One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[IgnatianPhilo]

Is this just one big competition here? Is Jesus one NBA team and Baha’u’llah another rival team??

Spiritual death, sin, spiritual disease and violence has been overcome. Didn’t Paul also indicate this to be the case in the “Last Days” of Jesus’ Dispensation?

The utopia is found in the global Baha’i community. United, working towards a common purpose and extending its embrace of God’s loving kindness to a wider and wider population. ALL doing the Will of the Father, tirelessly

What a wonderful Age we live in and to be a contributing part in this new earth!



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This isn’t a competition, this is spiritual warfare, a fight between two different and contradictory revelations. One is called the gospel, the other is called Utopian. One promises persecution in the hopes of ultimate glory in a deadened world made new again. One promises to make this deadened world not glorified or great, but instead in and amongst death forever the Utopian state will emerge.

Have you been to Africa? Are you witnessing what we are seeing in Iraq? The establishment of a Caliphate? The antisemitism in Europe which is reminiscent of of the Nazis? The increasing secularization of the west leading to an atheism and moral relativism which worships at the altar of abortion, homosexuality and licentiousness? This is not a world becoming perfect, this is a world growing more dead every single year. Not denying good is done, not denying we can’t try to for a time to get certain parts of the world on course, but this world will never be perfect by natural human means.

 

[tonyfish58]

Creation has been renewed how exactly? There is still everything wrong with us, there is still death, disease, sin and violence. The Utopia you promise looks farther away than ever with the fruit of Muhammad being the current day Isis…

What did Christ promise us? Did he promise future generations utopia? No, he promised death to his followers, he promised suffering to his followers, that they should not be content with their possessions in this world but store up treasures in heaven instead. Christ did not abandon the world however, he came to show that this world can be redeemed but not through human effort, only God through his Resurrection can do that.

What is the greater promise? The promise of Christ which says that we will be glorified in body and soul, where there will be no more tears and no more longing? Or the promise in your prophet who promises physical Utopia and the spirit world where we will go on to more and more greater worlds in a never ending game of catching God?

Jesus is greater by far.

O Thou kind Lord! Thou hast created all humanity from the same stock. Thou hast decreed that all shall belong to the same household. In Thy Holy Presence they are all Thy servants, and all mankind are sheltered beneath Thy Tabernacle; all have gathered together at Thy Table of Bounty; all are illumined through the light of Thy Providence.

O God! Thou art kind to all, Thou hast provided for all, dost shelter all, conferrest life upon all. Thou hast endowed each and all with talents and faculties, and all are submerged in the Ocean of Thy Mercy.

O Thou kind Lord! Unite all. Let the religions agree and make the nations one, so that they may see each other as one family and the whole earth as one home. May they all live together in perfect harmony.

O God! Raise aloft the banner of the oneness of mankind.

O God! Establish the Most Great Peace.

Cement Thou, O God, the hearts together.

O Thou kind Father, God! Gladden our hearts through the fragrance of Thy love. Brighten our eyes through the Light of Thy Guidance. Delight our ears with the melody of Thy Word, and shelter us all in the Stronghold of Thy Providence.

Thou art the Mighty and Powerful, Thou art the Forgiving and Thou art the One Who overlooketh the shortcomings of all mankind.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá

God Bless all - Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Well, all sources state that the marriage was not consumed for some years. A lustful man can find better avenues to fulfil his desires than having to wait several years.

I think its fair to say that this is just smear campaigning…



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No i don’t think so. How young was she? Fifteen at the time of consummation? Thats why I see the Islamic apologists argue. No one disputes she was young but then again i suggest there are still problems with that.

Why did Muhammad have to marry her? Why did Muhammad have to marry his adopted son’s wife? What was the political justification for that I wonder?

