"one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church"

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Speaking as a ignorant layman- I invite correction from any Lutherans!

We don’t say the minister ‘power’ or 'authority 's convert anything - let alone bread into the true Body and Blood of our Lord.

God does this!

The Body and Blood are gifts from God for the people of God. The Lord will know when it is His Devine Service, and we know that He has done this for us because in these last days God has spoken to us through his Son.
Ben,

You are saying then that any Pastor who feels “called” in any church can change the bread and wine into the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ? If the criteria is that one “feels called”, when in time did this theological thought start?

PnP
 
I was surprised to see Brother Dimond referred to as a Catholic; but in view of your comment, JamesTheJust, I guess I shouldn’t worry about that. :cool:
 
There certainly are differences of opinion in how to interpret the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity but I think the very title of the Commission reveals much more than some may want to concede.

The Dialogues said nothing about the invalidity of the sacraments in the Lutheran Church but rather affirms mutual belief in the Mass and that only God make a sacrament valid:
"They [Lutheran and Catholic] also agree that the efficacy of believers reception of the Lord cannot be measured by human standards but belongs to the sphere of the free and humanly uncontrollable action of God. raadvankerken.nl/fman/3246.pdf
I have only read relatively little of the entire Dialogue and will seek more answers on the ministry. But I believe that issues of apostolic succession and the papacy suggest that Lutherans accept both.
 
Ben,

You are saying then that any Pastor who feels “called” in any church can change the bread and wine into the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ? If the criteria is that one “feels called”, when in time did this theological thought start?

PnP
No, steido01 in another post provided the Lutheran position on who is called.

And even then, the sacraments are from God - no Lutheran pastor would claim that he ‘changed’ anything. It’s all God.
 
No, steido01 in another post provided the Lutheran position on who is called.

And even then, the sacraments are from God - no Lutheran pastor would claim that he ‘changed’ anything. It’s all God.
Sure Ben, the Priest acts in the person of Christ as the Catechism states below. So, can any pastor of any church denomination who feels “called” act in the person of Christ and thus turn the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ? What if… I decided to open a church in my hometown because I felt called to do so, could I act in the person of Christ and perform such a miracle?

1348 All gather together. Christians come together in one place for the Eucharistic assembly. At its head is Christ himself, the principal agent of the Eucharist. He is high priest of the New Covenant; it is he himself who presides invisibly over every Eucharistic celebration. It is in representing him that the bishop or priest acting in the person of Christ the head (in persona Christi capitis) presides over the assembly, speaks after the readings, receives the offerings, and says the Eucharistic Prayer. All have their own active parts to play in the celebration, each in his own way: readers, those who bring up the offerings, those who give communion, and the whole people whose “Amen” manifests their participation.
 
Sure Ben, the Priest acts in the person of Christ
Agreed. As Christ Himself commanded! 🙂
So, can any pastor of any church denomination who feels “called” act in the person of Christ and thus turn the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ? What if… I decided to open a church in my hometown because I felt called to do so, could I act in the person of Christ and perform such a miracle?
No. I tried to head off this question by posting from the Confessions earlier in he thread… Firstly, Lutherans would not be looking to “any pastor of any church denomination,” we’d be looking for a Lutheran pastor who, by virtue of having been ordained through the laying on of hands and professing the Apostolic Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic Church as recorded in Holy Scripture and rightly reflected in the Confessions, is “rightly called” to administer the Sacraments (whew, what a sentence!). Laypersons cannot administer the Eucharist. It has nothing at all to do with “feeling,” but with being rightly called. We’ll leave that “feeling” business to the Protestants… 😃
 
I really don’t want to get in deep here, but just one little comment: the word “transubstantiation” is used in two slightly different ways. Some Catholics use it to mean just what Catholics are required to believe and no more; some Catholics understand the term to go slightly beyond what Catholics are required to believe, in terms of how the change takes place. (Similar to the situation with the word “Purgatory”.)
I do not think transubstantiation can be called a description of “how the change takes place.” All we can really say about that is that the change is effected by the miraculous power of God. Transubstantiation is a description of the “what.” One key element of the doctrine is an affirmation that there is a change that takes place rather than an exchange. The latter belief is called “annihilation,” which is the belief that the bread and wine are replaced with the body and blood of Christ. Transubstantiation, to the contrary, is the belief that the bread and wine are changed (by a conversion of substance) into the body and blood of Christ. This means that the Lord’s Supper is no longer bread and wine, and has become the true body and blood of the Lord though retaining the sensible appearance of the outward bread and wine. Regardless of the particular terms of substance and accident, this is the substance (if I may use that word) of the doctrine of transubstantiation, and it is the common doctrine of the Catholic Church.

