’t bound by such a choice dear friend, I’m asking you to IMAGINE Jesus in such a situation. What “would” He do? Marry the mother or let them both be slaughtered?
Muhammad was forced into that one option. Muhammad married them, either to Himself or to His trusted ones. What would Jesus do?

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I know Jesus wasn’t bound by such a choice dear friend, I’m asking you to IMAGINE Jesus in such a situation. What “would” He do? Marry the mother or let them both be slaughtered?

.

I’m telling you Jesus is not bound to your hypothetical. But lets grant it for the sake of the argument. Christ says his follower must pick up the cross and walk. Christ would deman the same devotion of a such a woman in travail. I don’t believe Jesus would marry that woman and I don’t believe that woman would necessarily die, but if she did it was for the glory of God and Christ.

Now tell me, what was the political reason for marrying Aisha at six and consummating the marriage at Nine.

 

[Servant19]

What benefit for the cause of Sharia was there?

Sharia is the beginnings of societal salvation…

Which Baha’u’llah fulfilled.

The unity of the human race will irresistibly take place through the wellspring of grace showered upon mankind by Baha’u’llah

.

 

[Servant19]

I’m telling you Jesus is not bound to your hypothetical. But lets grant it for the sake of the argument. Christ says his follower must pick up the cross and walk. Christ would deman the same devotion of a such a woman in travail. I don’t believe Jesus would marry that woman and I don’t believe that woman would necessarily die, but if she did it was for the glory of God and Christ.

Now tell me, what was the political reason for marrying Aisha at six and consummating the marriage at Nine.

Ok so basically you are agreeing that Jesus would marry them and ask them to carry the cross. Which is what Muhammad did. Muhammad DID that but taught monogamy.

Aisha?? There are Hadiths which agree with you, there are Hadiths that disagree with you. Either way, the lack of consummation is indicative of the purpose behind the marriage, but because of conflicting Hadiths we will never really know, so the whole thing should be thrown out.



.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Sharia is the beginnings of societal salvation…

Which Baha’u’llah fulfilled.

The unity of the human race will irresistibly take place through the wellspring of grace showered upon mankind by Baha’u’llah

.

Shariah as you believe it to be right? Not as traditional muslims have understood it and practiced it since the beginning right? Something tells me you hold to a more politically correct version of sharia law which doesn’t involve the execution of those who leave islam, despite it being in the sources you rely on for the life of your prophet.

But tell me, you bahai embrace spiritualism, that is the idea that the spiritual world is greater than the physical world which will be left behind. It seems to me a contradiction to want to build up this world and expect Utopia to happen. And your vision for mankind is Utopian despite your denials.

Jesus said not to be attached to this world and Christians have tried to live this out, some successfully and some not so successfully. Our citizenship is not to earth but to the kingdom of heaven. We however do not reject the earth as something we leave behind forever, something to be forgotten when pass. We believe it was glorified in the Resurrection of Christ and will be fully glorified in the universal Resurrection.

So what is better, the spiritual promises of Christ along with the physical promises of Christ of a renewed creation? ONe not susceptible to death forever, one wherein the spirit of God so permeates the world? Or your prophet’s vision of a physicalist Utopia, wherein God is still invisible and death reigns?

The answer should be obvious.

 

[Servant19]

Shariah as you believe it to be right? Not as traditional muslims have understood it and practiced it since the beginning right? Something tells me you hold to a more politically correct version of sharia law which doesn’t involve the execution of those who leave islam, despite it being in the sources you rely on for the life of your prophet.

But tell me, you bahai embrace spiritualism, that is the idea that the spiritual world is greater than the physical world which will be left behind. It seems to me a contradiction to want to build up this world and expect Utopia to happen. And your vision for mankind is Utopian despite your denials.

Jesus said not to be attached to this world and Christians have tried to live this out, some successfully and some not so successfully. Our citizenship is not to earth but to the kingdom of heaven. We however do not reject the earth as something we leave behind forever, something to be forgotten when pass. We believe it was glorified in the Resurrection of Christ and will be fully glorified in the universal Resurrection.

