One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[Servant19]

Thank you, Servant, I am familiar with this. Of course the Universal (Catholic) Church is concerned about justice in the entire world. Our Church exists throughout the entire world and is the largest provider of relief from suffering that has ever existed. Our Church is walking the talk.

Yes dear friend, I acknowledge and again cherish, (stated again and again, I praise the Church) the work the Church has done and is doing within the confines of its ability under Jesus’ Revelation.

What Baha’u’llah has come is to offer absolute authoritative Divine Guidance on the things the Church is currently understanding as the needs for an ill and desperate world.

The teachings of the Church provided in “TOWARDS REFORMING THE INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL AND MONETARY SYSTEMS IN THE CONTEXT OF GLOBAL PUBLIC AUTHORITY” is a glimpse and an attept to reconcile what is needed in the world and what the Revelation of Jesus Christ could not tell us at His time, because we could not bear it then

Baha’u’llah is simply stating that this is where the Church wants to go…HERE IT IS…

(I hope and pray we can now see some progress in this regard)

My entire point, however, is that even as immersed in acts of mercy and charity in this world as the Church is, its primary purpose for existing is for the salvation of our souls; the transformation of the individual into a new creation.

Absolutely yes
I agree wholeheartedly. Do you not wonder therefore why the Church is releasing lengthy documents and teachings on global governance and the like?

And it is only then that justice will be meted out across the globe. We can’t get the cart before the horse. A global authority cannot transform a man’s interior life. But a man transformed by Christ can transform the world around him.

Which is EXACTLY what I have been trying to convey to you all these years. Baha’is and Christians must COLLABORATE, dear friend

Christianity (especially Catholicism) is an expert in creating individuals who are experts in “driving the cart”…the “perfect horse” (to use your good analogy)

It is clear that Catholic teaching is posing questions as to how to utilize these beautiful horses for global governance and creating a new earth.

The Baha’i Faith is at the frontiers of learning in this regard. What direction to take when we have these millions of beautiful horses, ready to serve…to create a new earth which aligns perfectly with the new heaven…

This book, I have no doubt, will make you a better Catholic
bahai-library.com/pdf/l/lample_creating_new_mind.pdf

The Baha’i end game seems to focus on this world. The Catholic end game is eternal life as adopted sons and daughters of our Lord.

Dear friend, please remain focussed on what you have learnt about the Baha’i Faith. The two-fold moral purpose of all human beings on earth, according to Baha’i teachings is to ensure our personal eternal salvation AND to create an ever-advancing civilization thereby ensuring the salvation of humanity as a whole.

The social teachings of the Catholic Church seem to reflect this also. I can provide further documentation if needed

And they are flawed, fallen human beings just like the rest of us. I have no issue at all with the desire of the Baha’i to create a just and merciful world. But it cannot be accomplished by well meaning human beings. It can’t happen without first being interiorly transformed by Christ.

Please dear friend, I beg you to read the book I linked above. It will give you insights about the Baha’i purpose you are very clearly not understanding. Pretty please with sugar on top

Peace.

Steve

Peace and good will to you and your loved ones dear Steve

.

 

[JamesCarr]

Hello James, I will try and answer the questions for you below. I hope you had a wonderful weekend

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesCarr

1. Prove me his infallibility as he had claimed and how & what way is he infallible.

The proof is in the fruits of His Spirit dear friend. There is one, united Baha’i global community, bound by an unbreakable Covenant. Many have tried to cause schisms, none have succeeded, and never will. The Divine Guidance is clear and unequivocal, the Baha’i world community knows who is the Supreme Authority to turn to throughout the future centuries, and that is the Universal House of Justice.

Hello dear friend, yes I had a most fruitful weekend trying to research both religions here. Tiring as it is, new things are being learned about both sides, especially Catholicism. And I hope you enjoyed yours too.

I disagree with the above as anything to do with infallibility but I will humor you for awhile more on this. Perhaps you have not considered that the Baha’i faith has not able to keep most of their converts & losing members in great numbers every year?
**
"Bahais claim that there are 1,75,000 Baha’is in US. But the official census says something else. The official census of United States says that “there were 28,000 Baha’is in US in 1990, then in 2001 it figure went up to 84,000 (entry by troops?) then again in 2008 it dropped down to 49000 (exodus by troops!)”.

Source: bahaicensusindia.blogspot.sg/**

The fact Baha’i false claims about its “followers growing in numbers” as if its true is being totally absurd. Perhaps the term “growing in numbers but decreasing in followers” is more accurate.
**
“The gross exaggeration of world Baha’i membership numbers is meant to placate all those who have been promised entry by troops for the past 80 years. The gross exaggeration of the number of actual Baha’is in India goes hand in hand with the inclusion of tens of thousands of people who signed declaration cards in North America in the past 20 to 40 years and that was it; they never truly became Baha’is they simply put their name on a card like you would on a Zellers card and never followed it up. Also the many others who signed declaration cards but who have become inactive and no long believe in the Baha’i faith or have actually joined other religious communities but have never taken the time to resign and have been addressing unknown for many years.”

• Larry Rowe**

Will you like me to show you government statistics as well which is totally in contrast to the Baha’i claims of its “exponential growth”, my friend? Government statistics don’t lie, dear friend.

Anyways.

Secondly, which is the greater miracle? Walking on water or causing a woman to dedicate her entire life to the service of the poor and needy in His name?