There are secondary doctrines that go along with transubstantiation, such as concomitance, but I can’t think of any that are disputed by Eastern Christians. The Confession of Dositheus seems to attest to that.
Not to split hairs, but on this forum I generally take “Catholic” (as distinct from “catholic”) to refer strictly to the Roman Communion (unless otherwise specified, e.g. posters who are Anglo-Catholic).
Yes, the term “Catholic” with a capital C standing without any additional modifier by convention refers to those Churches in communion with Rome.
OK. I was just going by what I had read from Orthodox bloggers and the like.
Some Orthodox out of a reactionary opposition to Catholic doctrine end up saying things that are less than Orthodox. Another common example would be a denial of original sin. The same thing happens commonly with Catholics contra Protestants. A common example is a denial that Catholicism teaches predestination. The cause of this is people looking for divisions where there are none, or at least they are much smaller than the polemicists would like to think they are. For the minor differences, the best thing is to outline the distinctions where they exist but focus on the other, more pressing issues rather than honing in on minutiae that most laymen shouldn’t care about and beating them over the head with it.
 
The 1672 Synod of Jerusalem was, first and foremost, a response to Calvinist influences within the Orthodox Churches.

Secondarily, it was a response to the Orthodox perception of Lutheranism, which was barely distinguishable from Calvinism, as far as they were concerned. This was likely due to the effects of Crypto-Calvinism. Orthodoxy wasn’t so much responding to the actual Lutheran understanding of the Lord’s Supper as it was (rightfully) condemning the Calvinistic view that the Orthodox perceived to be the Lutheran view - no thanks to the “Lutheran” Calvinists who were publicly preaching at the time. I think the section you posted demonstrates a misunderstanding of the Lutheran position by the Synod. They (mistakenly) didn’t see a noticeable difference between Luther and Calvin. This is seen elsewhere in the Synod’s decrees:

Obviously, Luther and Calvin are not at all alike in regards to the Eucharist.

Of course, all of this doesn’t necessarily mean that the East is more inclined toward Sacramental Union or Transubstantiation. I’d think the Orthodox would refuse being grouped with either group - they’d probably claim to the “right” view instead. 😃 😉

I recommend this excerpt from the Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogues, which more accurately reflects the Lutheran view. Note what both communions profess together concerning the Eucharist:

helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lut…text.html#euch
Your observation is a fair one that Lutheranism and Calvinism are not the same and their eucharistic doctrine is very different, but for the issues the council was primarily concerned with, Lutherans and Calvinists fell under most of the same criticisms. Both groups denied the authority of the Church in the way it was understood by the Orthodox and held common doctrines in opposition to Orthodoxy (e.g. sola scriptura, sola fide, a denial of prayers for the dead). The council was not primarily about the eucharist.

Nevertheless, the Orthodox condemnation of Lutheran eucharistic doctrine is not just based on a mistaken conflation of sacramental union with the Calvinist doctrine. The Confession is mistaken when it says the Lutheran doctrine is that of a hypostatic union, though it is hard to blame them for saying this when the Lutherans insisted so strongly on the analogy of the Incarnation. However, the Confession denies the principles of the Lutheran sacramental union and explicitly teaches transubstantiation in the same language that the Latin Church uses. It’s difficult for me to see how you read the Confession and say that it is not clearly taking a side. In addition to this issue, the Confession is also condemning other Lutheran positions. For example, it strongly affirms concomitance (which is not exactly denied in the Book of Concord, but it is in places implied to be denied). It also denies the Lutheran principle nihil habet rationem sacramenti extra usum a Christo institutum, which is elaborated at length in the Formula of Concord.

Your link leads to a page saying I lack permissions.
 
It’s difficult for me to see how you read the Confession and say that it is not clearly taking a side.
That’s a fair critique - As far as the Eucharist, our confessional documents don’t end the debate with certainty. Lutherans are still debating and still falling into various theological traps - some quite silly, and we should appreciate correction.

But this very Lutheran debate is more evidence of our Lutheran assertion that Eucharist is a Holy Mystery.

That if German Lutherans can’t pin something down with a typical German taxonomy, and the whole Lutheran world still hasn’t over the years is really good news! There’s a Mystery here!
 
That’s a fair critique - As far as the Eucharist, our confessional documents don’t end the debate with certainty. Lutherans are still debating and still falling into various theological traps - some quite silly, and we should appreciate correction.

But this very Lutheran debate is more evidence of our Lutheran assertion that Eucharist is a Holy Mystery.

