"one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church"

[ChristopheL]

So Eastern Orthodox then?

Yes. Because I can say that I believe that if any of the church fathers walked into any worshiping service and would feel at home, it would be in the divine liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

And if they were somehow already corrupted, well, then I wouldn’t know, and I guess I’m screwed and have nothing to go on. But I don’t believe so.

 

[ChristopheL]

This type of post is a violation of more forum rules than I can count. It’s been reported.

That’s the lamest cop-out of an argument I ever saw.

 

[ChristopheL]

double-post

 

[Jon_S_1]

Yes. Because I can say that I believe that if any of the church fathers walked into any worshiping service and would feel at home, it would be in the divine liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

And if they were somehow already corrupted, well, then I wouldn’t know, and I guess I’m screwed and have nothing to go on. But I don’t believe so.

Why would you be screwed ??

Even if every church and priest and Bishop disappeared tomorrow you would not be screwed.

Your salvation does not depend on the liturgy. It depends on a heart that seeks God and loves God and pursues him. His church is a very important instrument in that. As long as it’s here it’s essential, but God does not die if the church dies. His payment on the cross is still good and his arms outstretched.

God doesn’t care what language is spoken…he speaks them all.

Which type of Orthodoxy, there are so many competing factions how could you possibly choose the correct one.

Their teaching on acceptability of birth control and remarriage don’t bother you?

 

[Jon_S_1]

That’s the lamest cop-out of an argument I ever saw.

No it’s trying to make sure everyone abides by the rules this forum establishes.

Your abusive language and attacks are not allowed or welcome. I have had hundreds of arguments and debates on here and am happy to do so with you should you choose to apologize and agree to follow the forum rules.

Here are the rules: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2

Specifically these:

Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language. See the Concierge Desk sub-forum for more information

Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.

Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.

 

[adf417]

That’s the lamest cop-out of an argument I ever saw.

What about this part from JonS’s post?

Have a nice day. I pray God removes the hate from your heart.

Do you not want to comment on this part?

Peace!!!

 

[ChristopheL]

Why would you be screwed ??

Even if every church and priest and Bishop disappeared tomorrow you would not be screwed.

Your salvation does not depend on the liturgy.

I don’t consider my salvation as dependend on anything, as if I could actually say at some poin ‘now I’m saved’. Salvation is a journey and mystery to me. But one that I can leanr about trough the church fathers. They defined canon, they were the ones that had the words of the apostles ringing in their ears. So if they were corrupt, what do I know about Jesus or God? Nothing. And then what do I have left? This touchy-feeling deist ‘I feel there is something’-stuff?

However, I do believe they were infused with the Hoy Spirit. That is why I do my best to find the historical church, and Orthodoxy is by no means perfect, but in historicity, Catholicism is might outclassed.

It depends on a heart that seeks God and loves God and pursues him. His church is a very important instrument in that. As long as it’s here it’s essential, but God does not die if the church dies. His payment on the cross is still good and his arms outstretched.

Yet what I know about His payment on the Cross, comes mainly form the church fathers.

Which type of Orthodoxy, there are so many competing factions how could you possibly choose the correct one.

There is only one Eastern Orthodox Church. You can to Greece, the US or Australia, in an Eastern Orthodox Church, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom will be the same. It will be as it has been for over a thousand years.

Their teaching on acceptability of birth control and remarriage don’t bother you?

No. Did it bother the church fathers?

Does it bother you plenty of remarried Catholics take communion, even though they’re not supposed to? So what bothers you more, teaching by the infallible Church on marriage you don’t agree with, or the fact that the infallible Church (or person, Pope, in your case) teaches something, but most people don’t remember it and many more don’t care ?

 

[godisgood77]

Yes. Because I can say that I believe that if any of the church fathers walked into any worshiping service and would feel at home, it would be in the divine liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

And if they were somehow already corrupted, well, then I wouldn’t know, and I guess I’m screwed and have nothing to go on. But I don’t believe so.

Have you been to a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy?

 

[ChristopheL]

Do you not want to comment on this part?

Peace!!!

What should I reply?

‘Thank you for praying for me’? I don’t hate the RCC, I pray for them. Or should I have replied something like that? ‘Yeah, well I pray God guides you back on the straight path!’ Sorry, but I don’t do ‘pissing contests’ in praying.

So I saw no way to reply. Is there something wrong with that?

BTW, we all know it was no real praying intention, just a way to accuse me of being hateful without being seen as having to stoop as low as insults. Let’s not pretend, shall we.