God gave man free will to choose. God will never impose anyone to dedicate her entire life to His Name if she does not desire it. Free will, my friend. And that too does not constitute a miracle, but of sacrifice & hope. I think you probably are tempted to state again that the martyrdom of so many Baha’is lend credence to the Baha’i faith… Much as one is emotionally inclined to do so, I believe this is insufficient to constitute proof of supernatural reality.

To be continue in the next post…

 

[JamesCarr]

Quote:
3. Show me proof of his predictions that came true, since Moses and Jesus also prophesied and it came true.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%…%AD_prophecies

If you want even more prophetic words that have come true or are coming true then please read this:
spirittop.weebly.com/uploads/…redictions.pdf

1. Baha’u’llah claimed that the Bab had predicted his coming. The Bab had declared that his own revelation as the “door” to the Imam Mahdi was not final, and that he would, at some future time be succeeded by “Him whom God shall manifest”. At the same time the Bab had laid it down that the time of this promised deliverer’s arrival was known only to God, that no one could falsely claim to be him. The Bab also indicated that the next manifestation would appear suddenly and unexpectedly.

After the execution of the Bab, a number of important Babis put forth extravagant claims of divinity. This included Sayyid Basir-i Hindi of Multan. He was one of several Babi leaders of the time who claimed participation in divine manifestations, similar in some ways to those claimed by Sufis or mystics. Another such person was Sayyid 'Uluvv who had made claims to being God incarnate. Thus during those turbulent times, anyone could claim he was “Him whom God shall manifest.” Thus Baha’u’llah’s appearance as “Him whom God shall manifest” was neither sudden nor unexpected.

1. Baha’u’llah predicted that Sultan 'Abdul Aziz, the Grand Vizer, Ali Pasha and the associate, Fu’ad Pasha would have their lives taken from them as punishment for exiling him to the prison city of Akka. It is not uncommon for people to curse their enemies. I believe the likelihood of the curse made by Baha’u’llah coming to pass by chance is not extremely remote. What is more interesting is not the prediction coming to pass but the very fact that the curse was made at all. One of the central tenets of Baha’i Faith is belief of common brotherhood of man and that people of the Baha’i should be shining examples to all mankind. I quote form his Writings on the Civilizing of Human Character:

“O peoples of the world! Forsake all evil, hold fast that which is good. Strive to be shining examples unto all mankind, and true reminders of the virtues of God amidst men.”

This appears to be contrary to the making of curses. I believe that is is an example of hypocrisy and is totally inconsistent of a man who claims he is the “Manifestation of God.” and the epitome of the virtues of God.

1. Baha’u’llah predicted that a democracy of the people would rule one day in Iran. If this prediction was made before democratic government appeared on earth, it would have been exceptional. However, Baha’u’llah was looking at the fledgling democracy in England when he made his prediction. Hence the likelihood of this prediction occurring by chance is not extremely remote. In summary, the likelihood of these three predictions concerning Baha’u’llah occurring by chance are not extremely remote and therefore are not sufficient to invoke a supernatural causation. Performing deeds which are impossible in the natural to occur are known as miracles. Miracles constitute evidence of supernatural reality. I am unable to find examples of miraculous acts performed by Baha’u’llah.
   Thus there is insufficient evidence for me to be convinced that Baha’u’llah’s theory of “Progressive Revelation” represents supernatural reality.

If I examine Baha’u’llah‘s claim that the prophets Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Imam Mahdi and Baha’u’llah are Manifestations of God, I find something interesting. None of them claimed to be Manifestations of God except Jesus and Baha’u’llah. Allow me to compare them.

Baha’u’llah had three predictions to his credit. He performed no miracles. Like any other man, Baha’u’llah died and was buried. There was hardly anything supernatural about him. The only way that Baha’u’llah can be explained by Baha’i for not rising from the dead is not to acknowledge the resurrection of Jesus bodily, which you did earlier, in which I intend to counter later.

On the other hand, Jesus had thirty-four predictions about him. He was recorded to have performed no less than thirty-two miracles. He died, was buried but miraculously rose from the dead. I am definitely more inclined to believe Jesus had evidence of supernatural reality.

To continue in the next post…

 

[JamesCarr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesCarr View Post

Also, I need answers below clearly:

Do Bahai believe Jesus is God,

NO

Explain this passage please.

John 10:33

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Thank you dear friend. Not physical (just as He didn’t ascend into physical clouds) but glorified, spiritual body, as clearly stated by Paul in Corinthians. (and His ascension into spiritual clouds, representing the spiritual heaven).

And these too. What do they mean to you?

John 20:26-27

26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Luke 24:36-37

36While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have. When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.”

 

[Servant19]

Hello dear friend, yes I had a most fruitful weekend trying to research both religions here. Tiring as it is, new things are being learned about both sides, especially Catholicism. And I hope you enjoyed yours too.

I disagree with the above as anything to do with infallibility but I will humor you for awhile more on this. Perhaps you have not considered that the Baha’i faith has not able to keep most of their converts & losing members in great numbers every year?
**
"Bahais claim that there are 1,75,000 Baha’is in US. But the official census says something else. The official census of United States says that “there were 28,000 Baha’is in US in 1990, then in 2001 it figure went up to 84,000 (entry by troops?) then again in 2008 it dropped down to 49000 (exodus by troops!)”. **

Source: bahaicensusindia.blogspot.sg/

The fact Baha’i false claims about its “followers growing in numbers” as if its true is being totally absurd. Perhaps the term “growing in numbers but decreasing in followers” is more accurate.
**
“The gross exaggeration of world Baha’i membership numbers is meant to placate all those who have been promised entry by troops for the past 80 years. The gross exaggeration of the number of actual Baha’is in India goes hand in hand with the inclusion of tens of thousands of people who signed declaration cards in North America in the past 20 to 40 years and that was it; they never truly became Baha’is they simply put their name on a card like you would on a Zellers card and never followed it up. Also the many others who signed declaration cards but who have become inactive and no long believe in the Baha’i faith or have actually joined other religious communities but have never taken the time to resign and have been addressing unknown for many years.”