That if German Lutherans can’t pin something down with a typical German taxonomy, and the whole Lutheran world still hasn’t over the years is really good news! There’s a Mystery here!
Catholics agree whole-heartedly that its a mystery! It’s certainly nothing other than a mystery that God could transform mere bread and wine into his very body and blood! As the Confession of Dositheus says,

Further, we believe that by the word “transubstantiation” the manner is not explained, by which the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord, — for that is altogether incomprehensible and impossible, except by God Himself, and those who imagine to do so are involved in ignorance and impiety, — but that the bread and the wine are after the consecration, not typically, nor figuratively, nor by superabundant grace, nor by the communication or the presence of the Divinity alone of the Only-begotten, transmuted into the Body and Blood of the Lord; neither is any accident of the bread, or of the wine, by any conversion or alteration, changed into any accident of the Body and Blood of Christ, but truly, and really, and substantially, doth the bread become the true Body Itself of the Lord, and the wine the Blood Itself of the Lord, as is said above.

From a close reading the Formula of Concord, I have to say that I think the Lutheran confessions stake out a very specific eucharistic doctrine which is as follows. The Christ becomes substantially present in the Lord’s Supper with the words of consecration uttered by the priest, not by a conversion of substance, but by a union of the substance of Christ’s body with the substance of the bread and the substance of Christ’s blood with the substance of the wine. This presence is not by a hypostatic union (as the Divine and human natures of Christ are united in a single Divine Person), nor by any kind of local presence, but nonetheless by a true formal presence, which is called sacramental union. The duration of the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine lasts from the consecration only to the end of the Holy Supper in which they are consecrated, for apart from the use instituted by Christ, the bread and wine contain nothing of a sacrament and Christ is not present.

While the Lutherans did not agree among themselves on all these points, I believe this is the compromise doctrine settled on in the Formula of Concord. This teaching is both “consecrationist” and “cessationist.” Lutherans beleive that the Scripture is the sole rule of faith, not the Confessions, but those Lutherans who teach that the Book of Concord is binding as a faithful exposition of Scripture are bound to its teachings. It is my personal opinion that Lutherans should back away from a dogmatic stance toward their confessions, since they use language which is uneccesarily inflammatory and will be an obstacle to dialogue and reunion. It also appears that the confessions are not a totally accurate representation of actual Lutheran beliefs. For example, the LCMS has historically been receptionist, which is repudiated by the confessions (and all the Lutheran posters on CAF for that matter). For another example, the majority of CAF Lutherans appear to approve the practice of reservation of the sacrament, which is contradicted by the principles of the Confession and the Lutheran tradition.

Despite lingering disagreements, we can all celebrate a common belief in many important doctrines, chief of which is the Real Presence.
Apologies for the broken link. Attempt number two: helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html

I’m having difficulty with the direct link; you’ll have to scroll to the section pertaining to the Eucharist. :o
The document does say that the Orthodox agree for the most part with the Lutherans and the doctrine of sacramental union taught in the Formula of Concord. However, this is a complete repudiation of the Confession of Dositheus. I would say that the 1672 Pan-Orthodox Council of Jerusalem has more weight and authority than the 2006 International Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission. This document also “takes sides” in that just as the Confession of Dositheus clearly took sides with the Catholic position in a very explicit and lengthy explanation, the Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission rejects the Catholic position and sides with the Lutheran position of sacramental union (which is, in fact, a metaphysical explanation) just as explicitly. I guess we could look into the history of transubstantiation in Eastern Orthodoxy to decide what the traditional teaching is. I have not researched it very extensively, but my own judgment is that a rejection of the principle stems more from anti-Latin prejudice or at least a capitulation from former Orthodox teaching than authentic tradition.
 
The document does say that the Orthodox agree for the most part with the Lutherans and the doctrine of sacramental union taught in the Formula of Concord. However, this is a complete repudiation of the Confession of Dositheus. I would say that the 1672 Pan-Orthodox Council of Jerusalem has more weight and authority than the 2006 International Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission. This document also “takes sides” in that just as the Confession of Dositheus clearly took sides with the Catholic position in a very explicit and lengthy explanation, the Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission rejects the Catholic position and sides with the Lutheran position of sacramental union (which is, in fact, a metaphysical explanation) just as explicitly. I guess we could look into the history of transubstantiation in Eastern Orthodoxy to decide what the traditional teaching is. I have not researched it very extensively, but my own judgment is that a rejection of the principle stems more from anti-Latin prejudice or at least a capitulation from former Orthodox teaching than authentic tradition.
I admit I have not researched it very extensively either – indeed, I don’t know if anyone here could be called an expert on these matters. But having said that, I believe we are in danger of leading readers into extremely wrong ideas about the Orthodox, so perhaps we should look for a commentary – from perhaps a well-respected Orthodox scholar – about those documents. (Hopefully the Orthodox would afford us the same considerations if the situation were reversed. :))
 
Anecdotally; there was a time that Catholic and Lutheran were forced to worship together by royal decree
“Catholic priests and Lutheran preachers were commanded to use the church jointly”,
How would one know when Christ was present or not in the Sacrament?