So what is better, the spiritual promises of Christ along with the physical promises of Christ of a renewed creation? ONe not susceptible to death forever, one wherein the spirit of God so permeates the world? Or your prophet’s vision of a physicalist Utopia, wherein God is still invisible and death reigns?

The answer should be obvious.

I keep telling you but you don’t believe me dear friend. Creation has been renewed.

Some will be taken, some will be left behind

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ok so basically you are agreeing that Jesus would marry them and ask them to carry the cross. Which is what Muhammad did. Muhammad DID that but taught monogamy.

Aisha?? There are Hadiths which agree with you, there are Hadiths that disagree with you. Either way, the lack of consummation is indicative of the purpose behind the marriage, but because of conflicting Hadiths we will never really know, so the whole thing should be thrown out.



.

Do not twist my words. I said clearly Christ would not marry them. But here you bring up different traditions. How young was Aisha? Fifteen? You must think that is lawful practice right? For a fifty year old man to do such a thing? So what was the political reason and benefit to Muhammad for marrying such a girl? You say he didn’t satiate lust but all the sources would agree she was very young. He didn’t have the consummate right? Do you approve of such a union?

Hmm?

You must because Muhammad was the perfect manifestation of God not susceptible to human needs right? Also you never addressed Polygamy properly. You said no man can be just to his wives. Yet Abraham in casting off one of his wives at the behest of his first and favored wife had God approve of this action. Therefore we have an example int he prophets of how to treat your wives. Since you believe Abraham was a perfect manifestation of God who could of no wrong and he is an example for all, how do you then say no one can treat his wives justly? The Aisha point was only secondary.

Obviously to God men can do whatever they want with their wives. Even beat them, according to the quran.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I keep telling you but you don’t believe me dear friend. Creation has been renewed.

Some will be taken, some will be left behind

.

Creation has been renewed how exactly? There is still everything wrong with us, there is still death, disease, sin and violence. The Utopia you promise looks farther away than ever with the fruit of Muhammad being the current day Isis…

What did Christ promise us? Did he promise future generations utopia? No, he promised death to his followers, he promised suffering to his followers, that they should not be content with their possessions in this world but store up treasures in heaven instead. Christ did not abandon the world however, he came to show that this world can be redeemed but not through human effort, only God through his Resurrection can do that.

What is the greater promise? The promise of Christ which says that we will be glorified in body and soul, where there will be no more tears and no more longing? Or the promise in your prophet who promises physical Utopia and the spirit world where we will go on to more and more greater worlds in a never ending game of catching God?

Jesus is greater by far.

 

[Servant19]

Do not twist my words. I said clearly Christ would not marry them. But here you bring up different traditions. How young was Aisha? Fifteen? You must think that is lawful practice right? For a fifty year old man to do such a thing? So what was the political reason and benefit to Muhammad for marrying such a girl? You say he didn’t satiate lust but all the sources would agree she was very young. He didn’t have the consummate right? Do you approve of such a union?

Hmm?

You must because Muhammad was the perfect manifestation of God not susceptible to human needs right? Also you never addressed Polygamy properly. You said no man can be just to his wives. Yet Abraham in casting off one of his wives at the behest of his first and favored wife had God approve of this action. Therefore we have an example int he prophets of how to treat your wives. Since you believe Abraham was a perfect manifestation of God who could of no wrong and he is an example for all, how do you then say no one can treat his wives justly? The Aisha point was only secondary.

Obviously to God men can do whatever they want with their wives. Even beat them, according to the quran.

I think all sources agree that the purpose was not lust. Outside of that I do not know for sure the purpose behind this union. Whatever the purpose, I have no doubt that Muhammad had legitimate and godly reasons. The rest is speculation and just hot air…

It is not for me to approve or disapprove something that cannot be substantiated historically. How dare I !!

In regards to being fully just to your wives, this is the domain of sinful humans and their inability to practice full justice. I don’t see why that is difficult to understand.

Man is sinful. He cannot be fully just. Therefore according to Islam, monogamy is taught.