• Larry Rowe**

Will you like me to show you government statistics as well which is totally in contrast to the Baha’i claims of its “exponential growth”, my friend? Government statistics don’t lie, dear friend.

Anyways.

God gave man free will to choose. God will never impose anyone to dedicate her entire life to His Name if she does not desire it. Free will, my friend. And that too does not constitute a miracle, but of sacrifice & hope. I think you probably are tempted to state again that the martyrdom of so many Baha’is lend credence to the Baha’i faith… Much as one is emotionally inclined to do so, I believe this is insufficient to constitute proof of supernatural reality.

To be continue in the next post…

Firstly, when I say the fruits of the Spirit is the global Baha’i community, that was not a reflection of the numbers. Christianity only had 12 adherents at one stage and the fruit was in the quality of that miniature community. Maybe there is only one Baha’i in Singapore, go and visit them and test the spirit for yourself.

Dear O deary me James. You have been going to “those” websites again

Maybe I should learn about the Catholic Faith here:
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/god_hates.htm

Is this what you would want me to do? Shall I read about Catholicism from here: (and quote from it?)
catholic-enough-for-hell.blogspot.com.au/search/label/church

James, please don’t bother polluting my soul with such rubbish!

I don’t learn about Catholicism from these sites and if you notice I quote DIRECTLY from the Vatican and the Bible.

If you’ve been partaking of the Eucharist, I expect you to do the same. Intellectual honesty is part of the grace you partake in isn’t it?

God bless you

.

 

[Servant19]

1. Baha’u’llah claimed that the Bab had predicted his coming. The Bab had declared that his own revelation as the “door” to the Imam Mahdi was not final, and that he would, at some future time be succeeded by “Him whom God shall manifest”. At the same time the Bab had laid it down that the time of this promised deliverer’s arrival was known only to God, that no one could falsely claim to be him. The Bab also indicated that the next manifestation would appear suddenly and unexpectedly.

After the execution of the Bab, a number of important Babis put forth extravagant claims of divinity. This included Sayyid Basir-i Hindi of Multan. He was one of several Babi leaders of the time who claimed participation in divine manifestations, similar in some ways to those claimed by Sufis or mystics. Another such person was Sayyid 'Uluvv who had made claims to being God incarnate. Thus during those turbulent times, anyone could claim he was “Him whom God shall manifest.” Thus Baha’u’llah’s appearance as “Him whom God shall manifest” was neither sudden nor unexpected.

1. Baha’u’llah predicted that Sultan 'Abdul Aziz, the Grand Vizer, Ali Pasha and the associate, Fu’ad Pasha would have their lives taken from them as punishment for exiling him to the prison city of Akka. It is not uncommon for people to curse their enemies. I believe the likelihood of the curse made by Baha’u’llah coming to pass by chance is not extremely remote. What is more interesting is not the prediction coming to pass but the very fact that the curse was made at all. One of the central tenets of Baha’i Faith is belief of common brotherhood of man and that people of the Baha’i should be shining examples to all mankind. I quote form his Writings on the Civilizing of Human Character:

“O peoples of the world! Forsake all evil, hold fast that which is good. Strive to be shining examples unto all mankind, and true reminders of the virtues of God amidst men.”

This appears to be contrary to the making of curses. I believe that is is an example of hypocrisy and is totally inconsistent of a man who claims he is the “Manifestation of God.” and the epitome of the virtues of God.

1. Baha’u’llah predicted that a democracy of the people would rule one day in Iran. If this prediction was made before democratic government appeared on earth, it would have been exceptional. However, Baha’u’llah was looking at the fledgling democracy in England when he made his prediction. Hence the likelihood of this prediction occurring by chance is not extremely remote. In summary, the likelihood of these three predictions concerning Baha’u’llah occurring by chance are not extremely remote and therefore are not sufficient to invoke a supernatural causation. Performing deeds which are impossible in the natural to occur are known as miracles. Miracles constitute evidence of supernatural reality. I am unable to find examples of miraculous acts performed by Baha’u’llah.
   Thus there is insufficient evidence for me to be convinced that Baha’u’llah’s theory of “Progressive Revelation” represents supernatural reality.

If I examine Baha’u’llah‘s claim that the prophets Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Imam Mahdi and Baha’u’llah are Manifestations of God, I find something interesting. None of them claimed to be Manifestations of God except Jesus and Baha’u’llah. Allow me to compare them.

Baha’u’llah had three predictions to his credit. He performed no miracles. Like any other man, Baha’u’llah died and was buried. There was hardly anything supernatural about him. The only way that Baha’u’llah can be explained by Baha’i for not rising from the dead is not to acknowledge the resurrection of Jesus bodily, which you did earlier, in which I intend to counter later.

On the other hand, Jesus had thirty-four predictions about him. He was recorded to have performed no less than thirty-two miracles. He died, was buried but miraculously rose from the dead. I am definitely more inclined to believe Jesus had evidence of supernatural reality.

To continue in the next post…

Oh dear Lord, please assist this loved one to show constancy and servitude towards your Merciful Reality.

This entire post is from another anti-Baha’i website:

peace-of-mind.net/baha%27i_belief.htm

With honesty and humility, I will pray for you dear friend

God bless you…

.