Interesting reading on an incident of Lutheran iconoclasm at Copenhagen cathedral. Peculiar way of lowering “St Mary” honor to that of “Our Lady”. Odd that many Lutheran parishes are named Our Lady in Europe and none in north America. The reaction to Marian feasts. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Our_Lady_(Copenhagen
 
Anecdotally; there was a time that Catholic and Lutheran were forced to worship together by royal decree
I’m not denying your claim, I just can’t see how you think it’s an argument in your favor. (Consider if I were to reference, as if it supported my case vis-a-vis the Orthodox, the fact that various Polish kings pressured or forced Orthodox to come into communion with Rome.)
 
I admit I have not researched it very extensively either – indeed, I don’t know if anyone here could be called an expert on these matters. But having said that, I believe we are in danger of leading readers into extremely wrong ideas about the Orthodox, so perhaps we should look for a commentary – from perhaps a well-respected Orthodox scholar – about those documents. (Hopefully the Orthodox would afford us the same considerations if the situation were reversed. :))
Yes, although an Orthodox scholar could be mistaken or guilty of backpedaling as well. 😉
 
I’m not denying your claim, I just can’t see how you think it’s an argument in your favor. (Consider if I were to reference, as if it supported my case vis-a-vis the Orthodox, the fact that various Polish kings pressured or forced Orthodox to come into communion with Rome.)
We know that secular pressure / King of Prussia on the Church produced the union of Lutheran and Reformed churches in Germany in the 1800’s. I wasn’t aware that Orthodox and Catholic were forced to worship together, also.

My point is that the sacraments were administered to the faithful in Denmark, Germany and Poland regardless if the priest was Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed or Orthodox.
 
Many of the early church Fathers both east and west write profoundly in regards to the substance change of the Eucharist.They describe transubstantiation at length without ever using the term. The Orthodox can not deny these writings that give support and confirm a (transubstantiation) substance change.

I’m finding a contradiction of Lutherans and the Orthodox church’s for the fact Lutherans are inventing new doctrines to follow by men that conflicts with reasons why Luther left the Catholic Church. Are Lutherans re-inventing or redefining church doctrine from a new found infallible Concords and doctrines they find themselves holding as authority over them? That conflicts with the reasons why Lutheranism began, by rejecting the authority Jesus Christ Himself built upon Rock.

While the Orthodox independent church’s have no visible head to authorize any new terms relating to Church doctrines in order to defend them in every age ( against man made new ideologies, that have attacked them for example Communism etc.) thus they remain stagnant to the 7 Church councils, mainly due to their lack of communion among other Byzantine (Orthodox) church’s to include rejecting communion with Peter (Popes) and the bishops in full communion with the Pope in the East and the West.

Trans. Never attempts to change the apostolic biblical faith but confirms that a change has occurred. Any adding or subtracting from this mystical substance change falls away from the divine teaching of Jesus and the apostolic faith written and Traditionally practiced and handed down to us from the apostles confirmed by the Popes And Bishops who succeeded them.

The miracle that God has graced us with the transubstantiation change of the species of bread and wine remaining to our flesh (senses), Jesus reveals this divine teaching to those disciples who rejected His Teaching, when Jesus reveals, " it is the Spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of No avail (John 6
 
I’m finding a contradiction of Lutherans and the Orthodox church’s for the fact Lutherans are inventing new doctrines to follow by men that conflicts with reasons why Luther left the Catholic Church. Are Lutherans re-inventing or redefining church doctrine from a new found infallible Concords and doctrines they find themselves holding as authority over them? That conflicts with the reasons why Lutheranism began, by rejecting the authority Jesus Christ Himself built upon Rock.
According to the document at hand, Lutherans and Catholics agree on the Eucharist
48.Catholic and Lutheran Christians together confess the real and true presence of the Lord in the Eucharist.
56.Catholic and Lutheran Christians together recognize that in the Eucharist Jesus Christ “is present as the crucified who died for our sins and rose again for our justification, as the once-for-all sacrifice for the sins of the world”.42
62.Lutheran and Catholic Christians confess together that in the Eucharist the body and blood of the Lord are really received, either for salvation or for condemnation (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:27-29). They confess that the believing reception of the eucharistic bread and wine gives personal union with Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior They also agree that the efficacy of believers reception of the Lord cannot be measured by human standards but belongs to the sphere of the free and humanly uncontrollable action of God.
 
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