"one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church"

[PRmerger]

According to the document at hand, Lutherans and Catholics agree on the Eucharist

Just like Catholics and Lutherans agree with Muslims on Monotheism.

And Lutherans, Catholics and the Seventh Day Adventists agree that there are 27 books in the New Testament.

There is much that all of us seekers agree upon!

And, sadly, much where we diverge.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Just like Catholics and Lutherans agree with Muslims on Monotheism.

And Lutherans, Catholics and the Seventh Day Adventists agree that there are 27 books in the New Testament.

There is much that all of us seekers agree upon!

And, sadly, much where we diverge.

The Catholic Commission on Unity states that Lutherans believe the same on the Mass to not longer justify separation.

 

[PRmerger]

The Catholic Commission on Unity states that Lutherans believe the same on the Mass to not longer justify separation.

Come on in, EC!

Join us at the Table–the Table that confesses that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ.

Are you willing to confess this?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Come on in, EC!

Join us at the Table–the Table that confesses that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ.

Are you willing to confess this?

Yes, the Pope is the leader of the Church

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, the Pope is the leader of the Church

Excellent.

As I said, come on in. The water’s holy.

Now, just to clarify: does the “leader of the Church” = “the vicar of Christ” in your lexicon?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Lutherans have been discussing reunion with the Pope going back to John23. Pope Benedict received the Commission’s findings. My understanding of the Lutheran World Federation is that they are eagerly awaiting reunion with Rome.

 

[PRmerger]

Lutherans have been discussing reunion with the Pope going back to John23. Pope Benedict received the Commission’s findings. My understanding of the Lutheran World Federation is that they are eagerly awaiting reunion with Rome.

Is that addressing my question?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Is that addressing my question?

Could Lutherans call the Pope the Vicar of Christ? Absolutely

 

[benjohnson]

Could Lutherans call the Pope the Vicar of Christ? Absolutely

Certainly, there’s nothing prohibiting calling him a "Vicar of Christ, out of respect, by any Lutheran.

Be be careful… the Lutheran idea of “Vicar of Christ” is much different than the Catholic idea, with one of the more difficult parts being a claim for the title to assume universal and immediate jurisdiction.

newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Certainly, there’s nothing prohibiting calling him a "Vicar of Christ, out of respect, by any Lutheran.

Be be careful… the Lutheran idea of “Vicar of Christ” is much different than the Catholic idea, with one of the more difficult parts being a claim for the title to assume universal and immediate jurisdiction.

newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm

Agree that infallibility must be redefined by Rome.

 

[PRmerger]

Certainly, there’s nothing prohibiting calling him a "Vicar of Christ, out of respect, by any Lutheran.

That’s what I thought.

Be be careful… the Lutheran idea of “Vicar of Christ” is much different than the Catholic idea, with one of the more difficult parts being a claim for the title to assume universal and immediate jurisdiction.

newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm

Yep.

Agree that infallibility must be redefined by Rome.

Annnddd, that’s why your obfuscation was so glaring.

That you are unwilling to assent to the CC in this matter is a clarion sign that you are not yet ready to join us at our Table.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

According to the document at hand, Lutherans and Catholics agree on the Eucharist

We agree on the True Presence no doubt, but you have no Keys from heaven that posses the authority on earth to bind and loose on earth to defend the apostolic doctrine of True presence against atheist, communism, relativism, humanism, science, Darwinism etc. That all attacked the true presence doctrine. Transubstantiation silenced them

Your Concord doctrine opens itself up to ridicule to these enemies of the true presence, for it suspends faith in the mystery, while transubstantiation becomes an act of faith that leaves no doubt that God has done this miracle and God dwells with the human race.