 

[JamesCarr]

If you’ve been partaking of the Eucharist, I expect you to do the same. Intellectual honesty is part of the grace you partake in isn’t it?

Don’t EVEN go there about the Holy Eucharist and what you expect from me through the Eucharist, buddy . I WILL defend it if you going to level the Eucharist with a sinner like me. There’s no need to be rude now.

Even if those are anti-Baha’i sites, correct the information there instead of throwing a fit and avoid it altogether. You can give me anti-Catholic links and I’d be happy to correct you on those. If one is to learn about another religion, shouldn’t we learn it from within and without as well? I give you information from what I know and read from, and you correct me where I am wrong, and likewise I do the same, that’s a dialogue and that’s just exactly what you are asking for, no?

This entire discussion is not in vain, Servant. I learn things from both faiths. Who knows? Perhaps you have planted a seed in me about the Baha’i faith. Trust me when I tell you, I spend the nights considering what if Baha’i is not false.

Intellectual honesty you say, Servant? Directly from the Bible you say, dear friend? Sure. Lets start with the passages I quoted you IN the Bible, I want to know how Baha’i understand it. Don’t avoid those. Lets now be intellectually honest here then, starting with you dear friend:

---

Also, I need answers below clearly:

Do Bahai believe Jesus is God,

Your answer: NO

Explain this passage then please.

John 10:33

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Thank you dear friend. Not physical (just as He didn’t ascend into physical clouds) but glorified, spiritual body, as clearly stated by Paul in Corinthians. (and His ascension into spiritual clouds, representing the spiritual heaven).

And these too. What do they mean to you?

John 20:26-27

26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Luke 24:36-37

36While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have. When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.”

 

[peace_at_last]

Let us again be honest here dear friend.

When Christians make up the rules which Jews made, then we have a problem. No Jewish document ever states that the Messiah will come, fulfill half of the prophecies, then goes away for millenia and will return to fulfill the rest. Not one Jewish prophecy states this. But you still believe in Jesus, right?

In like manner, no Christian or Islamic prophecy about the Mahdi/Return of Jesus Christ states that these events will come about, but the PERIOD for the establishment of universal peace will be gradually built. For Baha’u’llah and the Bab are still alive, and their work is not finished here on earth.

If Jesus can provide His own interpretations to prove His Messiah-ship, then the Bab and Baha’u’llah too can provide their own interpretations to prove their respective stations

“…and verily, Allah knows best”

.

Fine. I’ll put aside everything related to Christianity and Judaism about the Messiah. There are many arguments and counter arguments to the subject you have brought up about them, but that is not my concern. It is what matters to Christians and Jews and you can discuss it with the Christians here, not me who is a Muslim.

I will only speak from a Shia Islamic position. The Bab, the forerunner to Baha’u’llah, fulfilled nothing about the Mahdi of Islam. Do you have an argument against that?

 

[Servant19]

Don’t EVEN go there about the Holy Eucharist and what you expect from me through the Eucharist, buddy . I WILL defend it if you going to level the Eucharist with a sinner like me. There’s no need to be rude now.

My intention was not to offend you or the Catholic Faith, dear friend, and so I apologise. I do think though that now you know how offensive some of your words against the Baha’i Faith is, especially when lifted from websites that are the epitome of “evil” and you are here advertising it as fact. You wouldn’t do that with Catholicism. You think I have not bitten my tongue enough dear friend? Or wished to use the smilie? … trust me, I am focussing on your godly attributes and try to ignore the rest (especially some written with red writing )

Even if those are anti-Baha’i sites, correct the information there instead of throwing a fit and avoid it altogether. You can give me anti-Catholic links and I’d be happy to correct you on those. If one is to learn about another religion, shouldn’t we learn it from within and without as well? I give you information from what I know and read from, and you correct me where I am wrong, and likewise I do the same, that’s a dialogue and that’s just exactly what you are asking for, no?

No dear friend, when one is dialoguing about the taste of chocolate, one does not go and taste dog excrement in order to appreciate the chocolate.

GO AND TASTE THE CHOCOLATE

The Vatican website is the chocolate. Let me humbly offer you the Baha’i chocolate:

www.reference.bahai.org
www.bahaiteachings.org
www.info.bahai.org
www.bahai-library.com
www.bahai.org

Everything else is NOT CHOCOLATE…you choose what you want to eat
I will not respond to anything other than chocolate

This entire discussion is not in vain, Servant. I learn things from both faiths. Who knows? Perhaps you have planted a seed in me about the Baha’i faith. Trust me when I tell you, I spend the nights considering what if Baha’i is not false.

I love you whether you ponder these things or not. It is not for me that you do this. The Bab stated that Baha’u’llah was the Person who sent Jesus into the world, and denial of Baha’u’llah is denial of Jesus, so it is in your best interests to consider these things…

Intellectual honesty you say, Servant? Directly from the Bible you say, dear friend? Sure. Lets start with the passages I quoted you IN the Bible, I want to know how Baha’i understand it. Don’t avoid those. Lets now be intellectually honest here then, starting with you dear friend:

Explain this passage then please.

John 10:33

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

And these too. What do they mean to you?

John 20:26-27

26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Luke 24:36-37

36While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have. When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.”

Dear friend, this is a complicated matter. The spiritual Truth that Jesus was resurrected spiritually was a critical juncture in Judeo-Christian transition.

I understand the points you are asserting here where you have highlighted and correctly so. I personally see the Letters of Paul as a more pure and authentic representation of early Christian understanding of the resurrection.

I feel the Gospels were written as a means of sharing spiritual Truths, rather than historical facts.