 

[Servant19]

But its interesting you say polygamy is not a good practice because man cannot be fully just in any sense. Therefore we should not get married at all because no man is fully just to his own wife even if she is the only one. Couples fight and get into arguments and abuse each other sometimes, therefore by your logic monogamy is just as bad. Would you not rather follow the example of Abraham and have two wives and once the favored one gets jealous cast out the other wife with her child and say he has no inheritance? Again, this is your perfect manifestation Abraham. You cannot however justify what Abraham did, but you cannot accuse him of being imperfect because he was God. Right? God can do whatever he wants as a man right?

I think you misunderstand the meaning of being just in the Arabic language

The word used here is “ensaaf” which means more like “fair-mindedness”…

Again, you take things to be historical which show now evidence of historicity. Can you give me any evidence that Abraham even had one wife?



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[IgnatianPhilo]

O Thou kind Lord! Thou hast created all humanity from the same stock. Thou hast decreed that all shall belong to the same household. In Thy Holy Presence they are all Thy servants, and all mankind are sheltered beneath Thy Tabernacle; all have gathered together at Thy Table of Bounty; all are illumined through the light of Thy Providence.

O God! Thou art kind to all, Thou hast provided for all, dost shelter all, conferrest life upon all. Thou hast endowed each and all with talents and faculties, and all are submerged in the Ocean of Thy Mercy.

O Thou kind Lord! Unite all. Let the religions agree and make the nations one, so that they may see each other as one family and the whole earth as one home. May they all live together in perfect harmony.

O God! Raise aloft the banner of the oneness of mankind.

O God! Establish the Most Great Peace.

Cement Thou, O God, the hearts together.

O Thou kind Father, God! Gladden our hearts through the fragrance of Thy love. Brighten our eyes through the Light of Thy Guidance. Delight our ears with the melody of Thy Word, and shelter us all in the Stronghold of Thy Providence.

Thou art the Mighty and Powerful, Thou art the Forgiving and Thou art the One Who overlooketh the shortcomings of all mankind.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá

God Bless all - Regards Tony

Tony, I really would encourage you to respond with substance. I could spend all day quoting patristics and the bible and etc and you would rightly accuse me of not dealing with anything you say. Tony, if you have nothing to add to the conversation, then perhaps you ought not enter the conversation. Follow your religion and don’t debate, unlike servant. But if you must debate, please do so with substance.

 

[Servant19]

This isn’t a competition, this is spiritual warfare, a fight between two different and contradictory revelations. One is called the gospel, the other is called Utopian. One promises persecution in the hopes of ultimate glory in a deadened world made new again. One promises to make this deadened world not glorified or great, but instead in and amongst death forever the Utopian state will emerge.

Have you been to Africa? Are you witnessing what we are seeing in Iraq? The establishment of a Caliphate? The antisemitism in Europe which is reminiscent of of the Nazis? The increasing secularization of the west leading to an atheism and moral relativism which worships at the altar of abortion, homosexuality and licentiousness? This is not a world becoming perfect, this is a world growing more dead every single year. Not denying good is done, not denying we can’t try to for a time to get certain parts of the world on course, but this world will never be perfect by natural human means.

You think that in the world of the spirit there is war???

The Bible is very much utopian. Does it not teach a new heaven and a new earth? A utopian one at that, where the wolf lives with the lamb and the leopard lie down with the goat…thats not utopian?

I am witnessing all that is going on in the old world, in Africa and Middle East, old world, old world, old world.

Everyone is invited to the new world, where going back to the old world is IMPOSSIBLE.

The new heaven and the new earth. Its impossible to go back. Some will enter this arena, some will be left behind

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[Servant19]

BY THE WAY dear Ignatian

I am not debating…

I am trying hard to show you a glimpse of the light…

I hope you see it, its glorious!!



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[IgnatianPhilo]

I think you misunderstand the meaning of being just in the Arabic language

The word used here is “ensaaf” which means more like “fair-mindedness”…

Again, you take things to be historical which show now evidence of historicity. Can you give me any evidence that Abraham even had one wife?



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Can you show me Abraham even existed? No you cannot. Historically speaking we are bound strictly to genesis, which I fully admit. I fully admit genesis to have little speaking for it historically, in that purely scholarly sense in which we cannot verify its accounts by other accounts of the time.