I never question ones faith in the true presence, such as the document you provided. But when asked to give an account for my faith in the true presence, I find your document becoming a commentary of the true presence which I can agree, but it does not carry with it a binding authority on earth for all believers. IF it binds Lutherans? Why do Lutherans fall under a document of authority that appears to be taken as an infallible teaching over them, when they left the apostolic authority that has the infallible protection of the doctrine in the true presence?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

We agree on the True Presence no doubt, but you have no Keys from heaven that posses the authority on earth to bind and loose on earth to defend the apostolic doctrine of True presence against atheist, communism, relativism, humanism, science, Darwinism etc. That all attacked the true presence doctrine. Transubstantiation silenced them

Your Concord doctrine opens itself up to ridicule to these enemies of the true presence, for it suspends faith in the mystery, while transubstantiation becomes an act of faith that leaves no doubt that God has done this miracle and God dwells with the human race.

I never question ones faith in the true presence, such as the document you provided. But when asked to give an account for my faith in the true presence, I find your document becoming a commentary of the true presence which I can agree, but it does not carry with it a binding authority on earth for all believers. IF it binds Lutherans? Why do Lutherans fall under a document of authority that appears to be taken as an infallible teaching over them, when they left the apostolic authority that has the infallible protection of the doctrine in the true presence?

On the church’s apostolicity, the dialogue works within the horizon of the Lutheran-Catholic consensus on justification by the grace of Christ and agreement in confessing the work of the Holy Spirit in gathering believers into the church. From this basis and notwithstanding remaining differences, Lutherans and Catholics agree at a basic level on what makes a church apostolic and they acknowledge, each with characteristic accents, the true apostolicity of each other’s churches.
lutheranupress.org/Books/…-of-the-Church

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

EvangelCatholic:
Evangelization is done on many levels, it is distinct from the one holy apostolic succession let us be clear here.

What is maintained within Lutheranism is Ecclesiastical, that is is subject to change.

You compare Catholic doctrine that is never subject to change.

The Concords eloquently find agreement on shared belief’s, but these are never Ecumenical. They do not reach the Church’s standard on Ecumenism. What we have is a dialogue of shared belief’s, as you have presented, hopefully with an ecumenical effort of reconciliation. Yet the apple is never the orange.

For example, the Orthodox and Lutheran dialogue can never be Ecumenical. One is trying to evangelize the other or convert the other. Simply for the fact one is an orange the other an apple. There cannot be an ecumenical dialogue between them. Because the Orthodox is Catholic and the other professes to be Catholic. The dialogue is not Ecumenical for the fact that neither of the two can cast a vote for each community in matters of faith, simply there is no communion between the two parties.

I don’t question the ecumenical efforts being put forth, for with out them reconciliation becomes difficult.

In short neither the Catholic Church nor the Orthodox Church will be Abel to accept Lutheranism in the present tense as a different church holding to some of the same belief’s within our communions.

Presently we have Lutherans who have reconciled with the Catholic Church. It is here where the Ecumenical dialogue combined with efforts between the reconciling Lutheran with the Catholic Church is reached, because both are of the same Catholic Communion of faith.

Hypathetically speaking, If a Lutheran remained Catholic in every way, when the separation occurred, and only fell out of communion with the Popes, we would be having an Ecumenical dialogue as we Catholics do with the Orthodox who are of the same communion with us in every way but in schism, not separated.

The separation makes an orange and an apple, a schism diseased the tree that gives the same fruit.

Peace be with you

 

[Peter_J]

EvangelCatholic, perhaps your brethren in the LCMS put it best when they promise “renunciation of unionism and syncretism of every description”.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
I’m not denying your claim, I just can’t see how you think it’s an argument in your favor. (Consider if I were to reference, as if it supported my case vis-a-vis the Orthodox, the fact that various Polish kings pressured or forced Orthodox to come into communion with Rome.)

We know that secular pressure / King of Prussia on the Church produced the union of Lutheran and Reformed churches in Germany in the 1800’s. I wasn’t aware that Orthodox and Catholic were forced to worship together, also.