I also cannot see an event where the saints were all resurrected and roamed around the Roman cities at that time would not be recorded by Roman historians, or other non-Christian sources.

God bless you


.

 

[SteveVH]

Dear friend, this is a complicated matter. The spiritual Truth that Jesus was resurrected spiritually was a critical juncture in Judeo-Christian transition.

I understand the points you are asserting here where you have highlighted and correctly so. I personally see the Letters of Paul as a more pure and authentic representation of early Christian understanding of the resurrection.

I feel the Gospels were written as a means of sharing spiritual Truths, rather than historical facts.

I also cannot see an event where the saints were all resurrected and roamed around the Roman cities at that time would not be recorded by Roman historians, or other non-Christian sources.

God bless you


.

"TOUCH ME AND SEE; A GHOST DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES, AS YOU SEE I HAVE."

Servant, exactly what “spiritual Truth” do you believe is being conveyed here?

Not only does Jesus specifically say that he has a body, he invites Thomas to actually touch it because he, like you, did not believe it.

This is what happens when you embrace doctrines and beliefs that conflict. Jesus’ own words contradict your preconceived notion that he rose only spiritually. You are trying to juggle both Christian and Islamic doctrines at the same time and it simply doesn’t work unless you taint one or the other (or both) with your own Baha’i spin. I hope you will at east admit this to yourself even if you can’t bear to admit it publicly on this forum. Why would Jesus say such a thing? Please answer this question and this question only, for the time being.

Thank you.

Peace

Steve

 

[SteveVH]

Yes dear friend, I acknowledge and again cherish, (stated again and again, I praise the Church) the work the Church has done and is doing within the confines of its ability under Jesus’ Revelation.

What Baha’u’llah has come is to offer absolute authoritative Divine Guidance on the things the Church is currently understanding as the needs for an ill and desperate world.

Well, that is back handed compliment if I’ve ever heard one. “…within the confines of its ability”?

Jesus had all authority, in heaven and on earth (MT 28:18). He gave his own authority to his Church: “Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (MT 18:18)

The Church was not lacking in any authority and certainly not in need of a greater authority than Christ himself.

The teachings of the Church provided in “TOWARDS REFORMING THE INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL AND MONETARY SYSTEMS IN THE CONTEXT OF GLOBAL PUBLIC AUTHORITY” is a glimpse and an attept to reconcile what is needed in the world and what the Revelation of Jesus Christ could not tell us at His time, because we could not bear it then

I still don’t understand what you believe we could not bear. Justice and peace throughout the world? The kingdom of God on earth? Your own reference to the Catholic position belies your statement. Not only can the Church bear it, but it has thought it through in great detail and has done its part for 2000 years to make it a reality, a reality that will not be fulfilled until all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and are transformed into new creations. The great commission was to “Teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. This must be accomplished before anything else.

Baha’u’llah is simply stating that this is where the Church wants to go…HERE IT IS…

(I hope and pray we can now see some progress in this regard)

What do you mean “Here it is…”? How much progress have the Baha’i made toward this goal when less than 1% of the world have adopted the Baha’i philosophy?

I agree wholeheartedly. Do you not wonder therefore why the Church is releasing lengthy documents and teachings on global governance and the like?

You act as if this is something new. This has been the purpose of the Church on earth since its inception; to spread the kingdom of God over the face of the earth.

This book, I have no doubt, will make you a better Catholic
bahai-library.com/pdf/l/lample_creating_new_mind.pdf

.

Out of respect for you, Servant,I will take a look.

 

[eddie_too]

I find the bahai beliefs to be similar to the Mormons in some ways.

for example, both insist on changing the time-honored interpretations of the Bible to fit their ideas. they do this even though they KNOW that their interpretations have been rejected by the authorized custodians of the Christian faith ever since the Lord’s Ascension.

it is almost ludicrous to read their imaginative interpretations, many that were rejected quite specifically by the apostles and their successors in the first century after the Lord’s Ascension. it becomes even more ludicrous when we realize that these folks’, both Mormons and bahai, have no idea why those who have for two thousand years taught the same things as the apostles find these erroneous interpretations preposterous and not possibly or remotely derived from interactions with the Holy Spirit.

 

[eddie_too]

I agree dear brother
from servant19:

So where do you think my Faith in Baha’u’llah comes from?

To come here and share the love of Baha’u’llah takes tremendous courage and Faith. Where did this Faith come from?

.

Dear brother eddie too

Would you mind answering the questions I posed to you dear brother? (Quoted above)

Thankyou dear one!

God bless you!

I cannot know where your faith in Bahaullah comes from. maybe it comes from your ignorance of the apostolic teachings or maybe from your ignorance of the knowledge and principles behind the study of Sacred Scriptures or maybe from some deep seated hostility toward someone who harmed you while describing themselves as followers of Jesus Christ or maybe from the culture in which you were raised or maybe in your desire to be among the minority. I guess the possible reasons are many.

I do not agree that making posts on a website demands courage. what could a person possibly be afraid of when posting anonymously on the internet?

as for faith, faith is of little value unless it is in the divine mysteries disclosed to mankind through the teachings, the life, the passion and death, the resurrection and the ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ.

the people who followed jim jones to Guyana and david Koresh to Waco and brigham young to Utah all had faith. how do you consider your faith different from the faith of the followers of jim jones or david Koresh or brigham young?

faith in and of itself is in vain. what a person believes is just as important as whether or not a person believes. it is only faith in Jesus Christ that brings God’s Life to us human beings.