THe difference I thought is that we both accepted who Abraham was. That the bible was inspired scripture (so bahai keep saying) that it’s record is trustworthy. I trust the old testament on the basis of Christ whom I believe has more historical credibility than any other figure in ancient history.

If you want to assume the mantle of secularist and atheist bible scholar, do so and i will not contradict you. My basis for believing in Abraham is Jesus whom I believe can be defended. But what is your basis for believing in Abraham at all? Since you have begun the historical inquiry, show me Abraham existed, bahai scholar. Show me what we can know about his life? I suspect you rely on the bible as well, though you just casually dismis it whenever you don’t like it’s contents.

Do you have a better source than genesis? A better source than the scripture you say is inspired? And if you maintain this part is purely allegorical or mystical, how do you within the the text separate the literal narrative from the real narrative? Do you believe the arabs to be descendants of Abraham? Muhammad to be a descended of Abraham and consequently your own prophet a descendant of Abraham?

Hmmm? Don’t play games, don’t change your worldview when it is convenient.

 

[Servant19]

No i don’t think so. How young was she? Fifteen at the time of consummation? Thats why I see the Islamic apologists argue. No one disputes she was young but then again i suggest there are still problems with that.

Why did Muhammad have to marry her? Why did Muhammad have to marry his adopted son’s wife? What was the political justification for that I wonder?

You don’t think lustful man can consummate a marriage to a six year old?

Watch the news more dear friend…

Lust was not the reason…Why he married her is not determined, but lust (for the final time) is CLEARLY not the reason

God bless you dear friend

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[Servant19]

Can you show me Abraham even existed? No you cannot. Historically speaking we are bound strictly to genesis, which I fully admit. I fully admit genesis to have little speaking for it historically, in that purely scholarly sense in which we cannot verify its accounts by other accounts of the time.

THe difference I thought is that we both accepted who Abraham was. That the bible was inspired scripture (so bahai keep saying) that it’s record is trustworthy. I trust the old testament on the basis of Christ whom I believe has more historical credibility than any other figure in ancient history.

If you want to assume the mantle of secularist and atheist bible scholar, do so and i will not contradict you. My basis for believing in Abraham is Jesus whom I believe can be defended. But what is your basis for believing in Abraham at all? Since you have begun the historical inquiry, show me Abraham existed, bahai scholar. Show me what we can know about his life? I suspect you rely on the bible as well, though you just casually dismis it whenever you don’t like it’s contents.

Do you have a better source than genesis? A better source than the scripture you say is inspired? And if you maintain this part is purely allegorical or mystical, how do you within the the text separate the literal narrative from the real narrative? Do you believe the arabs to be descendants of Abraham? Muhammad to be a descended of Abraham and consequently your own prophet a descendant of Abraham?

Hmmm? Don’t play games, don’t change your worldview when it is convenient.

No Baha’is recognise the SPIRITUAL TRUTHS contained within the Bible, not all its claims to historical truth…

I know Abraham existed, (and even that I cannot prove, and either way it makes no difference to Baha’u’llah and His Person, which can be undeniably proven) but what happened in His life is anyones guess…Jesus mentions Him, so does Baha’u’llah but to claim His marital status as true to disprove what it says in the Quran is a stretch…

Please remember. Inspired means it contains spiritual value, not necessarily historical value

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[IgnatianPhilo]

You think that in the world of the spirit there is war???

The Bible is very much utopian. Does it not teach a new heaven and a new earth? A utopian one at that, where the wolf lives with the lamb and the leopard lie down with the goat…thats not utopian?

I am witnessing all that is going on in the old world, in Africa and Middle East, old world, old world, old world.

Everyone is invited to the new world, where going back to the old world is IMPOSSIBLE.

The new heaven and the new earth. Its impossible to go back. Some will enter this arena, some will be left behind

.