My point is that the sacraments were administered to the faithful in Denmark, Germany and Poland regardless if the priest was Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed or Orthodox.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean but the highlighted statement. But it is well attested that large numbers of Orthodox came into communion with Rome (aka “became Catholic” … not meaning any offense to Orthodox and protestants who call themselves “Catholic”) in the Union of Brest and other such events. I don’t think we need to review those events here.

 

[benjohnson]

Hypathetically speaking, If a Lutheran remained Catholic in every way, when the separation occurred, and only fell out of communion with the Popes, we would be having an Ecumenical dialogue

While it’s certainly true we Lutherans have been rather wayward over the last 500 years, and I will say that only a few of our churches could rightly be called ‘catholic’.

But, It’s here where I get to poke our Catholic friends and remind them of their novel dogma that have been promulgated over the last few years. That if the Catholic church were to also remain unchanged, our ecumenical dialog would be much more fruitful. I daresay the Orthodox probably also object to the new Catholic dogma as well.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Evangelization is done on many levels, it is distinct from the one holy apostolic succession let us be clear here.

What is maintained within Lutheranism is Ecclesiastical, that is is subject to change.

You compare Catholic doctrine that is never subject to change.

The Concords eloquently find agreement on shared belief’s, but these are never Ecumenical. They do not reach the Church’s standard on Ecumenism. What we have is a dialogue of shared belief’s, as you have presented, hopefully with an ecumenical effort of reconciliation. Yet the apple is never the orange.

For example, the Orthodox and Lutheran dialogue can never be Ecumenical. One is trying to evangelize the other or convert the other. Simply for the fact one is an orange the other an apple. There cannot be an ecumenical dialogue between them. Because the Orthodox is Catholic and the other professes to be Catholic. The dialogue is not Ecumenical for the fact that neither of the two can cast a vote for each community in matters of faith, simply there is no communion between the two parties.

I don’t question the ecumenical efforts being put forth, for with out them reconciliation becomes difficult.

In short neither the Catholic Church nor the Orthodox Church will be Abel to accept Lutheranism in the present tense as a different church holding to some of the same belief’s within our communions.

Presently we have Lutherans who have reconciled with the Catholic Church. It is here where the Ecumenical dialogue combined with efforts between the reconciling Lutheran with the Catholic Church is reached, because both are of the same Catholic Communion of faith.

Hypathetically speaking, If a Lutheran remained Catholic in every way, when the separation occurred, and only fell out of communion with the Popes, we would be having an Ecumenical dialogue as we Catholics do with the Orthodox who are of the same communion with us in every way but in schism, not separated.

The separation makes an orange and an apple, a schism diseased the tree that gives the same fruit.

Peace be with you

I am not sure what you mean by “ecumenical” since the Dialogue of 50 years was held under the auspices of the U.S. Bishops’ Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs and the USA National Committee of the Lutheran World Federation.

I think there is an attempt to minimize what is quite significant and would recommend you read the document ‘From Conflict to Communion’] first and then comment. It is a rather long document that I am still working through myself but it identifies where Catholics and Lutherans agree on doctrine and points out that these beliefs are church-uniting.

This is a serious joint effort of Lutherans and Catholics to reconcile.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

EvangelCatholic, perhaps your brethren in the LCMS put it best when they promise “renunciation of unionism and syncretism of every description”.

Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church is involved in “unionism and syncretism” by dialogging with Lutherans?

 

[Stilldreamn]

It seems a lot of the dialogue is understanding the meaning of words. If Catholics say that “A” = “X”, and Lutherans say “B” = “X”, can it be agreed that “A” and “B” are the same? Maybe not. In the case of the Eucharist, it looks like we agree on the doctrine of the Real Presence, but not on whether the RP is a reality in both cases because of practice.

What would a reconciled Western church look like? I would think it would look like the RCC, with perhaps some tolerance in traditional Lutheran liturgical practices, hymnody and traditions that did not conflict with Catholic ones.

We are quite a long way from reaching that level of understanding.