 

[eddie_too]

a question arose about human deaths due to the action of organized human aggression and about whether the bab and bahuallah ushered in a new era of peace for mankind.

the claim was made that it did. I pointed out that many more millions died since the births of the bab and Bahaullah than died between the birth of Jesus and the birth of the bab.

this claim was challenged. I submit the following web site as a starting place for determining the numbers of deaths in these two distinct time frames.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll.

add them up for yourselves to see the totals of the scholarly estimates.

I only submit this information so that we can get a realistic perception of various claims made by followers of Bahaullah, i.e. that the life of Bahaullah created a more peaceful, fruitful and benevolent world, that the world changed substantively for the better with the birth of either the bab or Bahaullah. if the hundreds of millions subjected to death by various human groups since Bahaullah mean anything, the surely mean that Bahaullah’s existence did little to slow the deaths of innocent human beings by groups possessing the power to inflict death on others.

 

[SteveVH]

This single, undivided community is the most widespread united religious community on the planet, and each member is working towards one Universal Cause, one Common Faith.
info.bahai.org/covenant-of-bahaullah.html

Excuse me? The most widespread united religious community on the planet"? How does 5,000,000 people (0.069% of the worlds population) in comparison to 1.3 billion people in the Catholic Church, spread through very country in the world, constitute the single, most widespread united religious community on the planet? Your visions of grandeur are clouding your rational mind. In fact, in just 150 years, the Baha’i community has splintered into the following:

:black_medium_small_squareeople of Bayan or Bayanis
These are those who believe the true successor of The Bab is Mirza Yahya Subh-e-Azal and not Mirza Hussain Ali Noori (Bahá’u’lláh).

:black_medium_small_squareaheshists
These are those who believe that their leader, Dr. Dahesh – Saleem Moosa El-Awshee is the “Return” of The Báb (Ali Mohammed Shirazi).

:black_medium_small_square:Essence of The Bahá’í Faith
These are those who believe in the coming of the Third Manifestation after Bab and Baha’u’llah.

:black_medium_small_square:Unitarian Bahá’ís
These are those who believe after Baha’u’llah, his younger son Mohammed Ali was his true successor.

:black_medium_small_square:Questioning the Will and Testament of Abdu’l-Bahá

1. Free Bahá’ís
2. Reform Bahá’ís
3. New History Society
   These are those who believe that Will and Testament of Abdu’l-Bahá is a fraudulent document doctored by Shoghi Effendi Rabbani.

:black_medium_small_square:Continuation of Guardianship

1. Orthodox Baha’is (followers of Joel B. Marangella)
2. Baha’is Under the Provisions of the Covenant (followers of Neal Chase)
3. Heart of the Bahá’í Faith (followers of Jacques Soghomonian)
4. Tarbiyat Baha’is (followers of Rex King et al)
   These are those who believe in continuation of Guardianship.

:black_medium_small_square:Heterodox Bahá’ís
These are those who believe that the Guardianship ended with Shoghi Effendi and at present UHJ is the true leader.

:black_medium_small_square:Followers of 5 Elders
These are those who believe that the UHJ requires an infallible Guardian in line with the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh and Abdu’l-Bahá.

:black_medium_small_square:Aqdas Bahais
Aqdas Baha’is take seriously the long-suppressed Kitab-i-Aqdas (Most Holy Book) of Baha’u’llah, and do not consider it an embarrassment. They consider it a crime to have suppressed it and cynically withheld it from religious devotees for a span of 120 years by the world-oriented Wilmette-Haifa sect of Baha’is.

:black_medium_small_square:Qurratis or Ayanis
Qurratiis considered Táhirih/Qurratu’l-'Ayn to be the successor of the passing leader of the Shaykhi School, Siyyid Kazim-i-Rashti.

(From “Sects of Baha’is” 2008-09)

There appears to be no more unity among the Baha’i than there is in Protestant Christianity.

And you cannot say that “each member is working towards one Universal Cause, one Common Faith” any more than I can say that each Catholic is working to bring the kingdom of God to all people on earth, unless you have the ability to read each member’s heart.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Servant19]

Excuse me? The most widespread united religious community on the planet"? How does 5,000,000 people (0.069% of the worlds population) in comparison to 1.3 billion people in the Catholic Church, spread through very country in the world, constitute the single, most widespread united religious community on the planet? Your visions of grandeur are clouding your rational mind. In fact, in just 150 years, the Baha’i community has splintered into the following:

:black_medium_small_squareeople of Bayan or Bayanis
These are those who believe the true successor of The Bab is Mirza Yahya Subh-e-Azal and not Mirza Hussain Ali Noori (Bahá’u’lláh).

:black_medium_small_squareaheshists
These are those who believe that their leader, Dr. Dahesh – Saleem Moosa El-Awshee is the “Return” of The Báb (Ali Mohammed Shirazi).

:black_medium_small_square:Essence of The Bahá’í Faith
These are those who believe in the coming of the Third Manifestation after Bab and Baha’u’llah.

:black_medium_small_square:Unitarian Bahá’ís
These are those who believe after Baha’u’llah, his younger son Mohammed Ali was his true successor.

:black_medium_small_square:Questioning the Will and Testament of Abdu’l-Bahá

1. Free Bahá’ís
2. Reform Bahá’ís
3. New History Society
   These are those who believe that Will and Testament of Abdu’l-Bahá is a fraudulent document doctored by Shoghi Effendi Rabbani.