Yes I do think there is war against the spirit and that the spirit aids those who are in war against their enemies. Not in a literal battle but in apologetics and in defending what is right the spirit help us fight against our enemies. Our enemies are many including our own bodies. God helped Elijah in his spiritual warefare and God helped the first deacon in defending himself against the Jews.

Now is the bible Utopian? What is Utopia? I use the word to refer to the purely natural dream of man, to see mankind united in one global society wherein there is a central governing authority determining for us our lives. Ever read Brave new world? That is a vision of Utopia, one without any divine influence. What is the bahai vision? The bahai vision includes death, disease, and human sin. The christian vision maintains God will permeate everything where there will be none of these things. There is a difference between the eartly utopia and the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Servant19]

Yes I do think there is war against the spirit and that the spirit aids those who are in war against their enemies. Not in a literal battle but in apologetics and in defending what is right the spirit help us fight against our enemies. Our enemies are many including our own bodies. God helped Elijah in his spiritual warefare and God helped the first deacon in defending himself against the Jews.

Now is the bible Utopian? What is Utopia? I use the word to refer to the purely natural dream of man, to see mankind united in one global society wherein there is a central governing authority determining for us our lives. Ever read Brave new world? That is a vision of Utopia, one without any divine influence. What is the bahai vision? The bahai vision includes death, disease, and human sin. The christian vision maintains God will permeate everything where there will be none of these things. There is a difference between the eartly utopia and the kingdom of heaven.

So the wolf and the lamb lying down together is a literal truth?

My friend, this is symbolic signifying the unification of the diverse cultures, nations and tribes of the world.

What else can it mean?

What Baha’u’llah has created is not man-made utopia. The proof is in the new heaven and the new earth which is visible in the Baha’i community globally.

In this community, reverting to the habits of the old heaven and old earth is IMPOSSIBLE.

Hope that is clear

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[IgnatianPhilo]

No Baha’is recognise the SPIRITUAL TRUTHS contained within the Bible, not all its claims to historical truth…

I know Abraham existed, (and even that I cannot prove, and either way it makes no difference to Baha’u’llah and His Person, which can be undeniably proven) but what happened in His life is anyones guess…Jesus mentions Him, so does Baha’u’llah but to claim His marital status as true to disprove what it says in the Quran is a stretch…

Please remember. Inspired means it contains spiritual value, not necessarily historical value

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Im not disproving the quran by mentioning what abraham did. I am using the account of abraham to qualify what it means to be just to ones wife. You have a problem by your own argumentation that you cannot be just to even one wife so why get married at all? That was your initial justification for being against Polygamy. Yet Muhammad was clearly just between his wives and he favored some above others. You can even beat your wife in the quran if she is disobedient.

I have no idea how you argue no one can be just to their many wives and expect to get away with it. Your just deflecting the problem that there is no trajectory within sacred history and revelation for bahai. Just arbitrary rules assigned to each generation. You have no guarantee that God will not embrace homosexuality next time or even incest. None whatsoever. Your God Has no regard for such a consistency and neither should you.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

So the wolf and the lamb lying down together is a literal truth?

My friend, this is symbolic signifying the unification of the diverse cultures, nations and tribes of the world.

What else can it mean?

What Baha’u’llah has created is not man-made utopia. The proof is in the new heaven and the new earth which is visible in the Baha’i community globally.

In this community, reverting to the habits of the old heaven and old earth is IMPOSSIBLE.

Hope that is clear

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The bahai community is not heaven. You die, you suffer, you sin. You do not fulfill what Christ promises, that there will no more tears or suffering.

 

[JamesCarr]

Thankyou for this dear friend James. I appreciate your efforts in pointing these wonderful passages out to me. I agree with you FULLY. Jesus came to fulfill the teachings of Moses

I therefore ask, how do Baha’u’llah’s teachings NOT fulfill the teachings of Jesus?

God bless you, brother in Christ!