 

[ChristopheL]

Have you been to a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy?

Yes. The Byzantine Rite is the Byzantine Rite, as far as liturgy goes. The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is the same in a Melkite Church as in a Greek-Orthodox Church, apart from the fact the first will pray for the Pope and the latter will not.

 

[Jon_S_1]

What should I reply?

‘Thank you for praying for me’? I don’t hate the RCC, I pray for them. Or should I have replied something like that? ‘Yeah, well I pray God guides you back on the straight path!’ Sorry, but I don’t do ‘pissing contests’ in praying.

So I saw no way to reply. Is there something wrong with that?

BTW, we all know it was no real praying intention, just a way to accuse me of being hateful without being seen as having to stoop as low as insults. Let’s not pretend, shall we.

No it was sincere.

Your first post called me a heretic for being catholic and lambasted the church harshly. I am glad you say you don’t hate the church. Your first post did present that picture to me. Thanks for the correction. And I did and will pray for you.

The liturgies of Eastern Orthodoxy may be the same but they all answer to different Holy Synods that are their regional authorities. I see too much of a Protestant model their for it to be correct. IMO

 

[ChristopheL]

No it was sincere.

Your first post called me a heretic for being catholic and lambasted the church harshly. I am glad you say you don’t hate the church. Your first post did present that picture to me. Thanks for the correction. And I did and will pray for you.

I think I called Vatican II heretical, which it is by the RCC’s own definitions. If I called you a heretic, I apologize.

The liturgies of Eastern Orthodoxy may be the same but they all answer to different Holy Synods that are their regional authorities. I see too much of a Protestant model their for it to be correct. IMO

That the buck stops somewhere, that there is a hierarchy and you can’t just walk over to the next guy who proclaimed himself a pastor and started preaching whatever he likes, means it is nothing like Protestantism.
I have to grant Catholicism that too, there is at least some authority, you can’t just proclaim yourself a catholic pastor and start preaching the virgin birth wasn’t real.

Do the Holy Synods have some radically different teachings? I don’t agree with whatever, I just walk over to the next Orthodox Church where they agree with me? I don’t think so.

Like I said, in the RCC plenty of people disagree with the doctrine, if they even know what it is, but don’t care. You may have centralized the bureaucracy of the church with the Pope, that does not make it one whole Church.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Yes. The Byzantine Rite is the Byzantine Rite, as far as liturgy goes. The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is the same in a Melkite Church as in a Greek-Orthodox Church, apart from the fact the first will pray for the Pope and the latter will not.

Then why not simply transfer into the Melkite Rite?

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think I called Vatican II heretical, which it is by the RCC’s own definitions. If I called you a heretic, I apologize.

.

Please tell me how the RCC standards declare Vatican 2 heresy.

Here is the church’s definition of heresy .

"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

 

[JamesTheJust]

I think I called Vatican II heretical, which it is by the RCC’s own definitions.

Sedecvacantists believe that Vatican II was heretical. Catholics don’t.

 

[ChristopheL]

.

Please tell me how the RCC standards declare Vatican 2 heresy.

Here is the church’s definition of heresy .

"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is directlycontradicted in Unitatis Redintegratio.

‘The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.’

 

[ChristopheL]

Sedecvacantists believe that Vatican II was heretical. Catholics don’t.

Like I’ve already pointed out, what’s a catholic? If you gave catholics a poll test about catechism and dogma, I would wager 90% won’t get half of it right. And if they did, they wouldn’t care (like remarrying and going for communion). Are they catholic?

 

[ChristopheL]

Then why not simply transfer into the Melkite Rite?

Because the only reason I’d pray for the Pope, would be for him to see the error of his ways and that the Lord may have mercy on his soul for the arrogance of proclaiming to be the viccar of Christ.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is directlycontradicted in Unitatis Redintegratio.

‘The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.’

I see no contradiction in that.

Are you saying only catholic priests can baptize? Where do orthodox fall into your understanding of all this?

There is no contradiction. Certainly not in dogma or doctrine. If anything it’s a change in our understanding of a potential for God to work outside the walls of the church.

I mean we KNOW he does that.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Because the only reason I’d pray for the Pope, would be for him to see the error of his ways and that the Lord may have mercy on his soul for the arrogance of proclaiming to be the viccar of Christ.

By what authority can you say the Pope has erred?

Do you have divine revelation?

Are you protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error?

Are you and your opinions infallible?

You know there is a name for people who read the church documents including the Bible and decide for themselves that they know better than the church. We call them Protestants.