:black_medium_small_square:Continuation of Guardianship

1. Orthodox Baha’is (followers of Joel B. Marangella)
2. Baha’is Under the Provisions of the Covenant (followers of Neal Chase)
3. Heart of the Bahá’í Faith (followers of Jacques Soghomonian)
4. Tarbiyat Baha’is (followers of Rex King et al)
   These are those who believe in continuation of Guardianship.

:black_medium_small_square:Heterodox Bahá’ís
These are those who believe that the Guardianship ended with Shoghi Effendi and at present UHJ is the true leader.

:black_medium_small_square:Followers of 5 Elders
These are those who believe that the UHJ requires an infallible Guardian in line with the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh and Abdu’l-Bahá.

:black_medium_small_square:Aqdas Bahais
Aqdas Baha’is take seriously the long-suppressed Kitab-i-Aqdas (Most Holy Book) of Baha’u’llah, and do not consider it an embarrassment. They consider it a crime to have suppressed it and cynically withheld it from religious devotees for a span of 120 years by the world-oriented Wilmette-Haifa sect of Baha’is.

:black_medium_small_square:Qurratis or Ayanis
Qurratiis considered Táhirih/Qurratu’l-'Ayn to be the successor of the passing leader of the Shaykhi School, Siyyid Kazim-i-Rashti.

(From “Sects of Baha’is” 2008-09)

There appears to be no more unity among the Baha’i than there is in Protestant Christianity.

And you cannot say that “each member is working towards one Universal Cause, one Common Faith” any more than I can say that each Catholic is working to bring the kingdom of God to all people on earth, unless you have the ability to read each member’s heart.

Peace.

Steve

LOL…
thanks Steve

(you do realise that what you are implying here is that the Baha’i community are liars and are being lied to by the Universal House of Justice when we say that there are no schisms of the Baha’i Faith)

I’ll be honest I hadn’t even heard of a few of those, but I can confidently tell that you got those from an anti-Baha’i website (edit: by the same guy who made the websites JamesCarr visits to learn about the Baha’i Faith, lol) , which has “conveniently” multiplied the numbers of sects by referring to the same group about 3 times using different names, as if they were different sects, but its the same group. Also, some of these groups are no longer around, such as the Qurratis, there might be some Azalis (people of Bayan) around, but I would say no more than a thousand left (all in Iran), and dying rapidly. Daheshists have nothing to do with the Bab (at least not according to their website), looks like a dying group anyway. Only one Unitarian Baha’i leader left now, maybe she’s dead, not sure.

As you can see from a more reliable website:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_divisions

there has only ever been one “division” from the Baha’i Faith and that was with Mason Remey claiming to be the next Guardian of the Baha’i Faith. His group is called by several names, orthodox Baha’is, 5 Elders Baha’is, Tarbiyat etc etc
I just heard last month that the global leader of this group actually lived locally to me in Perth, and died a few months ago without a single successor.

So you see dear friend, one cannot go down the street and find a Baptist Bahai, a Unitarian Baha’i, and an Evangelical Bahai, next to a Catholic Baha’i and an Orthodox Bahai. These are CLEARLY dying groups who are dying because it is absolutely clear that authority lies with the Covenant of Baha’u’llah.

And yes, the numbers are not huge, in terms of Baha’i adherents globally, but they are ALL following one universal Cause and one Common Faith.

You can go to Lumumbashi, Kampala, Vanuatu, Papua New Guinea, London, Colorado, Ho Chi Minh City, Ulaan Bator, Greenland or Santiago and the Baha’is will be saying the same things as me regarding the oneness of God, the oneness of religion and the oneness of the human race, one Common Faith, all in full support of the current Universal House of Justice

.

 

[SteveVH]

LOL…
thanks Steve

(you do realise that what you are implying here is that the Baha’i community are liars and are being lied to by the Universal House of Justice when we say that there are no schisms of the Baha’i Faith)

My intention was certainly not to imply that anyone is lying. But since you mention it, you have more than implied that the Catholic Church is not united, otherwise you could never have made the statement that the Baha’i faith is the “The most widespread united religious community on the planet”. The statement is simply not true and borders on the ridiculous.

I’ll be honest I hadn’t even heard of a few of those, but I can confidently tell that you got those from an anti-Baha’i website (edit: by the same guy who made the websites JamesCarr visits to learn about the Baha’i Faith, lol) , which has “conveniently” multiplied the numbers of sects by referring to the same group about 3 times using different names, as if they were different sects, but its the same group. Also, some of these groups are no longer around, such as the Qurratis, there might be some Azalis (people of Bayan) around, but I would say no more than a thousand left (all in Iran), and dying rapidly. Daheshists have nothing to do with the Bab (at least not according to their website), looks like a dying group anyway. Only one Unitarian Baha’i leader left now, maybe she’s dead, now.

Then thank you for the corrections. I didn’t seek out an anti-Baha’i website. It seemed strange to me that the Baha’i would have no dissenters whatsoever and live in perfect harmony. That is not the case with any religion in which human beings are a part. I had serious doubts that any website to which you would direct me would discuss the issue, considering the claim that there has never been a division so I looked at alternative sites and that is what I found. If it is bogus then I retract my post. If it is even partially true then the statement that there are no divisions within the Baha’i community is patently false.

As you can see from a more reliable website:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_divisions

Wikipedia is a reliable source? You are aware that it can be changed by anyone, correct?
Mind you, I am not saying that the information is not correct, I am just saying that Wikipedia is not normally a source one would quote in order to defend their faith. There are credibility issues due to the nature of the site.

there has only ever been one “division” from the Baha’i Faith

Then it is not true that there has never been a division, at least in one case, right? How is it then that the Universal House of Justice can state that there are none?