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Hello Servant19

I think the question(s) to be answered more accurately to help educate us about Baha’ullah are:

1. Did Baha’ullah teach that Christians are condemned without salvation if they do not recieve Baha’ullah?
2. If no, do Christians lose out in their glory if & when they do become victorious & attain entry into heaven as compared to those who receive Baha’ullah (lets say Baha’ullah is truly from God)?
3. How many Christ(s) are there according to Baha"ullah?

These are the 3 questions that I am really curious about and will greatly appreciate your time in answering them in detail so that I may understand them better.

Thank you.

 

[SteveVH]

No, incorrect dear friend.

I am not interpreting, I am giving you the actual words to be read at face value. I assume the words mean what they mean in standard English.

Which would be your method of interpretation. You have qualified the parameters of your interpretation: “actual words to be read at face value…” while assuming “the words mean what they mean in standard English”. This would be a huge mistake. You do not take into account Hebrew and Aramaic culture and idioms and various modes of Rabbinic expression which cannot be directly translated into English. One cannot read the Scriptures as one reads a newspaper or a scientific journal.

But the fact is, you don’t even do what you say you do. Your interpretation of Jesus coming in the clouds is that his coming will be hidden, not that he will return in glory. That he will be seen as lightning is seen from the east to the west is some veiled reference to Baha’u’llah coming from the east. In other words, you interpret the Scriptures to fit the Baha’i paradigm and certainly do not take the words at face value.

When Catholic teaching expresses that the Divine Essence is unknowable and beyond the reach of human knowledge and then says that the Divine Essence is found in bodily form in Jesus Christ, it is a manifest contradiction. And not a contradiction in interpretation, its a contradiction in the manifest meaning of the words.

Christ’s divinity, the divine essence, was hidden in his humanity. Why is this contradictory? How many brain surgeons have ever seen a thought? How many heart surgeons have ever seen a soul? Does that mean that men do not have thoughts or souls? Christ demonstrated his divinity through his many miracles and most especially through his bodily resurrection evidenced by his appearance to hundreds of witnesses.

A body, is by definition, knowable. Yet it is proclaimed that it is unknowable in Catholic teaching.

Where have we ever said that a body is not knowable? It is Christ’s invisible divine essence that is unknowable even though it resides within his Person, which includes a human body.

Hope that is clear now

Not at all.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH - I think we have done the discussion thing re beliefs and we know the side of the fence we are talking from, in the end why can we not just share the Love!

God Bless and Regards Tony

We should always share the love, Tony, but I believe this forum to be a vehicle for seeking truth as well. Part of love is to impart the truth and to help each other walk the straight and narrow path.

I have never questioned your sincerity. I just believe you have been led away from the path.

My sincerest hope is that God will bless you abundantly.

Peace. my friend.

Steve

 

[eddie_too]

my questions, tony’s answers:

why should a person believe that Bahaullah was sent to mankind by its Creator?

IMHO

Dear eddie too - To fulfill ones belief in Christ and His Covenant with Mankind?

*my added response: not sure what you mean by “to fulfill ones belief in Christ”. *

what is lost to human beings who do not believe Bahaullah was sent by their Creator?

IMHO

eddie too - The fullness of Christs Love.

my added response: why do you think I do not have the fullness of Christ’s love already? how do you imagine that Christ could love me more than He did on the Cross?

what is missing in the life and teachings of Jesus and His Church that is needed by human beings today?

eddie too - This has been answered many times - Other aspects are these - The Oneness of Gods Religions - The knowledge that God is only Knowable through His Manifestations. Outside this knowledge, God is beyond all understanding even to the Manifestations Themselves.

my added response: if God has more than one religion, how can they be one religion? also, I reject completely that God is beyond all understanding. I am not sure where you get that idea.

 

[SteveVH]

Is it safe to say we’ve all had enough, finally?

 

[Servant19]

Is it safe to say we’ve all had enough, finally?

Hahaha

I must say I’m still musing over your comment that I made a mistake in reading the words of Catholic teaching in English!

I guess we are all doomed

God bless you dear friend

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