You really take the stuff written in the Old Testament as taking place literally don’t you. Show me one piece of evidence that what Abraham did was factually true…



.

 

[Servant19]

Creation has been renewed how exactly? There is still everything wrong with us, there is still death, disease, sin and violence. The Utopia you promise looks farther away than ever with the fruit of Muhammad being the current day Isis…

What did Christ promise us? Did he promise future generations utopia? No, he promised death to his followers, he promised suffering to his followers, that they should not be content with their possessions in this world but store up treasures in heaven instead. Christ did not abandon the world however, he came to show that this world can be redeemed but not through human effort, only God through his Resurrection can do that.

What is the greater promise? The promise of Christ which says that we will be glorified in body and soul, where there will be no more tears and no more longing? Or the promise in your prophet who promises physical Utopia and the spirit world where we will go on to more and more greater worlds in a never ending game of catching God?

Jesus is greater by far.

Is this just one big competition here? Is Jesus one NBA team and Baha’u’llah another rival team??

Spiritual death, sin, spiritual disease and violence has been overcome. Didn’t Paul also indicate this to be the case in the “Last Days” of Jesus’ Dispensation?

The utopia is found in the global Baha’i community. United, working towards a common purpose and extending its embrace of God’s loving kindness to a wider and wider population. ALL doing the Will of the Father, tirelessly

What a wonderful Age we live in and to be a contributing part in this new earth!



.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I think all sources agree that the purpose was not lust. Outside of that I do not know for sure the purpose behind this union. Whatever the purpose, I have no doubt that Muhammad had legitimate and godly reasons. The rest is speculation and just hot air…

It is not for me to approve or disapprove something that cannot be substantiated historically. How dare I !!

In regards to being fully just to your wives, this is the domain of sinful humans and their inability to practice full justice. I don’t see why that is difficult to understand.

Man is sinful. He cannot be fully just. Therefore according to Islam, monogamy is taught.

You really take the stuff written in the Old Testament as taking place literally don’t you. Show me one piece of evidence that what Abraham did was factually true…



.

All the sources agree it was not lust? It was not human desire? Where does it say that? Again what was the purpose of expecting a child from a such a young woman? It could have resulted in her death at such a time.

But its interesting you say polygamy is not a good practice because man cannot be fully just in any sense. Therefore we should not get married at all because no man is fully just to his own wife even if she is the only one. Couples fight and get into arguments and abuse each other sometimes, therefore by your logic monogamy is just as bad. Would you not rather follow the example of Abraham and have two wives and once the favored one gets jealous cast out the other wife with her child and say he has no inheritance? Again, this is your perfect manifestation Abraham. You cannot however justify what Abraham did, but you cannot accuse him of being imperfect because he was God. Right? God can do whatever he wants as a man right?

But now you go on to deny the events said of Abraham. What do you believe about Abraham then if you deny genesis? Is it all metaphor and symbol? Were the Jews and the Muslims as scholars might say today merely the product of pagan races and not descendants of their father Abraham? What did Abraham do the warrent him being callled a prophet? If you accept one narrative in genesis why not the rest?

Your digging yourself a hole which is very deep and of which you cannot get out. In your attempt to get away from what Abraham did you deny he did it, and then you have no account of Abraham at all. Its the same thing you do with Jesus, whenever he does something which you Don’t like, that event must be just a metaphor, because it goes against my preconceived notions.

But either way, you have a problem. Christianity proclaimed monogamy, and God reversed it. He did not like the trajectory, we needed to go back apparently to the old testament with Muhammad and then to the new with Abdul? What was the point of going back temporarily and setting human civilization backwards? Or do you think the middle is better off having followed Islam instead of say the Christian west which has more or less followed the enlightenment? Granted the west isn’t perfect but at least its not the middle east.

 

[Servant19]

All the sources agree it was not lust? It was not human desire? Where does it say that?

Well, all sources state that the marriage was not consumed for some years. A lustful man can find better avenues to fulfil his desires than having to wait several years.

I think its fair to say that this is just smear campaigning…



.