And yes, the numbers are not huge, in terms of Baha’i adherents globally, but they are ALL following one universal Cause and one Common Faith.

Well that’s great, Servant, but you speak as if the entire world is changing before our very eyes because of the Baha’i philosophy when the truth is that you are the only ones who believe it.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Servant19]

My intention was certainly not to imply that anyone is lying. But since you mention it, you have more than implied that the Catholic Church is not united, otherwise you could never have made the statement that the Baha’i faith is the “The most widespread united religious community on the planet”. The statement is simply not true and borders on the ridiculous.

Hi Steve, such is the wonder of the internet. My sincere apologies for inadvertently implying disunity in the Catholic Church. I would never say that at all. I see the Catholic Church as being tremendously united, and for that, amongst so many other things, I love you all

I made that statement because I read somewhere (for the life of me I cant remember), but there are some small Pacific islands where the Catholic Church is not evident where the Baha’i Faith is, so in terms of “widespreadness” I made that statement, but nevertheless, I should avoid making competitive statements using words such as “most” and “best” etc etc. I intend no competition with the Church whatsoever dear friend

Then thank you for the corrections. I didn’t seek out an anti-Baha’i website. It seemed strange to me that the Baha’i would have no dissenters whatsoever and live in perfect harmony. That is not the case with any religion in which human beings are a part. I had serious doubts that any website to which you would direct me would discuss the issue, considering the claim that there has never been a division so I looked at alternative sites and that is what I found. If it is bogus then I retract my post. If it is even partially true then the statement that there are no divisions within the Baha’i community is patently false.

I think a lot (if not all) of what you see in the list in that website are misguided individuals who had a falling out with some aspect of the Faith. Authority is authority and some people cannot handle that and become deluded. Other than Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, there is no individual authority in the Baha’i Faith, only institutional authority, and some individuals think they can set off on their own tangent, but this still does not constitute a schism.

The authority with which the leadership of the Baha’i Faith is delineated is beyond question, and that is why these individuals (and sometimes their families) gain no support and the group dies away

Wikipedia is a reliable source? You are aware that it can be changed by anyone, correct?
Mind you, I am not saying that the information is not correct, I am just saying that Wikipedia is not normally a source one would quote in order to defend their faith. There are credibility issues due to the nature of the site.

Yes, of course, dear brother, I know there are credibility issues with Wiki, but thats why I said it is a “more” credible info source on this subject than the website you encountered which is just the same guy, under different guises, writing the same tripe

Then it is not true that there has never been a division, at least in one case, right? How is it then that the Universal House of Justice can state that there are none?

I guess it depends on your definition of the word “schism” or “denomination”. Even Mason Remey who gave it a good old go has since died an anonymous death and as I said, his successor was unbeknownst to me, in Perth and died with no-one ever noticing bar a few people who were aware (who serve on regional Baha’i institutions)

Well that’s great, Servant, but you speak as if the entire world is changing before our very eyes because of the Baha’i philosophy when the truth is that you are the only ones who believe it.

Peace.

Steve

I understand your viewpoint here dear Steve, I really do, and it is easy to get caught up in the exodus of disintegrative forces in the world. Baha’is prefer to contribute as much as they can towards integration, building something sustainable and advancing things. There are so many altruistic and philanthropic advances in society, consciousness has expanded to a global level. No longer do we live in a condition where fear exists of people with different colour skin, different cultures. Every month I see a new patient in my dental practice, Australian born and bred, who visited Iran, IRAN of all places and returned having learned so much.

A humble posture of learning is increasingly being assumed by a wider and wider contingent of souls and when humility and a willingness to learn about others is widespread then understanding and cooperation will inevitably result.

I urge you again to read “Creating a New Mind” dear brother. There is much hope for the future

God bless you!

.

 

[Servant19]

Fine. I’ll put aside everything related to Christianity and Judaism about the Messiah. There are many arguments and counter arguments to the subject you have brought up about them, but that is not my concern. It is what matters to Christians and Jews and you can discuss it with the Christians here, not me who is a Muslim.

I will only speak from a Shia Islamic position. The Bab, the forerunner to Baha’u’llah, fulfilled nothing about the Mahdi of Islam. Do you have an argument against that?

Hi there peace at last.

I guess the only proof I can give you is to read the Writings of the Bab and ask yourself if you feel it is God speaking to you, with prayer-fulness and reverence.

Any explanations I give you in terms of fulfilling prophecies etc will not be acceptable unless you fully open-hearted to such explanations…The seven years, the seed of Fatimih, etc etc, will not be of any use to you I suspect

Salaam al-aykum dear brother.

.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Only one Unitarian Baha’i leader left now, maybe she’s dead, not sure. …

As you can see from a more reliable website:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_divisions

there has only ever been one “division” from the Baha’i Faith and that was with Mason Remey claiming to be the next Guardian of the Baha’i Faith. His group is called by several names, orthodox Baha’is, 5 Elders Baha’is, Tarbiyat etc etc
I just heard last month that the global leader of this group actually lived locally to me in Perth, and died a few months ago without a single successor.
.

The last of the Unitarian Bahais died quite recently. The “5 Elders Baha’i” (it is one man) is not related to the Remey groups.

Given freedom of religion, anyone can at any time set themselves up as a Baha’i sect. But to constitute a movement and a sect in the sociological sense, they have to do something more substantial than that. In this sense, it is quite correct to say that the Baha’i community has avoided the schisms and sect formation that have characterized all previous major religions. This is because the “constitutional” documents are authentic, clear and sufficiently specific to deny legitimacy (and therefore followers) to any rival of the Universal House of Justice.